^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stop with all the indignant “titty sucking” comments, she said he didn’t do that.
I think Pundit Lisa and Influential Panda said it best.
Life hurts. We get lonely. We get insecure. Love feels so risky. How can we ever know if he loves us or not? How can we ever feel 100% sure? You can’t.
And that fact hurts, and it’s terrifying. So we do the only thing we know how to do- try to control others. Try to make them love us. Tell ourselves that if they really loved us, they’d never do anything that makes us unhappy. Tell ourselves that if he just loved us enough we’d feel happy all the time. That another person can be an absolute perfect compliment. We throw all these emotions on someone else’s lap, and expect that they will be able to shoulder the load because they “love” us.
And it won’t ever work. It won’t ever be enough. No matter how loving, how caring your husband is, he can’t make take away that nagging doubt. If it’s not this, it will be another thing. He can’t be 100% to you. He’s not your perfect compliment. He’s not the one person in the world who will never hurt you. He’s just a person.
And it’s really not fair of you to try. Your husband is not a dumping ground for your insecurities. He is a human. A complicated, faulty, unpredictable human. And his humanity is why you love him. If you could control his emotions, would you still be able to call that love?
If you have feelings of insecurity, your first defense is “how can I make myself feel better about this.” Your feelings are at their base your responsibility. One idea- go out with some friends and at least try to have a good time instead of sitting around getting yourself worked up. Your second defense is “how can I work with my husband to address these feelings.” This doesn’t mean pulling the “If you really loved me…” trick. Real compromise doesn’t include guilt games like that. You don’t automatically win because you’ll cry if you don’t get your way. You need to draw boundaries that you both actually agree on, and you gotta accept that these boundaries might still hurt sometimes. That’s part of loving a real live human.
In short, every day in a relationship you have two choices- stay or go. If he does something you can’t live with, go. If you don’t go, you have a responsibility to deal with your emotions. He’s not going to change, you can’t make it happen, and it’s not fair to even ask. Sucks, but pain is a part of what comes with life.
I just read the first page (will continue later) and had to respond.
I used to work for years at some of these. To the women, its all about the money. But its rare to have a woman get that physical with a customer, I’ve seen it only once out of 1,000 women.
- he cheated on you.
- is likely to do it again.
- This is what gets me, your comment about never leaving him. Women stay almost always when their husband cheats. Why, is beyond me. Most men realize this, which is why so many do it.
If women started leaving these men who cheat, there would be less men willing to risk doing so.
It makes women seem like doormats.
I read the first couple of pages, so apologies if someone has already made exactly this point (and since it’s only my opinion anyway, I don’t see repetition of someone else’s view as a big problem).
If I did something like this, then expected my wife to just deal with it, I would fully expect her to leave me. I’m not suggesting that as a course of action, but it seems to me that there’s a problem here that for which a unilateral solution is inadequate.
If I did something like that (under the influence of alcohol, peer pressure, etc), then expressed genuine regret and contrition afterwards, I’d hope that my wife would be able to accept it and that together, we’d find a way to work through it.
But something like “sorry, baby, that’s what guys do” is contemptible, unacceptable bullshit in my book. It may be what guys do, but it’s not what they should do in a committed relationship where the other partner has a significant problem with it.
If my fiance went to a strip club, I’d have no problem.
If my fiance had a (one) lap dance, no problem
If lap dance was private - problem
If fiance went to strip clubs several times a year - that could be a potential problem.
If my fiance had confessed to me a situation like yours or simular - kid or no kid, I’d have postponed the wedding, maybe even cancelled it. But, that is in the past and you can only focus on the present and future.
When I was married to my ex hub, it bothered me that he would go to strip clubs (even though he didnt go very often) or even to bars with his friends because deep down I didnt trust him. The more of a big deal I made, the more he was determined to go and enjoy himself. When I stopped caring (and our relation was dissolving), he didnt seem to have the desire to go because I really didnt give a crap anymore and it didnt bother me. That’s when he started to see I meant business. Unfortunately it was too little change and too late on his part. I had a deep hate for him by then.
