My SO's ex-wife, our kids, the 4th of July, and my immaturity

In My Humble Opinion
1

Brevity: My SO’s ex-wife wants to join us for fireworks but she’s been an on-and-off nasty person to my SO and to me via the kids. Due to her history, I don’t want her there but I wonder if I’m putting my needs ahead of the kids.

Verbosity:My SO’s ex-wife, let’s call her “E”, divorced my partner over 4 years ago. She found another guy and moved out pretty much right away. She got money hungry and gave up custody of the kids to have more of a cash payout. She has visitation an sees the kids from Saturday morning until Sunday afternoon. When they first split, she took the kids half of the week, but when the money ran out (because E and her new husband spent $150K on vacations and crack) she developed a drinking problem and went into rehab. Since the first time she went into rehab, we have had the kids at our house the majority of the time (and she has occassionally expressed wanting to have the kids more, but when pressed, she declines taking the kids more than one day a week).

I’ll take some blame here as the problem started with me. When my SO and I met, he was still willing to say “how high” when E said “jump”. Her new husband quit his job when they got the divorce payoff and when the money was gone, she expected him to work as he didn’t want to. Of course, my SO had to mortgage two houses to pay her off (as he really wanted custody of the kids) and when E’s money ran out, she turned to my SO. At first, it was things like “can you send some food with the kids when you send them over” and then it became requests for $50 bucks for the kids (which turned out to be spent on booze). After we found out it was for booze, I told my SO to put his foot down. This was a first and so when she was denied when she asked for money, the shit hit the fan. She threatened to sue for full custody of the kids and outed my SO to the kids stating that “Daddy’s a faggot” and worse. (This was at the beginning of our relationship and the kids knew me as “Dad’s friend” which was easier for them to get to know me and we really hadn’t defined our relationship, so why jump the gun we thought).

Now, a bit of backstory, my SO and E met at a gay bar. My SO came out when he was 16, but since he’s a bit of a people pleaser, he wanted to make his dad happy and have a family. E was obese and had self-esteem issues so she was happy to make concessions and they started a relationship. So she knew the whole time his preference.

As years went by, the invectives we heard from the children were disturbing. E became increasingly jealous and would hit on my SO in front of the kids (My SO politely turned her down each time). She has also attempted to use the kids as pawns but was thwarted due to the fact that we brought up the fact that she doesn’t have custody. (We made plans that she agreed to that one Saturday we were going to take the kids to go apple picking for Rosh Hashannah. E asked my SO for some money to buy liquor the Friday before, and when she was turned down, she said that we couldn’t have the kids for the holiday and she was going to take them. (My SO is Jewish, but E is a lutheran so Rosh Hashannah wasn’t important to her). The kids love to go apple picking so she was trying to use the kids to get her way. There are many other crappy instances that have chipped away my patience for this woman.

Things haven’t improved and our oldest daughter, now 16, refuses to go over to see E on the one day as E moved in with her mother (who is renting a house from my SO, oy!) but hasn’t bothered to move beds there. We’ve brought it up to E that her oldest daughter is slipping away from her. E immediately confronted her daughter who denied it (lied) and said that she was usually sleeping over at friends’ house and that was it. The oldest is still rarely seeing her mom (once since January) and E thinks nothing is wrong with that. E’s involvement with the children is babysitter at best. She doesn’t go to any parent-teacher conferences, she’s not involved at all in girl scouts/boy scouts, and takes a 3 hour nap in the afternoon when the kids are there, so the one day a week she seems them, she’s sleeping through most of it.

The youngest two, ages 7 and 9, still go over there. Every once in a while, the kids come home on Sunday and ask me why I hate their mom. I don’t hate their mom. I haven’t really met their mom. I never discuss their mom with my SO when the kids are around and we make sure never to say anything negative about her. Unfortunately, the question is being fed to the kids from their mom. So, I have explained over and over that I don’t hate their mom and I have no reason to (lie).

Ugh.

