Mods, I hope this is okay. If not, please just warn me, not ban me!
crazyjoe read your thread, Skald, and wanted to say something. Unfortunately his membership has expired (as he mentions) and wanted to give advice. He asked me to post it for him. I would have emailed you instead, but it’s not listed for me to do so.
Skald the Rhymer, men tend to be problem solvers when situations are brought to their attention. Which is why your wife didn’t bring this to your attention. She know’s you’d want to fix it or advise her how to fix it. Put the shoe on the other foot. If you worked for an asshole would you want your wife to fix it? Your support should be passive as in, “honey, I support you in whatever you decide to do”. You can explain your feelings to her so she knows it’s the nature of men to want to protect their mate. Yah, we’re a bunch of club swinging cave men.
But as thirdwarning so accurately pointed out, what exactly are you going to do about it? Go to your wife’s place of employment and wait outside for the jerk to come out, and then give him a stern talking-to and/or beat him up? Report him to HR on behalf of your wife? If my husband went to my work and had a talk with someone harassing me or beat them up, our next step would be marriage counselling to find out what the hell is wrong with him - adults just don’t do that. We don’t live in a Jerry Springer show.
That said, I do understand what a bunch of y’all are saying - I have a responsibility to not let myself get hurt too much, too, for my own sake as well as my husband’s, and that’s where Skald’s wife is apparently falling down.
And again, I personally would have made my extreme displeasure at his behavior known to both him and HR sometime around “double entendres and risque emails”, but that doesn’t change the fact that double entendres and risque emails are an annoyance, that a big girl knows full well how to handle. I simply assume that Skald’s wife is a big girl. Invasion of personal space in *any * way is a more serious problem, and again, one I personally wouldn’t stand for, but I’m willing to trust Skald’s wife to handle her own problems.
As opposed to us silly women, who just aren’t smart enough to know when we need saving? Who said it wasn’t a real problem? All I said was that it’s HER problem.
I submit that any *person * who loves their spouse would find this a difficult situation to be in. Reign in your testosterone long enough to consider that this isn’t about the gender of the people involved, it’s about respecting your spouse enough to trust his or her assessment of the situation, and competence to handle it.
I’ll ask again, if your wife took it upon herself to intrude into your professional life, how would you feel about that? I’m guessing belittled, insulted, and generally disrespected.
I find this discussion both fascinating and a bit bizzarre. I never got the feeling that Skald was considering acting on his wife’s behalf, yet that became the default assumption and the center of debate in the thread. Ultimately his wife will have to be responsible for any action she takes in dealing with her employer. The problem is her unwillingness to talk about the problem, or take any action that might make things better.
This is where I find Diana’s argument so frustrating. She has changed the terms of the debate by bypassing the facts. Skald isn’t going to his wife’s workplace, he isn’t doing anything on her behalf except to attempt to advise and support her. The fact that she refuses to listen to that advice and wants to wallow in her misery instead is a real problem. I think I would be most upset if she refused to even document this person’s behavior. Imagine a few months down the road when she finally stands up for herself and no one believes her because she misremembers a couple of things that his lawyer picks apart and she has no other evidence to back her claim.
We don’t live in a Jerry Springer show, we also don’t live in a world where relationships maintain their viability if one partner determines unilaterally that they are tacitly agreeable to be sexually harassed in order to to keep a job.
The “What are you going to do?” option is to take action to stop the harassment, or leave that place of employment. Unless you are literally going to miss your next meal without that job, an SO deciding they would rather be sexually harassed and terrorized than look for a new job is not (IMO) a situation where a relationship is going to maintain it’s long term viability, unless the husband is into the notion of having his wife abused and intimidated by other men in her workplace.
If you are a married women being sexually harassed at work, and choose to relate this information to your husband, the “I’m just going to hunker down and take it, but you can comfort me when I cry about it” option is off the table as soon as you relate this information to him. Some women seem to think that they can relate a situation like this to their husband, and he’s supposed to act like their girlfriend.
Actually, the facts are that he just found out, and he doesn’t know yet what she’s going to do.
For the record, I’ve never assumed that **Skald ** intended to do any of the incredibly silly things he’s been advised to do in this thread. My arguments are against the silly things, not Skald.
