Mafia V: The Cult of Sekham

[MadTheSwine]

@SnakesCatLady

The part where it says:

Is that the part you are talking about? Give me a break, Mad, do you think we expect you to role-claim as a Cultist?

If you want to help your case, you might start with explaining the contradictions in your posts. Saying something and denying it doesn’t help any.

Yes, that is the part…figure it out.

I don’t want or need your advice on how to help my case…thanks though.

Do I think you expect me to role-claim cultist? Yeah thats exactly what I think :rolleyes: here…I’ll spell it out for you

A-N-Y c-u-l-t-i-s-t w-i-t-h t-h-i-s m-a-n-y v-o-t-e-s a-g-a-i-n-s-t h-i-m/h-e-r w-o-u-l-d h-a-v-e a-l-r-e-a-d-y m-a-d-e a p-o-w-e-r r-o-l-e c-l-a-i-m.
I am not a cultist…I am a vanilla town.There will be no role claim.

I could pull a Winston and hurt our town further by false claiming and forcing someone to counter simply for selfish want of hoping to stay in the game…or how bout an Idle? Scream over and over again I AM TOWN til I am blue in the face…course, come to think of it, that actually worked in M4(barely)…zuma do something!

[HazelNutCoffee]

I find it odd that you would prescribe a certain behavior pattern to all Cultists.

Not all Cultists make false role claims when they are about to be dunked. Kat didn’t, for one. In other games as well, there have been Cultists that protested their innocence to the end without role-claiming anything. Your refusal to addess your contradictions is not helping.

Your arguments for you being town has been as follows:

You “hoped” that Hal had investigated you and left breadcrumbs about your innocence.

You cited Arizona trying to instigate a quarrel between you and storyteller. (This is the only piece of evidence that I find even mildly convincing, although I really don’t think it definitively proves anything either way.)

You argue that any scum would have role-claimed by now. You are not, ergo, you are not scum. Oh, if only scum tells were so simple.

[MadTheSwine]

@HazelNutCoffee

I find it odd that you would prescribe a certain behavior pattern to all Cultists.

Not all Cultists make false role claims when they are about to be dunked. Kat didn’t, for one. In other games as well, there have been Cultists that protested their innocence to the end without role-claiming anything. Your refusal to addess your contradictions is not helping.

Your arguments for you being town has been as follows:

You “hoped” that Hal had investigated you and left breadcrumbs about your innocence.

You cited Arizona trying to instigate a quarrel between you and storyteller. (This is the only piece of evidence that I find even mildly convincing, although I really don’t think it definitively proves anything either way.)

You argue that any scum would have role-claimed by now. You are not, ergo, you are not scum. Oh, if only scum tells were so simple.

I have no idea why Kat did not role claim,the scum are probably asking the same thing on scumboard.My feeling is she is just too damn nice.
In every other game that I have played,ever single scum that was about to be killed, that could make a believable claim, did so.Usually early in the game(like its early in this game for instance).I could claim monk,prophet,apprentice or whatever else there is available, in hopes of drawing out a power role.

As far as my “contradiction” like I said…I hoped there was something there…there wasn’t…makes my job a bit tougher, but I’ll keep trying.

[sachertorte]

@MadTheSwine

I could claim monk,prophet,apprentice or whatever else there is available, in hopes of drawing out a power role.

(bold mine)
That would be interesting!

[MadTheSwine]

@sachertorte

(bold mine)
That would be interesting!

:smack:

[Captain_Klutz]

@Captain Klutz

I would hope that the Oracle did not waste an investigation on Hockey Monkey to verify her Alchemist claim. The Alchemist investigates simply as ‘non believer’, which doesn’t actually verify it. However, the Alchemist claim is verified very easily, by the absence of a counter claim.

In reply, #1834

@Idle Thoughts

I wouldn’t really call this a “verification” by any means. If someone role claimed Oracle (predeath of Hal, of course…and made by someone who was most assuredly NOT Hal), I wouldn’t really have wanted Hal to say “No, no, he/she’s lying. I’m the Oracle!”.

Really, keeping one’s mouth shut and mum in that situation is for the best, I feel.

Sure, Oracle/Apprentice/Priest/Disciple should not counter claim. You may note that I specified “Alchemist”.

