Your confusion is understandable. Lemme see if I can clear it up for you.
-Israel citizens who protest Israel’s atrocities are proof that Israel is a great society dedicated to principles of dignity, respect, and democracy.
-Palestinians who protest Israel’s atrocities are mostly terrorists who deserve to die, and on the off chance that they’re not terrorists, why, they’re justifiable casualties of war.
Daniel
What do we call Israelis who protest Palestinian atrocities? For that matter, what do we call Palestinians who protest Palestinian atrocities?
For that matter, are there any Palestinians who protest Palestinian atrocities?
If the Palestinians want to be seen as “dedicated to principles of dignity, respect, and democracy”, perhaps they can lead a big protest march the next time the terrorists blow up a pregnant woman and her children.
I can almost guarantee that if they tried that kind of thing for a year or so, we would have a hell of a lot fewer complaints against the IDF - and a hell of a lot more against the Palestinian terrorists who are causing most of this.
Regards,
Shodan
What do I call them? Smart, decent people. What does Finn call them? From his posts, I can only presume he calls the Israelis smart, beleagured promoters of human rights and democracy, whereas he calls the Palestinians subhuman liars.
No. Of the millions of folks living in Palestinian territory, you’re correct: not a single one protests Palestinian atrocities. You got me! They are indeed a bunch of genocidal maniacs, so if Israel ends up wiping them all out, it’s for the best.
Daniel
I think maybe I’m starting to get at a fundamental disconnect between us:
Huh? I don’t see the Palestinians as dedicated to principles of dignity, respect, and democracy; nor do I see the Palestinians as dedicated to blowing up pregnant women. I don’t see the Israelis as dedicated to principles of dignity, respect, and democracy; nor do I see the Israelis as dedicated to massacreing marchers.
I’ve tried to be very clear through this that I’m not criticizing Israelis as a whole. I’m criticizing the current Israeli administration and their army, and I’m condemning the actions of the soldiers who committed the massacre. But there’s no sort of national guilt here, on either side. There’s only guilt held by specific individuals on both sides whom I want to be held accountable.
Specifically, I think that the Israel military is in the best position to hold Palestinian terrorists accountable, and I’m willing to facilitate that by funding the Israeli military. I think that the US taxpayer is in the best position to hold the Israeli administration accountable, and I’m willing to facilitate that by withholding funding from the Israeli military.
Daniel
Are you saying that Shodan endorses a Final Solution to the Palestinian question? 'Cos I don’t see it in his posts.
Shodan doesn’t; nor does Finn, but the latter comes awful close. And if you believe, as Finn seems to, that any Palestinian who thinks the terrorists are right is a valid war target, it is but a baby step from questioning the existence of any anti-terrorist Palestinians to calling for their wholesale genocide.
Admittedly, Finn hasn’t explicitly made that baby-step, and he’s even condemned the massacre in theory without actually admitting it happened. Still he skirts insanely close to genocidal politics.
Daniel
'ey, logic lesson follows.
The Palestinians have made a claim that this was a massacre, they have a history of lying to the press to inflate their claims, of paying women and children to act as soldiers, and their soldiers never wear military uniforms. I’m still not convinced, even after the last post in this thread, that all of the protestors were innocent.
In other words, the burden of proof lies on them and they have to prove it, all I’ve EVER said is that I want to wait to see the proof on this issue before we jump to Jenin style conclusions.
This is not becuase I’m some sort of monster, but because I wouldn’t put it past the PA to send in a bunch of innocents to be killed with a few gunmen, because they’ve done it before!
These are their tactics, it’s insane to not realize the reality.
Also, I am insulted that someone who is apparently intelligent would have the fucking NERVE to suggest I was calling for a final solution. If you honestly believe I’m saying that you’re a ** piece of shit**.
The FACT of the matter is that the PLO, Hamas, etc are genocidal, and 60-80 percent of Palestinian society supports them.
Nowhere do I see a call for exterminating them.
Just a call not to be willfully ignorant and ignore that the Israelis are fighting for their very survival while at the best the Palestinians are fighting for genocide and land.
Do with that whatever you will, but don’t DARE claim that just because I realize the FACT that they’re genocidal that I want to wipe them out.
Do you see the double standard at work? Someone states the documented Palestinian tactics, points out that they’re trying to commit genocide, and some freakin’ yahoo comes along and says that if you realize that fact you must be some sort of crazy monster who wants to kill Palestinian babies.
