Exactly Astro - plus I like the - downgrading to nipple grazing with eyes closed - part.
A long time ago, I overheard two colleagues talking about a couple they knew. “So they’re going for marriage counseling…” said one.
“Well, that marriage is over,” said the other.
I was shocked. I thought that if you were sick, you saw a doctor, he cured you, etc. Later on I think I realized why they said this.
IMO and IME marriage counseling often doesn’t work because people wait until it’s too fucking painful, they’ve argued till they’re blue in the face, etc. It’s the Hail Mary pass because every attempt to fix it on their own has failed.
By that time you’re too exhausted from dealing with each other ineffectively for so long…and then therapy rips open wounds that never healed properly in the first place. Then you see it for the mountain of problems to fix that it is, and you wonder if you love the other person enough to deal any more.
Earlier, not later, is the best chance for it to work.
Ideally, counseling prevents defcon 3
Seriously, did you miss the part of this thread where people are discussing the OP’s possible contributions to this trainwreck?
A one year marriage isn’t that long - my husband and I were still having the occasional hurtful (to both parties) screaming fit five years into ours. No marriage is perfect, there are always rough spots and misunderstandings. Some folks will work this out on their own, others find a neutral third party to be helpful. “Working it out”, however, does NOT mean the man is vindicated in all things and the woman just has to put up with it. A successful marriage requires adjustments and contributions from BOTH parties. I realize that some men view any compromise or change in their behavior as being “pussy-whipped” or some such, and it’s my opinion such men are better off remaining unmarried so as to have their freedom entirely unfettered. I am also starting to wonder if you are one of those men.
I don’t like that aproach, because it implicitly puts the blame on your partner: you’re essentially saying, “Well, I’d like to go but my wife says I can’t”. You’re implying that your partner is creating the conflict, which strikes me as both disloyal and disingenuous: my wife and I have disagreements on occasion, but they’re certainly not aired publically, and I’d never seek to “blame” her for my actions.
What’s wrong with a plain, straightforward “No thanks” when asked to go to a titty bar? Our friends ought to accept our choices without seeking any further reasons: and if they don’t take that “No thanks” at face value, what kind of friends are they? We’re socialised to believe that we’re obligated to explain or justify our decisions to others, but really we owe that to no-one except those closest to us. Peer pressure - “I don’t really like strip clubs, but all my friends are going” - is too often used to justify bad choices, but there comes a point when you have to accept responsibilty for your own decisions: “blaming” your partner for something you won’t do is childish and cowardly.
I also think that sometimes marriage counseling ends in divorce because the two parties discover that no, they really should NOT have gotten married in the first place. Not every marriage is salvagable.
As for the OP - they both need to work on some issues. That’s nothing unusual in a one-year marriage. It is, however, up to them to work it out, or not, to their own satisfactions.
Or maybe it is because success in counseling has to come from a desire to change, and most relationship counseling stems from a desire to make their partner change And, as astutely related in America’s Finest News Source, the actually effectiveness of counseling is irrelevant to the career success of the counselor: “Last week alone, my haul was a cool $4,500, and I made it just sitting on my ass. Check this out: These couples pay me $200 an hour, and I get paid whether I solve their problems or not. If they leave crying their eyes out, I get paid. If they end up getting divorced… paid!”
Stranger
Hear, hear.
What bothers me most in this bizarre and revealing thread is the husband’s “penitence” and confession, which is somehow supposed to absolve him of his choices. And make no mistake, no matter what he says about “peer pressure” (wtf is that once you’re married? What is that after about age 21 or so?) or drinking or “special” occasions etc, this was his choice. Nobody held a gun to his head and said you must have this lap dance. What is that all about? He does X, goes home and gets what? absolution for his “crime”? Did he stop to realize that while confession might have been good for HIS soul, for her it was just the beginning?
There are several red flags here. I think poor communication played a part in this (but I know of scenarios where the spouse knows full well that what s/he is doing goes against what their other half wants), and I think maturity is a factor as well. Lots of drama in the word choices used in relating this OP. That is not a criticism; I tend to go for hyperbole as well when I am very angry or hurt.
