Moving to a new state when you retire? Great or selfish?

In My Humble Opinion
41

The cost of 16 hours a day attendant for my parents was a shade over $200,000 a year.

Assisted living places at $120,000 a year were pretty dismal. They ended up moving further out of the metro area to find a place at that price that was nicer. But it’s been bought by a PE firm, so who knows how it’s going to change.

For about eight months before they finally agreed to move into assisted living, they had either me or one of my two brothers living with them to help take care of them. Most of the time they had an 8-hour a day home care person as well.

My parents were upset my sisters didn’t just suspend their careers and family lives to come take care of them. Or that they should be asked to go live with my sisters. The gender normative role expectations are strong. I hear this from my friends and coworkers as well. Parents of that generation (now in their 80s and 90s) expect their daughters to do the caregiving.

42

I think my mother was very disappointed that none of her kids uprooted their Minnesota lives to move to Tucson. But, as I pointed out to her, none of us worked in an industry that was based in the desert SW, and there were far fewer jobs for us as a result. She accepted the reasoning and kept mum to my brothers about her desire.

(Edit to add)

Eventually, she needed help with Dad’s Alzheimers, so they moved back up here. She had lots of friends in AZ and would have been fine with staying but for Dad. And, sadly, when they came back up here, he had health problems and immediately went into Memory Care, leaving her alone in the cold. I felt bad about that, but it couldn’t be helped.

43

If I follow the example of those of my family that did not inherit a bad cardiovascular gene I should still be able-bodied, capable, and clear-headed into my early 90’s. Which would again leave me the last one standing.

I agree with what you say, but here in the US the reality is that with no living relatives I’m screwed, especially if I fall prey to dementia. If I was wealthy I could set something up with a professional to look after my interests and follow my instructions but for most Americans it’s (unpaid, over-stressed, over-extended) family or nothing. Maybe a kindly neighbor if you’re really lucky.

Yes, it sounds nice.

At this point in my life there is zero chance I will be able to afford one.

44

That’s the thing - I don’t know anyone who was a full-time caregiver for a parent or other relative in the way that a 24 hour home attendant would be ( I do know a couple of people who did that for a spouse).There seems to be a perception that people are either capable of complete independence or their kids will have to drop their own lives to help them but there’s a lot of space in the middle. People I know who “take care” of their parents don’t come close to dropping their lives . They might take over paying bills or doing grocery shopping or somewhat dangerous/difficult household tasks or even have the older person move in with the younger person - but that’s nothing like someone who can’t use the toilet or bathe or feed themself. You don’t have to drop your own life to take care of their parents’ window air conditioners or add a few items to their own grocery list or spend an hour a month paying the bills. I’ve known loads of people who did this for parents who don’t really need a lot of care and nobody who refused to provide that sort of care for parents who lived close enough to make it practical.

45

I don’t think it’s selfish to move to a new state when you retire. I mean , it’s your life and if you need help later on, you can always move back. That said , I have decided not to move because of my specific circumstances - I live in NYC which is actually a very good place to live if you cannot or don’t want to drive. My son lives in Manhattan, my daughter and her family live across the river in New Jersey and my three siblings and most of their kids live either in NYC or the same part of NJ as my daughter.

However, if my daughter moves her family to Kansas , I will probably move with her to be near my grandchildren. If my son has children and moves to California and my daughter moves to Kansas , I will most likely leave NY. I love NYC, but if my kids and grandkids aren’t here, I’m going someplace warm that won’t tax my pension ( it’s not taxable in NY)

46

Yeah - I don’t get how people - who never made that much in theirproductive years, think they are worth that in their dotage. I guess i don’t think I’m that important that my kids or anyone ought to pay that much or give up their lives to spoon pablum into me and wipe my ass.

47

I think the problem there is assigning a dollar value to human life as if that’s all there was. I think I’m worth well over what I’ll be able to produce as a nonagenarian, because I will still be human.

You spoon pablum and wipe asses because human beings have an inherent worth that defies how much money they can produce. At worst, you spoon and wipe because you will one day need someone to do that for you. At best, you do so in gratitude for what they gave in time, energy, love, humour, food, music, conversation and stories… because of what you learned from them, even in the negative (from their neglect, anger, ignorance, etc.).