This is the 4th 4th of July that my SO and I have been together. Every year, we’ve taken the kids to a water park, hit a drive-in restaurant, and then go for fireworks on the Mississippi River. This, however, is the first time that the 4th has fallen on a Saturday. The kids said that they really wanna go to the waterpark, so my SO called E and asked if it was OK with her if we could take the kids that day. She said that she had no plans so it was good with her. Since she lives nearby the fireworks, my SO asked if she wanted us to drop off the kids after the fireworks or keep them for the rest of the weekend. E then asked my SO if she could come with to the show. My SO said that he’ll check with me and get back to her.

Ugh again.

I don’t like this woman. I worry that this is a bit of Pandora’s box and that if we have her come with this time, she’ll want to be invited to more things. Of course, that’s just me. I worry that my dislike of her is also denying the children of making memories with their mother. So I feel like I’m being a jackass by saying no. My SO is on the fence about it personally because of the way she’s treated him over the last couple year so he’s leaving it up to me to decide.

So, should she come with us or not? Please don’t pull punches. If I’m being an immature brat about this, please let me know.

2

The beard does not sound like a very nice person (to put it mildly) and is probably a bad influence on the kids. The first time I found out that she was teaching the kids that daddy is “a faggot”, I would be doing everything in my power to limit her access to them. You don’t hate her, but you do dislike her, so if I were you I’d keep contact with her to a minimum. Shared activities wouldn’t be encouraged - she has her time with the kids, you have yours. I don’t think you’re being childish.

3

If it’s supposed to be her delegated time with the kids, you have to suck it up and let her come. It’s not something you have to do when it’s not her delegated time with the kids, and you don’t have to agree to do anything more with her when she does have the kids. I totally understand your feelings, but if you’re going to want to keep the kids during the time she has visitation, then you’re at her mercy.

She would also try to poison the kids even more against you if you told her no. The older they get, the more they will understand who their mother is, and the more they will appreciate that you let them figure it out on their own.

4

To what extent is she an active substance abuser, and to what extent has this been medically evaluated and factored into the custody arrangements?

5

It goes in waves. We found out after the fact that she was using crack after the divorce. After the money ran out, she turned to drinking instead (subsidized by thrice doing one of those auto title loans and her father bailing her out twice…but not the third time, the car was repo’ed after that). She went to rehab twice and has been clean for the most part. I see a downswing coming because she just lost her job which has lead her to drinking in the past. The first time she went into rehab, we got a call from her mom the night before the kids were supposed to go over there and she went full patient for 2 weeks. The second time she went in for 6 weeks.

As for custody, she agreed to give my SO full physical custody during the divorce for a payout so her chemical use wasn’t a factor (nor was it a problem back then). She agreed to “reasonable visitation” which is how the divorce decree states it. Of course, reasonable is open to interpretation I would guess.

6

I know it won’t be easy, but if I were you, I would invite her and be so nice and syrupy sweet she will get diabetes. What have you got to lose? It might be kind of fun to watch her squirm as you are so kind and friendly.
Besides, she sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen. Obviously the kids know the story and her tagging along is not going to endear her to anyone.
Plus - who knows? Maybe she will bail at the last minute?
At any rate - say, “Sure - bring her along!”
Everyone will consider you the magnanimous host, and most likely, she will turn into the nitpicking bitch. Sounds like a win/win to me.

7

Surprisingly, I’m with Dio. It’s her time with the kids, and that will just be ammo for her to use against the kids. It’s not about you or their dad, it’s about the kids, and to be quite honest, that’s part of your relationship with this man - he has kids with this woman, so you will have to deal with this woman until the kids are grown up. That was the choice you made when you got into this relationship!

Just think of the kiddies. Eventually they will draw their own conclusion about their mom, but they are too young now - let her come and be sweetness and pie.

8

I also agree with 'mika and Dio. This also gives you a chance to demonstrate to the kids that you don’t hate their mom, if you can hold on to your temper.

9

Oh yes. You have absolutely zero reasons to like her, but every reason to make sure it’s never you who is The Evil One.

10

Wait a minute. Does the divorce decree or settlement agreement (which, if there was one, would have been incorporated into the decree) actually say visitation is every Saturday morning to Sunday afternoon or does it say “reasonable visitation”? If it does not specify in the decree (or any subsequent order) what the visitation is, then “her” time is whenever she and your SO agrees it is, “reasonable” being, yes, open to interpretation. Something to look into.