When I joined the dating scene again, I actually had fun going to the strip clubs and even bought a then bf a birthday lapdance on stage… no nipples inserted in mouth, no private dance, and no touching allowed!
I had a point here, what was it? Oh yeah! IMO, I think your hub is doing this as a mind game - knowing you will get upset but going against your wishes anyway.
If it were me, I’d be inviting myself to go with. If that is not an option, then I would no longer make a big deal and I’d start getting out of the house and doing my own thing. If you lose interesting in what he’s doing and start doing your own things that he’s not invited to - maybe that will get his attention. And by not begging him not to go somewhere - he’ll no longer have this sick way of making you miserable.
Pixilated has good advice!
Stop crying about it and begging and pleading with him not to go. Tell him you are disappointed with his lack of self control but that you are not going to be the badguy and put a kabash on his idea of fun. He now knows where you stand on the issue, he’s a grownup and can make his own choices. It will just show you where you rate on his priority list.
I would also insist that he spend his own fun money, and wash his own cum emcrusted shorts. And before he touches you tell him in all seriousness that he needs to get checked for std’s, including hepatitis as well, who knows how many tongues were on that nipple for hire?
Rather late for that last one, isn’t it, as it happened before they were married, well over a year ago.
OP’s husband was insensitive, OP was/is oversensitive. Hard for me to sympathize; that OP appears to lack self-confidence, which would have ended things with me long before marriage. To each their own.
Because women have a much shorter dating shelf life than men. They split up and she’s now just another 30+ single woman competing with 20 somethings for the small pool of guys who a) are financially stable, b) looking for a long-term committed relationship and c) not complete D-bags. He just goes on free and unattached to his life of douchebaggary.
So…then no different than any other woman?
I do know a couple of guys, who did marry strippers. One of them was actually “that guy”. You know, one of the group of dudes waiting outside the club to pick up their girlfriends after work. Some guys actually do get into dating relationships with strippers. They are people just like anyone else and are just as inclined to forming relationships with their customers and business partners as the rest of us.
Personally though, I wouldn’t date one seriously simply because they do spend their entire time suducing men to give them money and I’m sure they get good at it. So basically I would always have in the back of my mind that she was trying to manipulate me.
No offense, but you are one uptight crowd.
As with last time, there have been several responses since my last reply. So I’m posting this in parts.
Agreed. I am in the process of finding a doctor and setting up an appointment. What my husband did last year was completely out of line and clearly wrong. But my crazy out of control explosion on him was also wrong, possibly more so. I need to work on finding ways to channel my emotions more productively.
Ouch. This was harsh, but I needed to hear it. Saturday night, I became that drama queen and it was very very wrong.
It’s both of our problems. We were both wrong. There are other issues we need to deal with, true, but what marriage doesn’t have issues? The heart-to-heart was only the first of many. It wasn’t a magical fix, but the beginning. As for counseling, see above.
I know my husband well enough to know that this was a one-time slip-up. I have made it explicitly clear to him that if something else even remotely like this happens again, we’re done.
Agreed. I really didn’t want my husband to go, but I also don’t want to forbid him from doing anything. Just typing that word gives me the heebie jeebies. So I let him know how I felt and let him decide what to do. It obviously bothered me way more than I had thought it would. I was doing alright up until he called to let me know he was about to go in and they didn’t allow picture phones so he had to leave his on the limo bus. Somehow it also came out that it was a bottomless club. That comment was what set me over the edge. I then somehow became convinced that this club was even seedier than the one from hubby’s bachelor party and therefore more likely to encourage a similar type of behavior on the part of the guys.
We are working on the trust issues. They are more in my head than they are related to anything my husband did. Again, see above with the counseling.
:eek:
He wouldn’t cheat under other circumstances. I gave him permission to get a lap dance. Where we differed was in the definition of a lap dance. He thought what he got was a lap dance and was OK.
Thank you, ** PunditLisa**. You gave some very sound advice here. To be clear, I was upset that he went out to a strip club, not that he went out with the guys at all. I encourage him to go out with his friends. We both have our own friends we hang out with on a regular basis. We also have mutual friends we hang out with together. It was the location that bothered me, not the going out with friends.