Yes, caring for them comes at a cost, and some of that cost can be assigned a dollar value, especially if outsourced, but (as with everything else in our society), if that’s where you stop, you’re missing a lot of what it means to be human.

48

Huh, I never put a dollar value on myself, or based my worth as a human being on the net earnings of my life, or thought I’d depreciate in value as I aged, like a car. To me that’s not only an alien concept but a loathsome one.

49

Yeah - this is getting close to where I fear I am antisocial or some other pathology. I’ll agree all human life has SOME inherent worth, but not all have equal worth, and some just aren’t worth much.

Sorry it seems loathsome to you, Ulfreida. But I find the amount of money spent on incompetent elders, and on the aged in general in their final days/weeks/months of life - well, I’m not sure loathsome is the BEST word, but it is probably pretty close.

No, I am not advocating killing the aged and infirm. All I will say definitely is that I do not wish to outlive my existence as a thinking and reasonably independent being. I do not want to exist like that, and I do not wish to impose that burden on my loved ones - or society.

50

And I’d agree that some humans are worth more than others. The whole thing is a larger and entirely separate conversation, but not unrelated, because even a holistic assessment of eldercare involves money, as does moving. For now, I’ll just say that the particular way dollars and eldercare intersect aren’t immutable except maybe in practical terms.

When my mother moved to be near us, it was USA > Canada. Healthcare costs were definitely a factor in that decision.

51

I work in the insurance industry. I can assure you that your dollar value depreciates as you age.

But i cared for my mom, and hope someone cares for me, because people have value and shouldn’t be left to rot in their own shit.

I did not drop everything and care for her full time. I helped with her meds, my sister paid her bills, and my bil changed her lightbulbs. And when she needed more care than that, we were lucky that she could afford a live-in aide.

52

I don’t think it’s a matter of the person being cared for thinking they’re “worth it”. That’s a statement of how much it actually costs to care for someone in their “dotage”. Now keep in mind that society expects the family to do this for free. That’s the situation right now - whether or not spooning pablum into and wiping your ass is worth or not to you or anyone else that’s the cost. Except the family is expected to volunteer, and typically the women are expected to add that job, that burden on top of everything else they do, even to the point of dropping their own career and ambitions to provide this care for free.

To my mind, that’s even more eff’ed up than the quoted price tag.

The cost can not only be dollars but stunted lives, missed opportunities, and poverty because if you’re caring for a helpless relative full time you can’t hold down an outside job, or at least not one that pays more than minimum wage or is intermittent gig work. Which just perpetuates the cycle of impoverished old people requiring relatives to care for them for free. Sure, that’s a human thing, too, but it’s not a laudable thing.

The upper middle class and wealthy can afford to hire help, or put their family into decent facilities. The rest… if you have debilitated elders either someone gives up their own life and ambition to take care of the person or they wind up in a cesspit of a human warehouse. In the “greatest nation on Earth”. [sarcasm]

56

Though valid considerations, it is a negative approach overall. Saying that you shouldn’t do something good NOW because something bad may happen someday is not the way to live one’s life.

MOVE! Doing something that will make your life significantly better is much better than worrying about making your death more palatable.

57

Isn’t this the reverse of all the life management advice we’re given the first 50 or so years of our lives? DON’T spend all your money on things that will make your life more pleasant, whatever that may be for you. DON’T buy that boat that you will enjoy tootling around in if it means you won’t have enough left to save up for your kids educations. DON’T take all the vacations you can afford because you need to max out your retirement contributions. DON’T go to every possible concert by your favorite bands because you need to be able to pay for disability insurance. DON’T eat out every other dinner at the newest and best restaurants because the money you save by eating in allows you to cover the cost of the really good health insurance plan you or family members might very well need to save your life.

On and on and on.

The theme of the sermon is DON’T be a grasshopper, chasing whatever makes you the happiest in the moment. DO be an ant, industriously saving/planning ahead/being practical/preparing for the rainy days that will eventually come.