But I agree with others: if she joins you on the 4th, you be just the sweetest, most wonderful person on this earth to her, so she cannot use anything you say, do, wear, look at, whatever, against your SO if she decides later to sue for a change in custody.

I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer; I do not represent you or your SO or anyone else, anywhere else. I am probably not even licensed to practice in your state and anything stated herein is NOT legal advice, but simply information from an anonymous source on an internet message board.

11

In addition to confusing her, treating her kindly in front of the children will hopefully plant a seed of doubt in the younger ones – ‘Wait, I thought Mom said he hated her. So why’s he being so nice?’

Still, I don’t doubt that it will take all of your patience and tongue biting, and your SO should acknowledge this. It was also a bit of a jerkish move to not only put this decision on you, but to let his ex know that this is your decision. Not cool. Definitely let him know that he is not to make any additional future plans involving you, her and the kids without talking to you first. And discuss a few possible scenarios for the night (Is she taking the kids afterwards? What if she wants you all to go back to her place for a night cap? What if she starts insulting you in front of the children? Do you have an exit plan, a definite time you’re going home?)

Who knows, maybe she will take a long nap and miss the whole thing!

12

I find it interesting that this decision is turning out to be about you and that would be the concern I would have about the future, considerably more so than any concern that she might in future try to horn in on your family time.

To the immediate problem, since I gather she is not coming along for the whole day but only for the last bit, and since she will presumably be taking the kids with her directly afterwards rather than having you dropping them off, this looks like a no-brainer to me – I expect you will also be sharing the fireworks display with any number of other unpleasant people whom you do not know at all and would rather not. I expect you can manage it so that you have no opportunity to be either nice or not-nice to her, unless you are going to take in the fireworks display from the deck of a boat or something.

13

Let her come along, be as civil as you can.

There will be other occasions where this is required. High school graduations and open houses. Weddings. Get good at sucking it up.

Suck it up. She isn’t a nice person - but she is their mother. And as the kids get older they will learn that she isn’t a nice person - but she is their mother - and they can make their own decisions about how much time they want to spend with her.

For now though, they are young enough that you need to be a grown up.

14

I think you’re just being human, not immature; a brat wouldn’t care enough to post for advice.

Dangerosa’s post is bang on.

15

The divorce decree states “reasonable visitation” with no definition of the days, duration, etc.

It sounds like the consensus is to suck it up, have her come with and be friendly to her. Fine. I’ll do it, but I’m not going to like it. pout. :wink:

16

Think of it as supervising part of her visitation.

I know it’s hard to take the high road, though. The high road blows. It takes forever and the scenery is boring, but it will get you home safe, while the low road always leads to wrecks.

I’m sure I could flesh this metaphor out even more. There must be a way to work rest stops or state troopers into it, but I think I’ll just leave well enough alone.

17

Think of it this way - it’ll be great fodder for a follow-up Pit thread. I’ll be waiting for it! :slight_smile:

18

I agree with Dio and 'Mika and the rest, but would add this qualifier:

These aren’t your kids, they are your SO’s kids and the crazy ex’s kids. I don’t know why you would allow your SO to put on your the responsibility (blame) for making the decision as to whether his ex-wife comes along on an outing with you and his kids. If he’s on the fence tell him to hop the hell off it and make the decision, with the caveat that you will support him – and be a good sport about it – either way.

She is doing her level best to make you the Wicked Stepfather, and you know it. There’s no reason you should give her more ammunition by taking responsibility for making decisions that are likely to piss her off and make you look bad if you don’t let her have her way.

Even if, between the two of you, your SO allows or requests that you make the decision, IMO he should still take responsibility for the decision and present it as his own to her and the kids. She is his problem. He should no be conflict avoidant by making her yours, and that’s what I think I detect in him having told her he would “check with you and get back to her” and telling you he’ll “leave it up to you.”

19

Wonderful point! My father did this to my mother for years with HIS mother. He didn’t want to go to dinner with her, but she had to make the phone call. For years he got to be the darling son and my mother was cast as the evil daughter in law. My dad wasn’t doing it to be mean, he just is one of those people who avoids conflict.

20

Update: Well, after my SO told her that we’d be happy that she would come with, she said “nevermind, I’m just going to take the kids myself that day”.