I am dubious of the kiss and make up scene as well. From where I sit, there are serious trust issues in play here and trust is not presto! chango! restored. Trust takes months, if not years to build but is easily destroyed by one night.
As for me, this incident may not end my marriage, but it sure would put it on life support. Counseling is needed–for both or just the OP. And maybe they both need to grow up a bit (not meant harshly, just a fact).
As for the whole men need this type of male bonding, men are pigs, men shouldn’t be pussy whipped stuff by a their harpy of a wife etc-- I can’t think of anything derisive enough to type. Any man who defines himself by shoving limp dollar bills into a sweaty G-string and thinks that’s his god given right to do so no matter his circumstances is no man. He’s a boy with too much testosterone, IMO. And some males are really just old boys until they die. They’re more to be pitied than to be censured, but that doesn’t mean I (or most women) want anything to do with them. I can only hope that the OP’s husband is not one of them, but I fear he might be.
The reasoning that says well, he’s not sleeping with his secretary; he’s not out drinking every night or doing drugs so why are you complaining? is silly. Such a standard to be set for guys… :rolleyes:
There’s that, too. If they work at it, maybe it can be saved yet, but if not, at least they’ll know that they did what they could. Especially when there’s a child involved, I’m for exhausting the possiblities before throwing in the towel.
I once talked to a guy who was the head of counseling services for his (Catholic) church. He said that in his experiences, marriages that fail really end in the first year. That is to say, even if you manage to hold it together for ten or twenty years, the thing(s) the pull it down will show up from the gitgo. So the battle lines are probably drawn, OP.
True dat. I’m also sure there are times when a counselor could tell you that your marriage is over and the client refuses to accept it, insisting instead on further therapy.
Some have theorized that the husband in this case really knew what he was doing all along etc. Suppose that’s true: I predict we would not go to counseling. That, I think, would be an answer in and of itself: “You and the baby aren’t worth enough to me to go.”
But hey, they’re reasonably young and younger people do change more easily than us old farts. Being inexperienced probably caused some bad judgments and a counselor may be able to help with what’s usual/customary, give reality checks, make sure neither is suffering from depression or bipolar stuff, yadda.
I happened on a quote; I’ll spoiler box to let you guess who said it.
You must form your own opinions about women. Men like to subtract, women like to add. Women overcomplicate and men oversimplify. Remember that you don’t think like a female. Always remember that to a woman the relationship is more important than you are.
Jim Belushi, in “Real Men Don’t Apologize.” Provocative title, innit?
The issue isn’t whether it’s ok to go to clubs or not. It basically is defining what rules you as a couple find acceptable and sticking to them.
For most of my friends, it’s pretty much accepted by our wives/GFs that we go to the tittie bars. Bachelor parties aren’t even a question and once a month or so is fine. Basically it’s just a place like a bar or coffee shop where we can go and unwind with some after a hard day of work. I even got my GF a Flashdancers T-shirt from a friends bachelor party. Her friends bachelorette party included “striptease lessons” at V.I.P. Taken in moderation there’s nothing wrong with it.
The GF did start getting a bit upset though because it seemed like we were starting to go a bit to much and she was right.
I agree. If a relationship gets to a point where counseling is needed, then consider it doomed. No amount of counseling is going to change one’s ideas about their role in a committed relationship, nor their expectations of an SO’s role.
Perhaps a question too personal to answer: In your first quote it seemed that your wedding was 7 months into your pregnancy. Is it possible he felt forced to marry you to make an “honest woman” out of you and now is lashing out?
There seems much more here than meets the eye.
Hijack: Is it common for guys to ejaculate at strip clubs?
Spending the rest of the evening with sticky drawers seems like punishment enough, really. Ick.
Never mind, there’s a whole spinoff thread about that.
This topic seems to have elicited a record number of spinoff threads, actually.
How would you have reacted if he had said he was fine with that?
I’m glad you’ve worked through the immediate problems, but having read through this thread it’s made me love my wife even more and realise how lucky I am to have her.
Look, as far as I’m concerned, ejaculating whilst receiving a lap dance is not cheating. It must have been a hell of a lap dance, though because I’ve had a 20 minute lap dance before and whilst I had an erection the whole time I certainly wasn’t receiving any stimulation that could lead to orgasm if continued over a period of time.