And now you’re advising, the heck with all that? Sure, sell your house and abandon the social capital you’ve built up so far, and live it up as much as you can in the most pleasant environment you can fine and afford in the present? And what comes after that? Maybe you’ll be relatively happy and comfortable during your 50s/60s/70s (if you’re lucky) but what happens if you don’t ‘happily’ die while still having fun and before your funds run out?
When you become one of the Old Olds? When you need stuff you can no longer do or afford to pay to have done for you? How much of a burden are you willing to be on your remaining family/friends/society/the charity of strangers?

58

No, because many of the things you listed entailed either immediate risk or risk over time. I was responding to the OP, and these are his exact words:

You’re retired. You can afford to move somewhere else (you may even NEED to, to a place that’s more affordable than where you currently are). The new place has more congenial weather, or better transportation, or better cultural opportunities, or whatever. It’s better than where you are in almost all ways.

I don’t see any real risk there, I really don’t, at least not the financial risks that your list has. In fact, I see it as being financially beneficial.

59

For decades my mother-in-law told my wife that she never wanted to be a burden to her or her brother in her old age, and that if anything happened she wanted to be put into the local nursing home.

About four years ago, it started becoming clear that Nancy was no longer able to take care of herself without some help. For a while that meant having local professional caregivers come in once a day to make sure she had dinner (she got lunch at the senior center every weekday).

But by three years ago that was no longer enough. Her mild cognitive impairment has steadily descended into full-blown dementia (but fortunately not Alzheimer’s), and her weakened heart has made her increasingly physically frail.

When Covid hit, Nancy moved in with my wife’s daughter and her family for a few months, and two years ago my wife and I moved into Nancy’s home to be with her full-time. I was just a few months from retiring from self-employment, and my wife had left her previous job a few months earlier and was fortunate to find a less-stressful one nearby.

As I wrote about in this thread last August, since then caring for Nancy has been our responsibility, and since my wife, at 62, is still working full-time (or more), most of the daily care falls to me. It is not particularly onerous: getting her up and dressed in the morning, seeing that she stays hydrated (a major issue, because she has dysphagia, and collapsed from dehydration a year ago), getting her to the senior center when possible, making dinner for the three of us, and putting her to bed.

For more than six months I have also been changing her disposable panties at least once or twice a day and cleaning her after she uses the toilet. (The suggestion of a bidet fixture for the toilet made in the other thread has made that process much less unpleasant.) I am somewhat surprised at how normal-seeming it has become for me to wipe the buttocks of an 86-year-old woman.

When my wife and I travel for vacations, my brother-in-law comes here to take care of her, and from Thanksgiving through New Year’s she flies out to stay with him and his family in Kansas. So we get those breaks. However, it may come to a point where those trips west are too much for her.

Fortunately, Nancy had the foresight to put the home we’re living in, which has been in the family since 1960, into a trust that will convey it to my wife and her brother on her death. So if she has to go on Medicare and spend down her assets, we won’t have to sell it and be homeless.

But as I pondered in the other thread, at some point her care may become too burdensome for us and we’ll have no choice. All we can do is keep her safe and comfortable for as long as we can.

The point is that if Nancy of 20 years ago saw herself now, she would be appalled. This is not what she wanted for herself or her children. But what were the options? She doesn’t have long-term health insurance, nor does she have enough money to pay hundreds of thousands a year for full-time nursing care. Despite her clearly stated preferences, her family has had no choice but to take care of her in a way she hoped to spare them from. As others have said, this is what families do.

60

For much of my career I was a workers’ compensation actuary. I remember discussing one very serious claim where the guy had been totally disabled, and his wife had taken on much of his care. We joked that the insurer should hire a gigolo to keep her happy, as that would be a great deal cheaper than hiring a professional caretaker to replace her. Because it was a workers’ comp claim, we (the insurer) would have been on the hook to pay for some basic level of care if the wife had left him. (and even with her care, we paid for a lot of supplemental care, because it was more than she could do on her own.) I assume she stayed because she loved him and knew that he would be better off with a caring family member to oversee his care.

61

Wow. Lots of thoughtful comments here.