But, #1845

@Blaster Master

Is it possible for there to be more than one person holding a single role.
For example, could there be more than one alchemist?
I am not asking if there are, but I don’t think there is anything in your rules that precludes the possibility.
If it IS possible, would you mind posting that in the game thread?

So, to answer your question, there could be more than one Alchemist. This is true of all roles.

Ouch. So the Alchemist can be claimed by any Cultist - it can’t be verified and can’t even be reliably tested.

There was a similar role in M2 - the Miller (role blocker) and the rules specified that there could be up to 2 of them, so having multiple role blockers is a possibility. However, I would be surprised if there was more than one (I would be even more surprised if there were multiple Crusaders or Psychopaths).

#1853

@sachertorte

Hmm, someone asked if there could be more than Alchemist. I must admit, I’ve been operating under the logic that powerroles were unique. I can see the possiblity of more than one alchemist being non-game-breaking (very anti-town, but not game breaking). Plus the fact that someone thought to ask BM the question makes me think that someone who is not HM asked the question. Specifically, the phase “If it IS possible, would you mind posting that in the game thread?”
I can see HM asking this if she false roleclaimed.
I can’t see a non-Hockey Monkey alchemist asking this to see there could be a definitive conclusion about Hockey Monkey. The conditional of the request is really off to me. In other words, if I were asking, I would just ask. The asker seems only concerned if it is possible for multiple alchemists. The only person who stands to benefit from this is a false roleclaiming Hockey Monkey.

I can also see an Alchemist Hockey Monkey asking this question. I stated that if the role claim was false then it would be revealed by a counter claim from the real Alchemist. If there could be multiple Alchemists then this logic doesn’t hold. So whether Hockey Monkey’s claim is true or false, it is still in her interests for everyone to know if multiple Alchemists are possible.

My feeling is that I will believe the claim until another Alchemist turns up.

[Captain_Klutz]

From fluiddruid #1675

@Captain Klutz

Your Day 2 vote for Malacandra looked like bandwagon starting because the reason for the vote looked flimsy.

In reply:

@fluiddruid

Bandwagoning is a completely different charge than bad logic or voting for the wrong reasons. That’s why I’m pointing out that “starting a bandwagon” is a completely meaningless term unless it’s applied to a small group rather than a single individual. Bandwagoning is suspect when a bunch of people pile on to a vote and cause a lynch of a townie, particularly on short grounds and in a short period of time; it doesn’t apply in this case.

Perhaps bandwagoning isn’t the correct term. What I mean is that it looked like a flimsy vote in an attempt to establish some momentum to Malacandra, so that others could think something like “there’s already 2 votes and he’s a very suspicious character, I might as well make my vote count and vote for him too”.

And I said your vote looked “flimsy”, as I explained in #1666 . Would you care to respond?

[Queuing]

So MadtheSwine say we choose to believe you. That your contradictions were not really contradictions, but just that you hoped something. Say it makes sense that every single scum would role claim. Say the breadcrumb wasn’t you, but sachertorte, or malacandra or maybe even me (even though he did say he thought I was town, something neither you or mal can say).

Say we believe all that.

What do we do next? Whom should we go after?

I can’t see you saying Hockey Monkey as why would we believe you and not her? So lay out a case for someone else. Convince us not to vote for you with more then just so-called scum tells that you aren’t doing.

We get that you have work problems and are busy. That is why the Day lasts 5 days. To give ALL of us time to read and look at things, to ponder the remarks of others. You have not done this. I am going back to my reasons for voting for Scuba Ben. You have done nothing to help the town. All you have done is complain about us going after you and saying things like “am I that stupid?” basically. NOT good enough!

Give me a reason to not vote for you, rather then a reason to.

[fluiddruid]

@MadTheSwine

A-N-Y c-u-l-t-i-s-t w-i-t-h t-h-i-s m-a-n-y v-o-t-e-s a-g-a-i-n-s-t h-i-m/h-e-r w-o-u-l-d h-a-v-e a-l-r-e-a-d-y m-a-d-e a p-o-w-e-r r-o-l-e c-l-a-i-m.
I am not a cultist…I am a vanilla town.There will be no role claim.

I went to the gallows with no role claim as Mafia. YMMV.