But it’s perfectly okay for her to let her professional life have a negative impact on her marriage?
Diana, you’ve mentioned above you’re a happily single lady. I presume your perspective is coming from your independence, your attitude that no one is going to fight your battles for you. And that is admirable. But married people are a unit, and when one person is in trouble, the other person is too. And it must be incredibly frustrating to see the person you love in trouble and know they’re unwilling (so far) to do anything about it or let you help them.
I agree with you. If my husband worked in a place where a woman was regularly inappropriate with him in a sexual way, and he seemed upset but refused to do anything, I would become upset too. I would very much want him to take action against the woman, to end the harassment. But if he refused to do so, what could I really do? I could confront the woman myself, but that would make me look like a psycho harridan, no? He’s a grown man. I would, I feel, be entering into the territory of inappropriate myself, and I’d make my husband look like a wimp who sends his wife in to handle his problems. I don’t think reversing the genders affects this negative impression any. Skald’s wife would look weak and pathetic if Skald stepped in (and he seems to know this).
So, what would I realistically be able to do? I really don’t know. And I ask you, astro, what you would do that wouldn’t make you look like the psycho overprotective husband of a passive wife? All you can do is extert as much pressure on your spouse as you reasonably can to get him/her to do it himself. I don’t see any other option that doesn’t enter the realm of CrazyTown.
Is it different for a man who is sexually harassed at work? If I told my husband about an equivalent situation, I’d want him to psyche me up to handle it myself, tell me it’s going work out OK, etc. A little comfort, a little motivation, a little support, some venting, which for me would result in action probably immediately afterward.
Is it possible, Skald, that you and your wife could have a big convo about this wherein you can convince her to deal with it?
Obviously, that would be ideal. The sense I get quite clearly, though, is that this has been taking place for quite some time, and she hasn’t been able to (or hasn’t wanted to) deal with it on her own.
Also, what ivy said.
Hi, I’m late to the party, and I wanted to say something. It could be totally off, but whatever.
I’m getting the vibe from the OP and the wife’s way of ‘‘handling’’ things that she has some kind of previous history of being sexually violated in some way. If she has some kind of trauma about this, I think there’s a really good chance she’s not sticking up for herself out of fear and even shame.
I think the idea that it’s not okay for you, Skald, to intervene, is wrong. I think it’s wrong because the marriage affects you, this guy’s jackassery affects your marriage, and even if you are doing nothing for her, you have a right to do it for your own interests–even if your own interests include your wife not getting hurt on a regular basis by some asshole who finds her easy to victimize.
I think especially if she has some kind of underlying history making this difficult for her, her own perceptions about what’s right or how she should deal with it could be warped. Call it infantalizing, call it whatever the fuck you want. But a few months ago I had a guy coming into my apartment making moves on me and I didn’t feel, deep down, safe enough to say ‘‘no.’’ It’s like that part of me is broken, for whatever reason. I realize that’s my problem and I need to grow up, whatever–but in that moment I just wanted out and didn’t see an escape.
So I posted for advice on this board. And almost every single person responding on this very board said, ironically enough, ‘‘You need to get your husband on that shit.’’ And I did. And it worked. He didn’t break the guy’s nose, he just walked over there and said, ‘‘I know what you’re trying to do and it’s not cool. Don’t come over again or I’ll call the police.’’ I’ve never seen him since.
And I’m not saying you should do anything without discussing it with your wife first, or that you should be acting like her parent instead of her husband. But sitting down with her and saying, ‘‘Look, you’re wrong about this, and even if you aren’t, it’s hurting me to watch you go through it, therefore I must do something if you won’t. Now let’s figure out what that something is going to be.’’
I think that’s totally okay. It’s your life too, and right now that sleazeball is hurting someone you love.
The OP is fucked no matter what. He can interfere and infantilize his wife and go against her explicitly-stated wishes, or he can stand by and do nothing except listen and be understanding, which is going to become impossible at some point in the near future.
The truth is, nothing Skald does will make much difference until his wife starts defending herself. Take the most irrational, illogical, or impractical solutions you can think of and have Skald do them all, but none of it will amount to anything until she grows a spine. Skald can’t see this through to any satisfying solution without her stepping up. If all she is able to do is sit there and take it, then Skald doesn’t have much choice but to sit there and take it too.