If he reacted with embarrassment, I would say I agree with you. He didn’t. He was happy about it at the time, felt bad about it later.
Thank you, Stranger. Again, excellent advice. Assumption on my part was a huge contributor to what happened. I need to work on being more open and honest about how I feel, especially with such an emotionally loaded issue.
We were both at fault here. I blame myself just as much as I do my husband. I will start with individual counseling and go from there.
Ding, ding, ding, ding!!! You are right on target, especially with what I’ll talk about with the counselor. It is completely unfair for me to transfer my past issues onto my husband, but it is very difficult to stop doing. When you get hurt so many times by so many people, it’s all too easy to assume the worst with everyone. It’s not a matter of if someone will hurt me, it’s when. Again, not right, but it’s how my mind has come to figure things.
The trigger comment was spot on. See above where he talked about the club being bottomless.
So very true. It kills me to think that I helped play into that stereotype about the batshit crazy women.
Wow. Just wow. I re-read your post at least 5 times. It makes a lot of sense to me and really helped. Thank you.
Tamara, see above where I talk about leaving him if anything like this happens again. There was enough room for possible ambiguity here that I just have to give him another chance. I’m not willing to break up my family over what could be interpreted as a misunderstanding.
Really? How many times does it have to be said that the issue isn’t the strip club per se, or even what he did there, but the fact that his wife perceived him as knowingly choosing to hurt her. Some people have responded that what he did at his bachelor’s party qualifies as cheating, and therefore it was wrong and DoperChic is justified in her emotions. Others have responded that what he did would not qualify as cheating in their relationships (including mine) but since it qualifies as cheating in their relationship, DoperChic is justified in her emotions. In any case, THAT’S NOT THE POINT. What is permissible in anyone else’s relationship is completely irrelevant to DoperChic and her husband. If they’ve agreed that they are not allowed to have orgasms with other people, then having an orgasm via lapdance constitutes cheating within their relationship.
I get the feeling, though, that they had never explicitly discussed what was and wasn’t permissible, and that’s a big part of what lead to this drama. What CrazyCatLady said about the differences between how men and women think (especially about emotions and relationships) rings true to me, as did what Stranger On A Train said about the differences between male and female sexuality. Bridging those gaps to create a happy, sustainable, long-term relationship takes a lot of communication. It also requires each partner to respect those differences, not judge them or try to change the way they think and feel.
DoperChic’s husband may never understand on an emotional level why she was so upset by his behavior at his bachelor party, or why she was upset when he went to another strip club for his friend’s bachelor party, but he should try to understand on a logical level and respect her feelings. And DoperChic may never understand how he can have sexual feelings without attaching emotions to them, but she should respect that it’s so and not see it as something that needs to be fixed. (Not that DoperChic necessarily sees it that way, but a lot of women seem to.) In any case, I think both DoperChic and her husband need to work on discussing their expectations and feelings openly with each other.
That’s it, exactly. My husband thought that what he received was a normal, acceptable lap dance. But I never in my wildest dreams imagined that I would have to be so explicit as to say no kissing, no nipples in/on your mouth, no 20 minute sessions that lead to orgasm, etc. I had an image in my mind of him in front of his friends in the public area with some chick wiggling her butt on his lap for a few minutes. To me, kissing of any kind is cheating. He says her lips barely touched his. But they TOUCHED!! Her nipple barely grazed his lips. But it touched. The fact that he didn’t immediately stand up after the first kiss and end it hurt and pissed me off.
Hubby completely separated the sexual acts from any sort of emotion. I clearly cannot.
And both of those are okay, it just means that you’ll have to work harder to bridge the gap.
DoperChic, I’ve just read your responses, and I want to commend you on your willingness and desire to improve yourself and your relationship, as well as your cool head in dealing with (or ignoring) some of the more inflammatory posts in this thread. Personally, I don’t think your relationship is in any way doomed. I think you’re just going through the rough patch that a lot of us (especially us younger types) hit in a relationship when we realize that our partner doesn’t always perceive things in the same way we do. If your husband is half as willing to work on the relationship as you are, I think you’ll do well.
