I don’t want friends like that. Our reputation is already bad enough.
Oh yeah, there’s some real moral superiors in the ME… :rolleyes:
Sam
What did the witnesses and news reporters say about Jenin? Turned out to be a gross fabrication if I recall correctly.
I’m confident there will be an investigation. Until then why doesn’t everyone just continue jumping to conclusions (just don’t break an ankle)
Where’s a mat when you need one?
Hmm, well because they “cried wolf” once, we’re not going to believe them now? Heck, even the IDF admits they fired rounds near the crowd into an abandoned building, with shrapnel and debris from that killing some of the protestors. What were they thinking firing from tanks and assault helicopters anywhere near a crowd?
I “jumped to conclusions” because based on the news reports so far, a massacre is the picture being drawn. I have seen the photos and the accounts from the news reporters. Israel already admitted they fired, so even if that is the least they did, I still find it reprehensible. If you find evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it.
While it may strike you as improbable, there’re actually other options than those you’ve listed. A simple thing that comes to my mind without much thought is to make loan guantees contingent upon Israeli behavior being in accordance with US wishes. No need for an embargo or starving Israelis or any of the other hyperbole you proposed.
Is that really all you got out of his post? Stop doing exactly what he suggested we all not do-Jump to conclusions.
SimonX- This whole thread is hyperbole. The options I’ve listed in the post you quoted are based on actual situations and what the US and UN consider “punishment” pointed at countries that defy them. We’ve done it to Libya, Iraq and others as well.
Sam
When was the last time we carpet-bombed anything?
I think it’s called “shock and awe” nowadays. 
[sub]And yes it’s much weaker then traditional carpet bombing[/sub]
Well, okay. It’s just that when I see the term “carpet-bombing” I don’t think “lots of precision bombing using guided munitions.” I tend to think “Arclight.”
<grouchy old man>
When I was a boy, we knew how to really carpet-bomb stuff. Lazy damned kids.
</grouchy old man>
Has anybody gotten anything further? I’d really like to know what actually happened, and whatever the OP may think, I’m more inclined to believe the IDF than the Palestinian spokesman-of-the-week.
Sorry, you’re correct. Though I’d still say “carpet bombing” could be loosely used to describe our bombing runs.
Sam
I find it hard to believe that Israeli troops just randomly opened fire on a peacefully protesting group of Palestinians for the purpose of killing civilians. If this turns out to be true, however, I wholeheartedly condemn such an action and will be just as furious as you are, nyctea. But seeing as how the United States apparently just opened fire on an Iraqi wedding party, killing 40-45 civilians, including women and children, I hardly think we’re in a position to point fingers and criticize (and no, I’m not claiming we did it on purpose, but we don’t know that the Israelis did either – that’s my point).
There’s no question that firing on unarmed protestors isn’t acceptable, and I don’t think anybody would defend it, or the action of that helicopter pilot. However, before people use this to judge Israel, or the Israeli government, lets wait and see what happens next. We don’t know if the helicopter pilot acted on orders, we don’t know if he’s going to be court martialed, we don’t know much.
Obviously, if shooting on protesters is Israeli policy, that’s something to condemn, but if it’s a rogue action, then we shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Agreed. Israel’s defenders should not borrow tactics from scummy organizations like Hamas. If this is true it’s terrible.
One could easily say the same about “mending fences” to the Arab world right now. Like many other supporters of Israel I’m perfectly willing to condemn Israeli actions when wrong. OTOH I have yet to see much condemnation of Arab/Muslim crimes in the Arab world. Arafat and his disgusting band of suicide bombers aren’t exactly the pariahs they deserve to be . . .
I’m probably missing something, but how is the article dated 6:22 PM tomorrow, when Israel is 7 hours ahead of Eastern Standard?
I have to question the whole thing.
I don’t believe for an instant that the IDF is as pure as the driven snow, but opening fire on a crowd just doesn’t seem like something they’d do. They have a tough job, and mistakes happen, but an outright massacre seems unlikely. They know they’d catch a raft of shit for something like that. Keep in mind, there are a lot of Palestinian “militants” who won’t blink at the idea of using children as shields in a gunfight.
In the absence of more information, I’m inclined to chalk this up as more Palestinian bullshit.
Apparently, the Bush administration has now condemned the actions:
Most of the dead were school-age children.
Independent observers reported that none of the crowd were armed, let alone firing.
How is firing a rocket into a crowd different to detonating a suicide bomb in a crowd? How can a child shot in the back by a sniper be a “mistake”?
If these Israeli “mistakes” or “accidents” actually kill far more civilians than Palestinian murders then surely such utter, gross negligence approaches outright murder? If I were to walk down a suspected terrorist’s street blindfold spraying bullets randomly, I would expect to be charged with murder, not negligence, for any deaths I caused. This and other helicopter rocket attacks seem like Hamas bombing a bus full of civilians because it think one of them works for the IDF.
(I hereby utterly condemn the deliberate targetting of civilians by Hamas, Hezbollah etc., and their horrific display of the body parts of Israeli troops killed in the successful military operation which sparked this destruction of civilian homes.)
Sorry, I linked to one wrong article above.
Should be [ur=http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1220635,00.html]children shot dead by army snipers.