Whatever it is that is keeping her from standing up for herself, she needs to deal with it now, because it is no longer affecting just her anymore. It’s affecting you and your marriage. It is not fair of her to tell you what is going on and do nothing to stop it and then expect you to do nothing except play Supportive Husband.
I guess I’m really shocked that anyone thinks a spouse should enter a professional workplace and address a workplace issue that their spouse is too fucked up to deal with. I can’t imagine how that would go well for the abused partner. The HR department would likely tell the husband to go home and mind his own business, right? The wife would look really bad, and it would likely compound her humiliation. She might also be forced to deal with the situation right then, in a way she’s not ready for that makes it worse for her.
I agree it’s very hard to watch your spouse suffer when you can’t do anything, but this is a workplace issue and should be handled in the workplace by the employee, not the spouse. There are mechanisms in place for dealing with these things, and if those don’t work? Sue. Quit. Something. One would think that, if Skald tells his wife that it is simply unacceptable for his wife to put up with this, she’ll understand that something needs to be done. I cannot believe that she is incapable of dealing with this in any way.
Now if this asshole called her at home, or came to her house, then her husband could intervene (answer the phone/door) because it’s his house too and it has now stepped out of the workplace into the realm of stalking. But I’d also call the police at that point.
This is getting really strange. Unless I am missing something I don’t think a single person has advocated that position, yet that is what everyone is arguing against. I would tell my wife that letting this situation destroy her mental health while she does nothng to stand up for herself is a lousy solution. I would be there to help in any way possible, but not confronting this issue isn’t a solution. I don’t think advocating for my spouse to stand up for herself and take steps to keep our marriage emotionally healthy is infantalizing.
In short if she says her solution is to say nothing and hope it gets better then I am going to do anything I can to help her come up with a better solution because that isn’t going to work and isn’t going to make anyone happy.
I see numerous people who say the husband should intervene and do something. No one past the the Mod intervention has advocated violence, and no one will get specific, but astro and olives are certainly saying the husband should do something more than just talk to his wife. What form would this intervention take? No one will say. But I think anything beyond talking to her is out of line.
If I’m reading this wrong then I apologize.
I admit I only skimmed from halfway down the 2nd page so someone may have already brought this up…
Skald, isn’t this the same girl who when you were in the middle of asking another woman out came up to you and made loud, inappropriate comments about you trying to get into both of their pants? And, effectively blocked your attempts to ask this other woman out? (among other brazen things which I’m not about to start looking for right now…) This is the same woman, right?
My point being (yes, I do have one) you did not marry some shy, retiring, demure little girl. You married a chick with a set of big brass ones.
Why, seemingly out of nowhere, is she reduced to this “crying in the car, can’t tell my husband, let people take advantage of me” girl? It seems wildly out of character for her. From the bits and pieces I’ve picked up from you about her I’d expect her to tell him to fuck off and leave her alone (or something similar).
I think you should try to get to the bottom of that – that may shed some light on why she won’t take action and won’t accept your help or advice. If she won’t speak to you about it maybe a therapist for a session or two? It just seems like she’s got to get something off her chest before she can work up the gumption to deal with this jackass.
You both have my sympathies - I’ve been there and it sucks.
I’ve been trying to put myself in thewife’s shoes. What would I do, and what would I want my husband to do, if something nasty like that happened to me? The first thing that comes to my mind is that my husband would be one of, if not *the * first person I’d tell. We share stuff, and we are there to help each other. Why would I not talk to him first, if not for advice, then at least for comfort and sympathy?
I don’t know you or your wife, obviously, or anything about your relationship besides what you’ve said here. Perhaps you might think about why she did not share this with you before you found out from a third party. Perhaps you should sit down with her and ask her that question, kindly and with no accusations or animosity. Ask her if there is something about the way you treat her, or about your relationship, or about you yourself that caused her to not want to tell you about something so distressing that it frequently leads her to tears.
If it were not this situation, but some other distressing event, would she tell you? How about if she got bad news at a medical checkup? If she had gotten arrested for something she didn’t do? If she’d had a car accident that wasn’t her fault? Would she tell you if her purse was stolen? If the answer to those is yes, why was she reluctant to tell you about this creep at work?
