Killing civilians is wrong. Doesn’t matter which side’s doing it.
I saw identical stories concerning Fallujah and US snipers. I’ve also read skeptical articles indicating that this is not how trained snipers behave. So I’m of two minds here; one of which suspects that the media is being played by the Palestinians (who have an obvious interest in portraying the IDF as blood thirsty butchers). Given the lack of military advantage and intensely negative public reaction, what would the IDF (or US Marines,in the case of Fallujah) gain by sniping women and children?
Take this for what it’s worth but regarding snipers.
I was watching CH4 news (a respected British news source) a few weeks ago and a British reporter not a Palestinian or Iraqi said from Fallujah that he had personally seen a nurse getting shot in the back by a sniper (whom the reporter also saw in the distance on a rooftop )while trying to get injured out of a truck. This incident happened about 10mins before he made the live report on the news and he sounded quite shaken up.
Well apparently Army guards are trained so that butter won’t melt in their mouths either. Your point is?
I totally agree with Sentient Meat on this one. This incident is just one more in a long line of similar incidents in which Israel and the IDF have shown an utter and callous disregard for innocent life. Israel’s apologies ring hollow, and I’m convinced that despite their assurances of “investigations”, no one will be punished for this filthy crime, and no one will be held accountable.
Who gave the order to fire? What kind of mental degenerate thinks it’s okay to fire high-explosive tank rounds and air-to-surface missiles anywhere near a group of demonstrators, even as a “warning shot”? How could there not be horrific loss of life in such circumstances?
I’m sorry, but at this point in the conflict, I’ve come to believe that the IDF are either deliberately targetting civilians, or really just don’t give a shit about the bystanders. There have been far too many of these so-called “regrettable accidents”, and Israel has gotten away with it time and time again.
The IDF is calling the action in Gaza a hunt for tunnels/terrorists/and bomb factories. It seems that these types of actions always fall closely on the footsteps of a single incedent were the IDF takes a number of casualties. So a bunch of emotionally charged soldiers are let loose on a beligerant populace. What a great mix.
I wish they’d just be honest and say “this is a tit” or “this is a tat”.
Ya, and Palestine, the PLO and all of it’s assorted terror groups have been punished repeatedly by the UN, right? Not. And not nearly enough, either. I personally just want to see some sort of equal treatment.
Why is it that people cry foul and demand that Israel be punished on a regular basis, but no one screams for Arafat to be punished or censured when his government or the terror groups within their borders act badly?
I’m not defending Israel. If this did happen like it has been reported, it’s an outrage. But I’m honestly sick and fucking tired of people decrying Israel’s behavior while overlooking Palestine’s.
Sam
Who says that terrorists shouldn’t be punished? I personally think that anyone who orchestrates attacks against civilians should be captured, arrested, tried in a court of law, and then jailed for life. What I don’t think should happen is for Israeli helicopters to fire missiles at them while they sit in their cars on crowded streets in so-called “targetted killings”. Face it, the IDF have done this kind of thing too many times to keep claiming that they’re accidents. How many innocent bystanders have to die before they learn that shrapnel isn’t all that precise?
I think that part of it is Isreal’s impedence of the Palestines actually forming a cohesive government. We’ve been friends of the Isrealis and, in my opinion, rightly endorse the democracy that exists there. But too often we wrongly blindly endorse the actions of that democracy. Endorsing a style of government should not mean that we endorse every action of that government. In fact, contrary to the opinions of the namer of the “Freedom fries”, it’s a good thing to see some disagreement among democracies.
We should be actively attempting to foist democracy upon the Palestinians, even if their choice of leadership leaves a bad taste in our mouths. We should be actively chastising any neighboring nation that does anything to impede the path towards democracy.
Arafat is a grade A ass. And the fact that he officially supports a terror organization disgusts the hell out of me. But I think in the long run the Palestinians themselves will do a better job at getting the assholes out of office than the UN, Isreal, the US, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, or anyone can. Until the Palestinians are allowed to have an unimpeded and freely elected government, we can rightly hold Isreal up to a higher standard.
And even if the Palestinians do get it, it will be this biggest bumbling, pigheaded, directionless democracy on the face of the planet for at least a decade, if not two. But there comes a point when putting a light at the end of a twenty year tunnel is better than sixty more years of bullshit.
I’m not saying anyone is, and I don’t think that can be read into my post at all. I am saying that we end up with 10 of these Anti-Israeli posts per month while only getting 1 or less anti-Palestinian thread in the same time period. Even though the Palestinians expressly target civilians, the “collateral damage”, or bystanders that are killed by the IDF seem to be more important.
Looking back on our track record of “foisting” Democracy on other countries, why in the fuck would you think that?
Once again, I beg to differ. That’s like saying you hold America to a higher standard over the former regime of Saddam Hussein because we have a freely elected democracy(Republic). They have an official government, not just a ragtag bunch of clerics. Whether freely elected or not, they should be always held to the same standards as Israel.