This is very, very true.
As is this.
I think a big factor in Mars/Venus type “miscommunications” is that women tend to expect a lot more…I guess emotional intuition is the best term…in men than they tend to show. We tend to have this little motor in the back of our minds that runs through what’s being said and done and extrapolating all sorts of implications for future behavior, impact on relationships, all sorts of stuff. Put a situation you’ve been in in front of someone else with the little motor, and she’ll draw the same conclusions, so communication between women tends to have a lot of things that aren’t really articulated, but are pretty fully understood.
The motor makes a lot of stuff seem really, really, REALLY painfully obvious to us. Anyone-who-isn’t-a-total-moron-understands-this level obvious. We give our fellers credit for not being total morons, and not being patronizing twats who explain the blatantly obvious, we don’t always come right out and say “Look, sucking a stripper’s titty and getting ridden off while I sat at home feeling fat, ugly and hormonal was terribly hurtful and a total betrayal. If you go back into the exact same situation, I’m going to be really hurt and upset because I don’t really have a lot of reason to trust you at this point.” That someone would need such a thing spelled out in detail is just totally mindboggling to us.
But men tend not to have the little motor, and many of them seem to need just exactly that level of explicitness. That we would expect them just automatically know these things without being told seems completely insane to them.
So women have stereotypes about men being just too damn stupid to live, and men have stereotypes about women being batshit crazy.
Add to this that -
1: Many women quite deliberately choose the cute, sexy, self assured/slightly arrogant non-intuitive model for making babies, and then complain & whine when they discover the sensitivity module is not part of the sexy/arrogant package.
2: Some women will state something as a point of information or fact to thier SOs re acceptable limits of behavior and yet mean something else entirely that they expect the SO will parse out if they “really cared.”
1 is annoying and 2 is crazy making.
Remember the stripper has no interest and feeling for your husband or any one else who comes into the club. They see dollar bills when he walks in and that is what they are after. He is not establishing a relationship . The clubs are full of married men who go home to their wives. Life goes on unless you want to drop the gloves and wont let it go. Then you have a different problem. But, do not blame the stupid clubs for that.
If my husband had done that before we got married, there wouldn’t BE a wedding. It’s bad enough when a man has lost any sexual interest in his wife after 10 or so years of marriage. It’s on a whole other level when a man disrespects the woman he hasn’t even married yet and gets off on some random skank.
Doperchic, I’m in your corner.
Strip clubs mean different things to different guys. I haven’t gone since I’ve been married, but when I was single and went there, I definitely went over the top. As such, I know that they are not the place as a married man I should be frequenting.
Now, if a man goes there, has a few beers and does the equivalent of looking at a live version of Penthouse magazine, then I don’t see the problem with it, as long as his wife is fine with it.
That is the key point here. Two people in a relationship need to come to an understanding as to what each want/need. A healthy relationship will give rise to the idea that each person needs his/her own freedom and with that freedom would never do something to harm the fundamental nature of the relationship. If you don’t have that trust in your husband, you can lock him in the house and keep him 20 miles from the nearest strip club, and it won’t make the problem go away.
The fact that he told you about coming in his pants with the last stripper shows a huge disconnect from reality on his part or an extreme amount of immaturity.
In my short married life, I’ve learned that demands for change and wishes for change don’t work. You both have to respect each other for who you are and what you like to do. You each need to set boundaries as to where the line needs to be drawn. If one or both of you can’t agree to these terms, then it will never work.
Sucking on a stipper’s titties is certainly a reasonable no-no to set in a marriage, and I’m sure he will promise on a stack of Bibles that he will never do it again. Maybe he is a guy like me and needs to stay out of the strip clubs.
I love my wife dearly, but get me about half loaded in a roomful of beautful naked women, and I am emptying the ATM to get laid. I fall in love in these situations and I am the sucker they look for. That is why I stay away from these places.
One final thought: You seem to be saying that a stripper grinding on him for 20 minutes is fine as long as he didn’t come. But the fact that he came makes it worse?