The two of you, or the two of you plus a trusted third party might want to use this as a starting point for understanding each other better and improving your relationship.
I agree, this thread is both bizarre and interesting just because it has more miscommunication, more selective listening, and more false assumptions of motivations than any thread I have read recently (and unfortunately Diana, you seem to be in the center of it).
I almost feel like I need to do a primer of sorts to help everyone speak the same language and have the ability to communicate! Ex: “I think that the husband should do something” DOES NOT mean that he should treat her like a child, that he should be paternal, that he has too much testosterone, that he should go down to her office and do it himself, that he should tell her exactly what to do, that he should physically intervene, ect. ect. That statement simply means “I think that the husband should do something.”
At the very bottom of every negative work situation, you have to ask yourself whether or not being fired would be worse than maintaining the same situation. If the answer is no, meaning that being fired would be better than having to live with the situation continuing, then you have nothing to lose by seeking to put an end to it, no matter what the other party might say, do or threaten. Because the “worst” that can happen is an end to the painful situation and an opportunity to find something better.
I went through this on my last job. My new supervisor was such a lying piece of shit that just before a big meeting with him, I went out and bought a $35 digital voice recorder. After checking to make sure that yes, doing so is legal and admissible in court. In the end, management closed ranks, declared ME to be the liar, and fired me. I have a 69 minute recording of him saying all the things he later declared to upper management that he’d never said at all. But I’m still unemployed.
That being said, I wear my termination like a badge of honor. I’m happy to have been fired by people (all retired police officers) who have no personal integrity, because I could not continue to work for people I no longer trusted or respected. I’m seriously happy that I no longer have to work in that toilet of an environment.
The prospect of being fired can seem like the end of the world. It isn’t.
Skald’s wife is going through something far more difficult and personally horrific than what I went through. On the other hand, if she had the equivalent recorded information that I had on my boss, she could sue that company to the end of time. Sexual Harassment is not an innocent office past-time. It is violation.
Like Mesquite-oh says, there’s far too many indignant false assumptions in the thread on the part of those who think sympathy is more valuable than action. Sympathy doesn’t get the washing up done.
Given the lying sociopath my ex-wife was, there would be no way that I could trust that she wasn’t making the whole thing up to gain sympathy. That’s the way she worked. (She routinely told me lies about other people being mean to her or saying bad things about me in order to create a mutually sympathetic “us against them” environment.) But that’s my history.
If I was married to a more normal person, there would be no way that I could stand back and do nothing. No, that doesn’t mean violence, it doesn’t mean marching into the company, it doesn’t mean humiliating her in any way. It means working to find solutions to the problem, it means communicating with my wife about what is happening, how she feels about it, why she is hellbent on handling it herself, why she seems to be frozen with fear and incapable of taking action. It means supporting her, helping her to gain the strength and insight to take constructive action. It might mean marriage counselling or exploring the idea that she might use some personal therapy. It might mean helping her plan a strategy to gain a chain of evidence without being obvious about it. It might mean helping her look for another job. At a bit more direct, it might involve me coming to see her at work, not for any particular purpose other than BEING SEEN.
In short, there are a great many things that Skald can do without showing up at the office guns blazing, without causing injury to his wife. Assuming otherwise only shows the limitations and mentality of the one making the assumptions.
But seriously, what else can he do? I’m trying to figure that myself, and I just don’t see many options beyond what we’ve discussed already. I guess he could call the harassing jerk at work and tell him to quit harassing his wife. He could book his wife into conflict resolution courses, or therapy to help her deal with whatever issue this is, but putting more pressure on his wife just makes a bad situation worse for her - now is she not only dealing with a jerk at work, but she has her husband giving her stress at home, too.
When people are saying Skald should definitely do something, I’m having a hard time imagining what that could be that wouldn’t damage his relationship with his wife and would be even a little effective. This simply isn’t his battle to fight, frustrating as that is. He does have the choice of leaving his wife over it, as some people seem to be indicating they would, but that seems like a really jerk thing to do to me - your wife is having a problem at work that she isn’t dealing with the way you’d like, so your solution is to leave her? That’s not very “for better or worse.”