[counseling hijack]As has been posted OP, I think you’ll learn from counseling that not everybody thinks or communicates the same way you do. I also think you can learn never to jump to black-and-white conclusions, e.g., “This is 100% his fault or mine.” Work on really and truly forgiving each other and when it gets tough, remember that you have a child who deserves two parents if at all possible. [/counseling hijack]
I have heard other guys say that at the bachelor party, it’s the best man’s job to get the groom laid. “Tomorrow you get married…last chance!” I’m not saying I condone it but playing Devil’s Advocate, he may think he stopped short of what the guys were offering him.
I rarely get invited to stag parties, which is probably a good thing. There’s a woman I work with who I think is pretty terrific. Hard to explain; when we met we just took a shine to each other. Had she been available, maybe we would have dated, but I still think she’s cool and it’s mutual. There’s a big brother/little sister dynamic at times, mentor/protegée at others maybe…we just get along great.
Anyway, she’s getting married. I don’t even know the groom-to-be, so I’m not invited to the stag party (if there is one). But if something like that happened at his stag party and I witnessed it, I’d_have_one_serious_ethical_dilemma.
Reading this thread has made me realize that I would never dare to touch a stripper at a club, let alone put my mouth on her–I mean, just think how many pathogens must be communicated that way! What a totally unsanitary profession! No way! Lesson to the ladies: marry a man with a disease phobia. 
On a more serious note, I would say that the ability to separate sexual acts from any sort of emotion is pretty normal for males. To us, as Stranger on a Train noted, orgasm is not much more inherently “personal” and “intimate” than urinating. That’s why the fact that a man has sex with you doesn’t mean he loves you, or even likes you. And it’s why a man can do what DoperChic’s husband did and not feel that he is being unfaithful.
It seems many women feel very differently about these matters. Whenever there’s a profound difference of opinion, it isn’t wise to assume that the other person understands your point of view. Both partners in this marriage seem to have made some naive assumptions about the other’s perspective. Without being able to hear both sides in the dispute, that’s all I can really say.
As for what is normal and/or acceptable behavior for men, I suspect that those who say many or most men aren’t really “wired” for sexual monogamy are right. But the nice thing about our liberal society is that you aren’t expected to promise yourself exclusively to someone if you don’t want to. A man who marries a woman and promises to forsake all others should be held to that promise as long as the marriage lasts. Honoring a solemn oath even if it’s hard is right in line with my concept of masculinity, and I would hope with most people’s.
DoperChic:
Your husband is not doing this in spite of the fact that it hurts you. He is doing this BECAUSE it hurts you. He is cheating on you for similar reasons that I cheated on one of my exes: because doing so in such a way, humiliating you in such a way, and then getting you to stay with him afterwards gives him a feeling of power over you. Well, it’s not just a feeling, actually: he DOES have power over you, power that you have ceded by your acquiescence.
Take your power back.
I really think that we have come to somewhat of a wall regarding how my husband and I interpret what he did. Neither of us is really willing to budge. And maybe it does just needs to be OK. I need to stop trying to change him and how he views what he did. Until that happens, we’ll just be going around in endless needless emotional circles.
Thank you. I just wish I had had that cool head Saturday night as well. That one phone call he made that night set off some old emotions that I thought were dealt with but obviously were not and I snapped. My husband is very willing to work on this with me. He has been there for me through all of my highs and lows for the past 8 years. I have no doubt that he will continue to be there for me and will work with me to overcome this.
Now you tell me this!
I had my husband read this post and he agreed with you. It’s really hard for me to understand this point of view, but I think I need to accept it in order to forgive him and be able to move on.
I have been in counseling before and this is one of the things we worked on. I tend to get very focused on how I perceive something and become convinced that my way is the way things are. For example, my husband going to a strip club means that I’m not doing enough for him, that my body isn’t good enough, and he has to then get his needs met elsewhere. Rationally, I know this isn’t true. Hubby tells me that this isn’t true. But that nagging thought in the back of my mind just won’t let go.
Yes, some men cheat because they are sick and twisted. My husband is not. I’m not sure where you are getting this based on what I’ve told you, but it’s not true. Our relationship is not a constant power struggle. I’m sorry that yours was.