[fluiddruid]

@Captain Klutz

And I said your vote looked “flimsy”, as I explained in #1666 . Would you care to respond?

It was first thing in Day Two, when there was not a lot of information, and I wanted to cement a vote to see what the response would be. At the time, I did not see a stronger reason to vote for anyone else.

[Zeriel]

So…tired…

I’m on the side of “I don’t think that’s a breadcrumb” on the MadtheSwine issue. I think it’s more likely he checked sachertorte.

I’m suspicious right now of the following:

MadtheSwine, for the ridiculous last-minute (literally) vote and analysis. Like Queuing, I say “Give us a good reason not to vote”.

Captain Klutz, for post 1666 in which he unvotes fluiddruid and pushes Scuba_Ben over the top based on his desire to pick one of the frontrunners to lynch–that’s how I interpret

There are only 2 people who look likely to be dunked and I am now pretty sure that one of them is town

so soon after SnakesCatLady and I both expressed the desire to tie it up and go to overtime for a more useful discussion. Then he obliquely questioned Hockey’s claim just before the deadline.

DiggitCamera, for cementing a Scuba_Ben dunking by unvoting Hockey, and then voting for me based on a clear misunderstanding of my intent–I was obviously interested in a tie and more discussion, NOT in dunking Hockey , and saying otherwise won’t make it so. And furthermore, Autolycus (who he subbed) had been acting suspicious earlier too.

fluiddruid, weakly, for her blase reaction to CaptainKlutz’s vote and for being generically lurky.

For now, to put a vote on someone I think is way more likely scum than mad , I’d like to vote Captain Klutz based on his scummy moves in the closing hours of Day 3.

People I’m almost sure are town:
SnakesCatLady , for being with me on a lot of issues, especially the attempt to hold Hockey and Ben at a tie to give us some discussion room.

Queuing and sachertorte , for ongoing insightful analysis and an apparent committment to rational thought.

[SnakesCatLady]

Zeriel, I agree with you on the scumminess of Captain Klutz, but right now I admit to a bit of curiosity about Mad the Swine. I am just confused as hell about the way he is acting; it is almost if he wants to be dunked. Very little participation - and when he does he contradicts himself or outright lies. The amusing s-p-e-l-l-e-d out post was totally untrue; we have already dunked a Cultist and Kat didn’t try a roleclaim. I am not sure whether I am amused or weirded out by his posts, but he has contributed so little to the game in general I think he is a better choice for my vote than Captain Klutz. CK at least is contributing, when we get around to him there will be something to look over.

I will make this clear - if I am undecided as to where I should vote, the contributions of the players in question will play a large part. I would not have blamed anyone if I had been dunked at the end of Day 1 - it would have lost a townie but I don’t contribute much at the beginning. As I have said before (I think it was in response to Pleonast - in the beginning I don’t say much because I am looking for something to be suspicious of, and I don’t want that desire to find something make me see things that aren’t really there. At this point in the game there is plenty of information to work with.

All players - if you are going to be out-of-town or busy with work, please take a moment to let us know. It looks much better for you if you say “I just got handed a rush job” than if you just don’t participate. Of the players who didn’t vote yesterDay, we still haven’t heard from Pasta or Nava - even though Nava seemed to have plenty of time to post during the Night. (If either of these players had posted and I missed it, my apologies.)

[HazelNutCoffee]

This entire “role-claim as scum tell” thing is not sitting well with me. I thought we’d already discussed the fact that saying “scum would never do this” or “scum would totally do that” is not helpful. I can see that it would suit scum to role-claim, particularly this early in the game, if for no other reason than to throw everyone into chaos. But it would also suit scum to cry vanilla townie by saying “Look! If I were scum, I’d role-claim right now and throw everything into chaos! But I won’t do that, because I’m a plain old vanilla townie. Kill me if you must, I shall die heroically!”

Townie deaths can be helpful, but I’m not sure if Mad’s will be (assuming he is a townie). He has had almost no activity since the first Day, so there’s not much to analyze from his posts and the responses they generated. The people who immediately voted for him from the get-go might fall under suspicion, but they can’t all be scum; and besides, Mad’s actions were scummy enough to justify the votes, IMO.