This may be a bit rambling, so here goes…

For someone who mentioned “all the old folks are near me and I can’t take an overseas job”: Valid point. I remember my in-laws once dreaming about FIL maybe taking a job in Australia and speculating “it’s gotta be right now, before grandma really needs extra help, or in a few years when she is beyond that” (it was never gonna happen, the job in Oz didn’t exist anyway). To some extent, this would be a concern for you even if they didn’t live close to you - e.g. if there’s a posting in Paris, you live in NY, and the parents live in Chicago, it’s still a lot more hassle to cross an ocean in case of emergency.

The argument that in some cases, the move may be really good for them, is valid - but I’m looking at the longer term implications of such a move. Right now, the folks who move may be doing well - but health fails. As we have seen, being at such a distance with no family who can drop in somewhat easily can allow a LOT of problems to go unaddressed… especially if the parents are stubborn and reluctant to even admit there are problems.

Some examples:

  • MIL got dangerously ill a while back. Forbade FIL from telling anyone about it. SIL finally flew down there, took one look at MIL, and got her into the hospital on some pretext.
  • FIL went in for an urgent cardiac procedure - while MIL was in a rehab facility 30 miles in the other direction from hip replacement surgery. He didn’t even ask what the procedure was. Meanwhile, the rehab place was not delivering the services they were supposed to, even when SIL flew down there and reamed them out. Note that this whole incident required all 3 adult children to flow down, one at a time, to cover them,
  • FIL was becoming increasingly feeble, and fell several times. MIL’s memory was very obviously starting to go. MIL ADAMANTLY refused outside help.
  • MIL has made repeated attempts to fall for phone scammers. Even before memory issues, judgment was impaired.
  • MIL fell, the day FIL went to the hospital. She downplayed how much pain she was in (says she fell backward against the cab she took home), even while we were there for 2 weeks; the only clue was she expressed disappointment that we had tossed out some ancient narcotic pain meds in FIL’s medicine cabinet. Apparently she was in a lot more hurt than she admitted; she went to her doctor after we left - who gave her a MONTH’S SUPPLY OF CODEINE PAIN RELIEVER. To an elderly woman, with known early dementia and nobody to oversee her meds.
  • We have frequently found dishes put away that have visible food stains on them. These are not “forgot to wash them”, they are “we washed them” (and they missed the very obvious crud). But “we don’t need help”.
  • And many, many more.

It became clear that they needed assisted living of some sort. This required qualifying them for Medicaid. And it required someone to decide which state to qualify them. The place they were would involve them being in a home a thousand miles away, with regular oversight from family VERY difficult - basically a recipe for neglect whether intentional or accidental. Or, moving them to near family - exactly the same climate they loathed.

FIL died before this happened - and MIL is now back in her home state; admittedly, she won’t ever need to go outdoors in the cold except for the occasional doctor’s visit, but still…

We would gladly do the “stop in weekly” kind of oversight. Having family a half hour away is a good compromise (though admittedly it does not solve the issues with climate and affordability). We certainly could not handle 24/7 care for someone who required a lot of hands-on care.

I fantasize about moving NORTH when we retire. We’re in a very expensive part of the country; looking at real estate listings, we could likely come away with enough equity from this house to pay cash for something in Vermont or New Hampshire. I like winter, and with global warming, we don’t get much of that here anymore. So, much like the in-laws, if a different direction… I admit, when we were looking at maybe putting the folks in a facility near us, that was a concern: “Here, Mom, you’re home, in xxx state where you know NOBODY but US, and we’re leaving next year”.

To the person who mentioned moving to another country: all the issues are doubled, for sure. I’ve watched “find our retirement home in central America” type shows a couple times, and the places look wonderful - but it’s so much more trouble when (not if) health fails.

62

I agree. I can’t imagine not helping out my mom if she needs it. Or helping begrudgingly.

63

Nope, sometimes families don’t.

I was once witness to the heartbreaking event of a family abandoning a sick loved one during chemotherapy. They never came to pick the person up from the infusion center.

Not to mention there are scads of old people who DO have family who are abandoned in nursing homes. Not all of those abandoned where terrible people who were disowned for abusive/nasty behavior.