Shame on you…
It was a genuine question, Daniel.
You mentioned some Israelis who participate in Palestinian protests. Well and good, if they are supporting whatever non-terrorist goals the Palestinians want to achieve. What Palestinians march in support of Israel’s non-terrorist desire to continue to exist? We have Israelis who oppose Israeli “terrorism”. What Palestinians oppose Palestinian terrorism? Are they as vocal, as determined as their Israeli counterparts?
I don’t think I need to cite that more than a few Palestinians are killed by their own side as colloborationists, do I?
I think you may be correct. Especially if you post the follwing:
I would say that the Israelis are, for the most part, dedicated to those principles, although they could probably do better. I would say that the Palestinians ought to be dedicated to those principles if they want genuine sympathy for their plight. And I would say that the terrorists, for the most part, are dedicated to blowing up pregnant women - and so they deserve no sympathy, or support, at all.
Which probably accounts for the fundamental disconnect. AFAICT, you would like to try to push Israel towards a dedication to those principles, at least insofar as they don’t commit atrocities (assuming that this is an example of such). But the atrocities of the terrorists you don’t feel like you can do much about (besides funding the Israelis).
OK, but ISTM that cutting out aid to the Israeli army as a whole is a bit beyond punishing whoever is responsible for this action (again, assuming that it is a genuine human rights violation). Because there exist mechanisms of some sort to address Israeli violations, as witnessed by the investigations they conduct. There are even Israelis who support the Palestinian cause.
But there doesn’t seem to be any such set of mechanisms to address Palestinian terrorism. There isn’t even much public outrage amongst average Palestinians when the terrorists commit atrocities. No protest marches, as I said, no review even by their military or its equivalent - nada.
It seems pretty obvious to me, when phrased as above, that increasing pressure by reducing aid to Israel, as you advocate, is going to reduce pressure on the terrorists necessarily. If you rely on the Israeli military to put pressure on the terrorists, and then reduce the ability of the military to do this, you are reducing pressure on one side and increasing it on the other.
And if you try to stop the Israelis from taking actions that lead to collateral damage, you are increasing the payoff to terrorists who use the populace as human shields. If you threaten the Israelis with a cut off of their funding if they respond to terrorist attacks in ways that cause civilian casualties, you are encouraging the terrorist to make those attacks more brutal and more common in hopes of sparking Israeli reactions. You are increasing the pay off, and reducing the cost of terrorism.
Regards,
Shodan
I take it that you have a cite to prove that there is a wide spread Palestinian protest movement against genocidal-civilian-targeted-tactics?
Or do they just protest Israeli actions?
You see anything wrong with a democratic society which protests some of its actions and a genocidal dictatorship that only protests its opponents actions and shows zero self restraint?
And yeah, the unfortunate reality is, if ** as a tactic of war you send in people without uniforms who pose as civilians, you should not be surprised if your civilians not wearing uniforms are sometimes mistaken as terrorists.**
This isn’t rocket science!
This is a DIRECT result of the Palestinian tactics, and until they STOP trying to commit genocide there is really no point in Israel laying down her arms. Yes, unfortunate things will result from the fog of war, but fucking face facts and get your head out of the clouds, ** one side actually wants GENOCIDE (which coincidently you view as a bad thing if you think I support it but good if the PA does?), ignore that in favor of your pipe dream if you really want. **
Just a little aside, and then some of you all can get back to your pissing contest…
There is an enormous amount of genuine support and sympathy across the world for the Palestinians and their cause. And no, it’s not just anti-semitism. :rolleyes:
Perhaps you should think about that the next time you make decidely black and white statements.
Let me put it another way – does it do a lot of good, and make for honest debate, when Democrats (or Republicans) say “half the folks in America are stupid and wrong”?
At least pretend to keep an open mind folks…
(Oh, and just to preempt the nasty attacks, I am NOT saying terrorists deserve any support or sympathy…)
Pshaw!
There is NO moral equivelancy.
It is NOT wrong to say that the Palestinians are genocidal, that genocide is bad, and that supporting a genocidal regime is bad.
Sorry.
Try again.
P.S. I genuinely support the Palestinian drive towards a state (but only if it’s a terror free state).
People who genuinely support the Palestinian campaign of genocide are either ignoring the facts, or anti-Semites.
Sorry.
Try again.
Try again.
Incorrect.
Well, geez, that’s nice. As I said, you do NOT call for a final solution, in gobear’s phraseology. You come insanely close to it, however.