I’ll vote **MadTheSwine ** for now. I haven’t forgotten my last vote for Pleonast, but right now Mad looks a tad bit scummier.

[Captain_Klutz]

#1867

@Captain Klutz

Perhaps bandwagoning isn’t the correct term. What I mean is that it looked like a flimsy vote in an attempt to establish some momentum to Malacandra, so that others could think something like “there’s already 2 votes and he’s a very suspicious character, I might as well make my vote count and vote for him too”.

In reply, #1870

@fluiddruid

@Captain Klutz

And I said your vote looked “flimsy”, as I explained in #1666 . Would you care to respond?

It was first thing in Day Two, when there was not a lot of information, and I wanted to cement a vote to see what the response would be. At the time, I did not see a stronger reason to vote for anyone else.

I’m not sure if you are agreeing that the reasoning behind the vote was weak. Okay, so the vote’s intention was to get a response. It still looked like an attempt to build some momentum. Were you trying to get a response from Malacandra or from other voters?

[Captain_Klutz]

@Zeriel

I’m suspicious right now of the following:
<snip>
Captain Klutz, for post 1666 in which he unvotes fluiddruid and pushes Scuba_Ben over the top based on his desire to pick one of the frontrunners to lynch–that’s how I interpret

There are only 2 people who look likely to be dunked and I am now pretty sure that one of them is town

so soon after SnakesCatLady and I both expressed the desire to tie it up and go to overtime for a more useful discussion. Then he obliquely questioned Hockey’s claim just before the deadline.

Yes, going to a tie was another possibility, one that I perhaps didn’t give enough thought to. Note that in a tie, we are only allowed to vote for one of the tied voters, so the dunkee would still be either Hockey Monkey or Scuba_Ben.

And yes, I did question Hockey Monkey’s late claim. Late role claims make life difficult for the town so I asked her why she waited so long.

But I accept that I was perhaps a bit hasty in deciding on the immediate dunk.

[MadTheSwine]

Ok,I’ve finally seen what I wanted to see.
This has been a risky move and somewhat stressful,but I got this idea way back in M2 watching Autolycus play rather poorly. Wether it pays off or not is yet to be seen,I hope so.
I have been being deliberately scummy in hopes of trapping a scum or two. So scummy in fact ,I can’t even imagine some one not voting for me.
So I thought if I could scum well enough everyone will jump my shit eventually… except a few scum I figured, that will cast an off vote (maybe even for one of their own)to protect themselves when their time comes. “Wait …I can’t be scum…I didn’t vote for Mad…he was town!”.
So I don’t mind going down first if need be,I’d rather test the idea out before I die, but either way.

Just to recap Day4 so far we have Pleonast voting for Malacandra and Zeriel voting for Captain Klutz. My FOS’s are on all 4 of these fellas.

I really,really got to get to bed as I work in the morning(sorry SCL) but unless something changes I will be back tomorrow night at some point and decide then which to vote for.(Leaning towards zeriel right now.)

I know it was a risk, but I am real interested to see how it turns out.

[Pasta]

Dear all:

You have probably noticed my participation decline the last Day or so. I fear that real-life constraints on my time are going to keep me from giving the game the attention it deserves for the next couple of weeks. Rather than have an idle player, I figure it’s best to let someone take my spot.

So, with my sincere apologies and regrets, I’ll be requesting a sub from BM. I know we’ve had more subs than one would like, and I’m sorry to contribute to the confusion.

Have fun. I wish I could.

I’ll stay tuned.

[Zeriel]

@MadTheSwine

Ok,I’ve finally seen what I wanted to see.
This has been a risky move and somewhat stressful,but I got this idea way back in M2 watching Autolycus play rather poorly. Wether it pays off or not is yet to be seen,I hope so.
I have been being deliberately scummy in hopes of trapping a scum or two. So scummy in fact ,I can’t even imagine some one not voting for me.
So I thought if I could scum well enough everyone will jump my shit eventually… except a few scum I figured, that will cast an off vote (maybe even for one of their own)to protect themselves when their time comes. “Wait …I can’t be scum…I didn’t vote for Mad…he was town!”.
So I don’t mind going down first if need be,I’d rather test the idea out before I die, but either way.

Just to recap Day4 so far we have Pleonast voting for Malacandra and Zeriel voting for Captain Klutz. My FOS’s are on all 4 of these fellas.