This is exactly what I’m bitching about. This arbitrary act of holding one government to a higher standard than another.
Sam
Germany? Japan? Philipines? That’s such a bad history?
It’s more of a suprise when a democracy does something like starting a war unprovoked or supports terrorism. So yes, there is a big difference. In a democracy, there is accountability. In a dictatorship, there is not. I do not wish Palestine to become a dictatorship. That would only make things worse. Even the Palestinians see Arafat as the corrupt bumbling fool playing two sides that he is, but he’s all they have at the moment, and Isreal makes a habit out of making him look good, so he continues to garner support. In a democracy, he would be forced to actually accomplish something. Which is a talent that Mr. Arafat has not shown himself to be particularly adept.
Not arbitrary, as I explained above. I don’t see what the Palestinians have as a “government”. Once they are allowed to freely form a government, that is when I take the onus off Isreal.
The thing is, only one of these actions is being done with weapons purchased with my tax dollars. If I had an inkling that my tax dollars were being used to purchase semtex for suicide bombers, I’d be screaming my head off about that, too.
See, here’s the thing: when my government is committing an evil and I rail about it, my railing actually has a chance of having some effect. When a hostile organization is committing an evil and I rail about it, my railing is at best going to leave me with a sore throat and at worst is going to egg on the hostile organization.
This is similar to what happened with Iraq. Sure, I’ve decried my own government’s actions far more than the Baathists’ actions. That in no way indicates that I think my own government has done more evil in Iraq than the Baathists; it merely indicates that I think I’ve got marginally more control over my own government than I have over the Baathists.
Again, as near as I know, I helped purchase that tank shell that killed the Palestinian kids. I get some say in how it’s used, and whether I help purchase more tank shells.
Daniel
There is a difference. The Palestinian terrorists make no bones about their strategy. They are not an organized, official army of a Democratic nation, they are a rogue band of terrorists who want to blow up civillians…they don’t have tanks, helicopters and all the other billion-dollar military equipment. They don’t have any other way to wage their war. Since they have no “big guns” they have to resort to crude means. We expect this from them. Their actions, on their face, are reprehensible.
The Israeli army, however, is an organized, official army of a Democratic nation. They have the big equipment. They, as a military, have an obligation to abide by rules of war and NOT shoot missiles into a crowd of protesting civillians. That is why we are bitching about them. They get to get away with this shit because they are an army. Well this is the precise reason I think they shouldn’t get away with it.
No offense, but that’s just about the dumbest argument I’ve ever seen.
LHOD’s or nyctea’s?
That was my exact response to reading LHOD’s post. And for nyctea, splitting hairs about who’s more advanced or organized and who should be held more accountable for their actions is ridiculous. THey’re both accountable for their actions and neither should have the option of pointing the finger at the other.
Sam
Well, that’s real informative. Do you have a rebuttal to my argument, or do you just want to call me a stupidhead and hope that wins the debate?
Daniel
Well, you don’t know they will get away with that shit. There’s a lot of internal criticism of the incident, people are protesting, MKs are calling for an investigation, Haaretz has not one, but two editorials protesting it…
[quote]
The commanders of the army understood that, without a moral basis for its actions, even the best-equipped army cannot win. These moral values, however, have been badly eroded in the long years of occupation and with the action in Rafah, they have suffered yet another blow, so that our national fortitude has been undermined. [/qupte]
So, lets see what the IDF does and what happens to the soldiers who did it before you say they “got away” with it.
A- This isn’t a debate.
B- Your idea that Israel can be held more accountable because your “tax dollars” paid for the weaponry is so fucking ludicrous I have no rebuttal. I stare in awe of your lunacy. It’s an intellectually lazy way of either not taking sides, or laying the burden on Israel completely without considering anything else.
Both sides are guilty. Both sides are out of control. Both sides need to be either punished or let alone. One cannot be held to a higher standard of morality. That is the reason, IMO, that the attackers have tried such outlandish things in the last few years-they can get away scot-free with it while Israel is constrained by a vocal global community and consequences of their actions.
Stupidhead.
Let’s try to pick an example from the last couple decades instead of directly after WWII. Things have changed enough since those times that they are no longer a valid example. The world and the US are completely different today and I doubt that our efforts in Iraq will be successful, why fuck up Palestine, too?
Sam
It sucks that I have to school you in grammar yet again, but a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do. In paraphrasing my idea, you changed the active voice to the passive voice, and that completely changes my argument. You continue to be an abrasive, hyperdefensive, and highly unpleasant poster.
Which wouldn’t be so bad if you responded to what people posted instead of to distorted versions of it.
Daniel
Daniel, did you not say:
??
I translate that as follows:
Now, where is this tense change that according to you distorts the meaning of your quote?It’s still intellectually lazy. It still absolves the Palestinians of their complicity in the matter because you basically say it’s none of your business because you aren’t paying for the weapons.
All this was in response to me asking why there are less anti-palestinian threads on the board. Please point out my distortion.
Sam