Or is it not your assertion that:
That’s what I understand your argument to be; please correct me if I’m wrong. Furthermore, if killing 60-80% of a given population doesn’t qualify as genocide in your book, please explain.
You yourself, in lambasting me for a supposed double standard, exhibit one yourself where I have none: whereas I condemn terrorist acts against Israel civilians and lambast Palestinian terrorists who kill innocent Israelis and call for aid to Israel’s army as the best way my society has of helping end those attacks, you belittle concerns about killing Palestinian civilians, claim that they’re probably lies, claim that Israel’s methods for dealing with such lamentable excesses work well, and try to shout down anyone who takes such killings seriously.
Daniel
Thank you, Finnagain. You are a picture perfect example of someone whose mind is clamped so tightly shut, that it is pointless to debate with you.
I hope others will learn from your example. 
That’s true. (Although some of the support for the Palestinians has as much to do with concern for justice as does The Protocol of the Elders of Zion). But in the same way, there is considerable support for Israel that does not imply that all Palestinians are evil, wrong, terrorists, or deserve death.
But every time the Palestinian terrorists act in some ghastly way, the Palestinians do not rise up and condemn it. If they did, I suspect the whole mess would be resolved in a few years or less.
But they don’t. And therefore do not deserve some of the support and sympathy they get. Because they do not repudiate terrorism. Especially their leaders do not repudiate it. And, as has been pointed out, there is no moral equivalent between Israel and Hamas and the other terror groups. Israel strikes at the terrorists, and sometimes hits civilians by accident. Hamas and the others strike at civilians on purpose.
And there don’t seem to be a lot of protest marches when Hamas does it. But when Israel does something that looks like it might be somewhat similar, watch out. Then they need to get their aid cut off. :rolleyes:
Where exactly have I said that half of the Palestinians are stupid and wrong?
On the subject of terrorism, those who support terrorism, and the like, I do not have an open mind at all. Nor do I have much sympathy for the attitude, “Both sides are to blame - Israel should be punished.” And for the attitude “Israel has no right to exist” I have no sympathy at all.
If the Palestinians want to be taken seriously, either by me or by those who agree with me, they have to start acting seriously. Repudiate terrorism in all its forms. Publicly affirm Israel’s right to exist. Stop teaching anti-Zionism in your schools. Recognize that Israel has legitimate security concerns. And face facts - neither side can get everything they want. Israel made a reasonable compromise offer a few years back, and Arafat rejected it out of hand. That was counter-productive, to say the least, and seems to have been motivated by the belief that he could get from terrorism and the Intifada what he can’t get at the bargaining table. He is wrong there, and needs to be shown that he is wrong. If he cannot or will not negotiate in good faith and with a genuine desire for peace for both sides, get rid of him and get someone who will.
And if there is nobody who will, that is not the fault of Israel. And she should not be condemned for it.
Regards,
Shodan
I really don’t want to get dragged down into this, but I will respond to your points.
There is also considerable support for Palestine that does not imply that all Israelis are evil, etc. And certainly some of the support for Israel is motivated out of simple hatred for/bias against muslims.
I can’t imagine that you’re saying that every time an innocent Palestinian dies the Israelis rise up and condemn it. Sometimes they have to be arm-twisted, and sometimes they just flat out deny it (until proven otherwise).
No, I don’t think there is a moral equivalent. But what about when Hamas strikes Israeli soldiers?
And again, the response of the Israeli gov’t and its leaders seems to be, “We were going after a few terrorists, and we managed to kill a lot of civilians. That is regrettable, but necessary for our war on terror.” This is not exactly a sincere apology, nor does is carry much moral weight when it is sent out like a form letter, time and time again.
You’re right. There should be protest marches against horrific attacks on civilians. I think we can all agree that this kind of protest would make a great difference.
That wasn’t my point at all. My point was that many people are so emotionally involved and/or closed-minded that they cannot see the other point of view. A lot of people think that half of America is stupid and flat out wrong. And a lot of people think that those who support Palestine (or Israel) are simply wrong and stupid.
There are so many issues, and so many errors on both sides, that I think it’s impossible to paint the dilemma in simple black and white terms. Certainly there are specifics which can be considered right or wrong, but on the whole it is foolish to say one side is completely just and the other completely evil.
This is one of the reasons so little progress has been, and will continue to be, made.