I really,really got to get to bed as I work in the morning(sorry SCL) but unless something changes I will be back tomorrow night at some point and decide then which to vote for.(Leaning towards zeriel right now.)

I know it was a risk, but I am real interested to see how it turns out.

That’s the most messed up crap I’ve ever heard. Hell, this little song and dance makes you look even more scummy, you realize that?

[sachertorte]

@Captain Klutz

I can also see an Alchemist Hockey Monkey asking this question. I stated that if the role claim was false then it would be revealed by a counter claim from the real Alchemist. If there could be multiple Alchemists then this logic doesn’t hold. So whether Hockey Monkey’s claim is true or false, it is still in her interests for everyone to know if multiple Alchemists are possible.

What you say makes sense, but I think it makes more sense that such a question would arise after a counter claim. A lying Hockey Monkey is more motivated to get the idea out there right away. Also, look a the question. Suppose the ruling was that the Alchemist is unique. The way the question is phased implies wanting BM to say nothing in that case. The question phrasing itself looks scummy to me. I assert that any townie would want BM to clarify the rules for everyone in any case. The question as written only wants to share the clarification IF the ruling is a certain way. Only scum would want this.

@Captain Klutz

And yes, I did question Hockey Monkey’s late claim. Late role claims make life difficult for the town so I asked her why she waited so long.

Does anyone else agree with Captain Klutz that the role claim was late? By my perception the voting was late which pushed the time for a role claim late. This is why I spent the last few days pushing people to vote, so that the leading candidates can make an informed decision about role claims and not too late in the day. So I don’t fault Hockey Monkey for the timing of the role claim. I’m a tiny bit wary about the veracity of the role claim, but that’s a different matter.

@MadTheSwine

I have been being deliberately scummy in hopes of trapping a scum or two. So scummy in fact ,I can’t even imagine some one not voting for me.
So I thought if I could scum well enough everyone will jump my shit eventually… except a few scum I figured, that will cast an off vote (maybe even for one of their own)to protect themselves when their time comes. “Wait …I can’t be scum…I didn’t vote for Mad…he was town!”.
So I don’t mind going down first if need be,I’d rather test the idea out before I die, but either way.

This makes no sense! If this is your master plan, then why tell us now? You’d be much more effective waiting for the actual dunking and posting your scheme just before you die. Your role would confirm the veracity of your plan and the information gleaned would be much more voluminous and reliable. To me, this looks like a desperate attempt to not get dunked.
The reasoning itself is even flawed. Why would we look at a person who didn’t vote for you and think, “must be town”? If anything, the town is inclined to look for scum on the list of voters. The only time i can think that “I voted for X, therefore I’m town” comes into play, is when X is scum.

@Pasta

So, with my sincere apologies and regrets, I’ll be requesting a sub from BM. I know we’ve had more subs than one would like, and I’m sorry to contribute to the confusion.

Well, at least Pasta is taking action about being so quiet. Personally, with all the substitutions and lack of participation, I’m tempted to leave myself.

[FlyingCowOfDoom]

@MadTheSwine

Ok,I’ve finally seen what I wanted to see.
This has been a risky move and somewhat stressful,but I got this idea way back in M2 watching Autolycus play rather poorly. Wether it pays off or not is yet to be seen,I hope so.
I have been being deliberately scummy in hopes of trapping a scum or two. So scummy in fact ,I can’t even imagine some one not voting for me.
So I thought if I could scum well enough everyone will jump my shit eventually… except a few scum I figured, that will cast an off vote (maybe even for one of their own)to protect themselves when their time comes. “Wait …I can’t be scum…I didn’t vote for Mad…he was town!”.
So I don’t mind going down first if need be,I’d rather test the idea out before I die, but either way.

Just to recap Day4 so far we have Pleonast voting for Malacandra and Zeriel voting for Captain Klutz. My FOS’s are on all 4 of these fellas.

I really,really got to get to bed as I work in the morning(sorry SCL) but unless something changes I will be back tomorrow night at some point and decide then which to vote for.(Leaning towards zeriel right now.)

I know it was a risk, but I am real interested to see how it turns out.

o.o

Vote MadTheSwine

–FCOD