Well excuse the fuck out of me. I do believe you said
Which implies to me your talking about the PA killing these people to place blame on the IDF. You were talking about that weren’t you because now your saying that they were soldiers and not civilians?
What does
mean if not what I took it to mean?
If Israel is a war zone, this would justify Hamas bombing a bus it thinks an IDF agent is “hiding” in. Might the IDF not blow up its own buses as a PR exercise?
Let us forego such nonsense. The Israeli Army has, and continues to, opened fire on children who weren’t carrying explosives or buiding tunnels. It has fired missiles at crowds of civilians. Defend this if you will.
And neither do the PLO govern a viable state.
Sure there are innocent Palestinians.
If 60% of them support terrorism directed at Israeli civilians, there are 40% of 'em who are innocent.
If 80%, then there are 20% that are innocent.
I’m sorry, but a desire for genocide is enough to disqualify you from ‘innocence’ in my book.
Again, yep.
If the Palestinians use children as soldiers, then unfortunately Israel has to shoot them in a war.
It’s sad, it’s sick, but it’s the Palestinians’ fault.
Yes, I believe some Palestinians are innocent.
I also believe that the majority of them want to murder all the Jews and destroy the state of Israel, and are thus not innocent.
Now.
If they provide moral and material support to terrorists, and if terrorists wear no uniform, and there’s no way to pick them out from the general population…
So yeah.
If an entire society-as-a-whole (check the PLO charter) is at war with you, I think that it’s fairly safe to assume most of 'em want your death.
And YES, the IDF may very well have killed INNOCENT CIVILIANS and if they have it is a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE EVENT. But they HAVE to defend themselves from terrorism, and there will be accidental deaths due to the fog of war. It’s horrible, but I have a way so NO more Palestinians will be killed: They put down their arms and rejoin negotiations!
I admit, I missed this beautiful choice of phrase.
I’d say they were dispersed quite successfully, some of them over a wide area.
Why Not Palestinian Elections?
It’s an insight into the mindset of the Israeli murderers. Promote the chaos, steal the territory.
I see.
So the Palstinians are using women and children as soldiers, and the Palestinians are shooting their own children in the head so that they can blame it on IDF snipers, am I right?
And about 60 - 80% of the Palestinians are viable military targets because they want to kill all the Jews and wipe the State of Israel off the map. And the remaining 20 - 40% of Palestinians who aren’t viable targets are pretty much indistinguishable from the others anyway…
Well then it looks like we really don’t have all that much to say to each other after all. Sorry to waste your time, and have a nice life
yojimbo, yes, it needs to be investigated if those children were killed by PA snipers or Israelis, and if they were killed by Israelis if they were serving as soldiers for the PA.
Or maybe Jew hating aliens did it.
Yep, a group of enemies moving into a combat zone were killed…
(there is no moral or ethical claim that the IDF has to ‘play nice’ with the folks who declared war on Israel. That’s war, if they don’t like it, the Palestinians should rejoin negotiations and stop the violence)
Yes, if they were innocent it WAS an ATTROCIOUS attack.
However.
Remember that the fog of war is not just an abstraction.
And in the heat of battle a tank commander might very well decide to fire a shell into a mob that he felt was hostile.
It depends, if Hamas was TARGETING military targets and civilians got caught in the crossfire?
I’d still say the Intifada was morally bankrupt, but I’d at least say there weren’t acting like genocidal monsters.
YES. Let’s get rid of the nonsense please.
If the Palestinians routinely use their children, women, and young men to orchestrate attacks against civilians while the Palestinians wear NO uniforms or ways to mark them as combatants, then WHY can you fault the Israelis for not being sure which Palestinians are out to kill them and which aren’t?
Could YOU tell if it was YOUR life on the line?
Um…
So fucking what?
Because they don’t have a viable state, having a charter which calls for genocide is cool?
Oh come now.
The fact that the Palestinians are, again, sending children and women to fight is quite plausible.
Your facetious little denial is beneath you.
Even soldiers in the israeli army have refused to carry out their orders.
http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp
You can find lots of other cites for this too.
What does that say about these orders - that even members of the IDF find them immoral, and are willing to be branded as traitors rather than obey them.
That Israel is a functional democracy and that their military is more moral than the Palestinians?
How many members of Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad et al refuse to participate due to THEIR orders? How many of them that object get to survive, period?
I’m sure some of the IDF orders are viewed as beyond the pale, but the fact that they can object and not be shot is proof of something, that’s for sure.
Did you even read any of the statements by the officers who signed that letter. As just one example…
Funny… firing rubber bullets at people throwing stones seems like exercising restraint.
Oh, I know, the liberals fall all over themselves to say “but they were only throwing rocks!”
Guess what, you’re just as dead if you catch a rock to the head as if you catch a bullet.
And, nothing I saw from this said that the soldier was objecting to orders to shoot kids in the head.
Nothing he was objecting to was even a crime. The worst being “driving a jeep recklessly.”
If that’s the best you can do, it’s kinda ridiculous.
Has an IDF been killed by a thrown rock to the head?
Has the IDF stood around like good lil’ targets while the enemy was using lethal and/or enough force to at the very least break bones?
What course of action would YOU feel entitled to if you were being chased by a mob of people hurling bricks at your head?
Restraint? Rubber bullets - as used by the Israelis - can kill people …
see http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/24/health/main510084.shtml
If you had read the information on the link sent to you previously, you would have seen that the demonstrators are not just Palestinians, but also Israeli members of ‘Courage to Refuse’.
Rubber bullets as used by anybody can kill people.
The point is that the Israelis are using the best known crowd control, and if they’re untrained and met by mobs who want to kill them, and the kids get nervous and don’t maintain proper firing discipline, yes, it’s a drag, but they’ll be casualties.
I’m unaware of any time I explicitly stated that Israel doesn’t have a refusnik element in its population. Nor have I ever stated that having such a segment of your population is in any way wrong or bad.
So, there is dissent within a democracy while the Palestinians, as per the PLO charter, are set up to regard Jihad as their primary purpose in education, and not math and science.
A number of times on this thread the protestors have been referred to as ‘Palestinians’. I was just trying to point out that that was not necessarily the case and that some Israelis, too, were outraged enough at their government’s policies to join these protests.