I agree. But perhaps both sides ought to be punished. Or at least dealt with in a manner that doesn’t alienate the other side.
Again, unless we are willing to open our minds, and admit that there are reasonable grievances coming from both sides, and faults on both sides, we will continue to go round and round with vitriol and increased hatred, and little progress.
I agree. Arafat has been a huge impediment to the peace process. A great leader is needed on the Palestinian side, and until Arafat steps aside/is removed/etc. then no real substantive changes will be made in the Palestinian leadership. But the Palestinian people are not really at fault for this, are they?
As I said, I don’t really want to get into this tit-for-tat business that these threads always seem to devolve into – there is never really any progress on either side. (Sound familiar?)
I just wish that the Dope would rise above the level of discourse that involves, “You’re wrong, and I’m right. And that is the end of that.”
Wishful thinking, eh?
Rudolph Giuliani, or some have derided, ‘Crueliani’, as mayor of NYC, had the police crack down and capture some of the most violent gangs and criminals in the US history, some of whom make terrorists look like gentlemen. At the same time, to the surprise of many, the incidents on police killing civilians were also greatly reduced. Yes, there have been incidents that have been magnified, and deservedly so.
Despite all the flack about him, Giuliani was extremely kind compared to Sharon’s ‘police work’ activities on the Palestinians. Think of the Philadelphia Police handling the MOVE group a while back, or the ATF/FBI actions against David Koresh at Waco. Now imagine smaller scales of these activities happening daily. That is what the Palestinains are facing.
See, your very second point is a strawman.
I did not say that anybody who supports terrorism can be killed or is a war target.
I have said that those who support terrorism are complicit in the state of affairs and they have to stop supporting terrorism.
I have said that when such a large percentage of the population believes in terrorism and when a sizeable portion practice terrorism sans uniforms, it’s hard to differentiate.
I’m saying it’s a SHAME a goddamn AWFUL shame
But until Hamas, the PLO, et al stop using their countrymen as human shields and teaching them hate as a curriculum, it’s a reality of the situation.
Israel must be allowed to defend itself.
And inevitably civilian casualties will result.
** If you dispute this, please, name a method whereby the Israelis do not send missiles, troops or tanks into a densely populated town in order to eliminate a bomb making factory in an apartment? **
**What would you want done if the country over from you was making bombs that were blowing up your citizens in cafes, and they wouldn’t police themselves? Would you want your government to apply a double standard or use the minimum amount of force required to make sure those who made and organized the bombings were quite dead? **
And I’ve got a very clear solution.
Let every militant in the Palestinian service wear a uniform.
And not make their bases around civilian targets.
And not target civilians.
And not masquerade as civilians.
And not use suicide bomb tactics.
And not strike against Israeli military forces except in self defense.
Then there will be no NEED for an Israeli response, of any sort, other than mututal cooperation.
Hopefully I’ve clarified the issue for you.
Let me make this quite clear.
If you DELIBERATELY kill civilians you’re doing something wrong.
However.
If the Palestinians use tactics that make no distinction between terrorists and militants and civilians in their own population, how can the Isrealis possibly tell?
So if the Israelis are trying to protect themselves from a group that is genocidal
(why do you keep ignoring that fact?)
and they’re unable to tell who’s who
shouldn’t we grant them a bit of leeway, and only after an investigation of the facts punish individual soldiers on individual occasions?
And, YES! If the Palestinians are shown to use children as soldiers, to mix civilians and soldiers in together, to use suicide tactics, I’m saying they bear some of the responsibility for the Israelis being unable to tell which of them are hostile and which are civilians.
And, YES! If the Palestinians have been shown to make stuff up in the global media in order to further their line, even when it’s shown that what they’re claiming is false, we need to investigate their claims of further ‘massacres’ very carefully.
I take such killings seriously.
And I even have a solution.
Have the Palestinians put down their arms, stop blowing up Israeli cafes and discos, and return to the negotiating table.
And what if Israel, the nasty bully makes a bad offer as a starting negotiating tactic?
Then the Palestinians STILL go back to the table and try to hammer something out.
If you mean that I won’t say Palestinian terrorism is okay
or that Israel should do anything other than respond militarily to imminent terrorism
then yes, you are right.
neither point is debatable.
If the Israelis were to put down their weapons, which are an effective deterrent, they’d all be slaughtered.
If the Palestinians were to put down their weapons, which are not an effective deterrent, they’d be living in peace and economic prosperity.
I too hope others will learn from my example. ;j