Tight ends catch passes, yes, but they also block. This particular TE, while he has good receiving skills, drew rave reviews for his elite blocking.
I honestly think that after taking a lot of criticism for being a publicity whore, and after purging all the “personalities” in the offseason, Jones was trying to do some kind of ostentatiously humble draft. “Look, we’re not seduced by the lure of big names! We’re drafting for quality depth! We’re so unglamorous, we’re thinking about special teams!”
You don’t get drafted in the first round unless you do both. Yes, he’s a great run blocker; he’ll also catch 50 balls.
I like the Pettigrew pick, and Williams, too – I just think they also needed a couple o-linemen. They could have gone all offense, IMO.
The draft could have been twice as long and the Lion’s wouldn’t have been able to address all their needs. their needs on defense are legion as well. I’m just glad they didn’t listen to the fans, who overate both Maualuga and the MLB position in general, when its clear that safety has passed it by as the leader of the defense.
I thought they did very well too. They took a couple players who were falling below their “conventional wisdom” spots (Rey I’mnotspellinghislastname, Michael Johnson), and took a chance of Andre Smith (I’m leery of the guy, but I loved his comparison of his QB to his mother, and nobody hits his mother). They really could have hit a home run in their first three picks of this draft. I’m not sold on Johnson as a NFL DE, but I really like Luigs (great value too). I’m not sure any of the later picks are going to develop, though they were at positions of need. Good, possibly great draft.
So amazing that you forgot his last name? Chase Coffman. His Dad was a Packer.
I don’t think stats are the way to go. I think a better way to go would be simply to ask, in December of 2011 (end of their 3rd year), which QB you’d rather have for a game at that moment.
If we can’t agree, we’ll ask for opinions from an objective source of your choice. I’d prefer one of the Football Outsiders experts, but we can submit our case to any other expert you choose, or even poll the SDMB or He Hate Me league members.
Remember the conditions in the OP:
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The whole thing is barring serious injury on White’s part. If he blows an ACL, the bet’s off.
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As I said in the OP, White will be one of the two best QBs. Stafford OR Sanchez OR Freeman might be better, but not any 2 of them. I’d prefer to keep it among these 4 … but my OP did say “in the draft,” so if you wanna hold me to that I’ll run the risk of Stephen McGee being the next Tom Brady.
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The best is about who will be best after 3 seasons: on a neutral field with neutral teams and with the ability to run any NFL system you choose, which QB would you most want. Yet-untapped potential, at that point, means zero.
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Any value White has as a WR/RB/KR is irrelevant. Value he adds by running from the QB position does count, and the ability to run the wildcat does count; however, one can’t imagine “if the Dolphins ran the wildcat 35 times a game …” (unless they actually are running it something like that often).
You pick the stakes. Cash is fine ($50?), or perhaps a quality bottle of spirits.
I have a feeling teams are going to discover that the wildcat offense is now completely worthless now that defenses have had a year to gameplan for it.
If they run the same plays as last year, yes.
Whoops! Call me forgetful in the name of being giddy!
First and foremost I need to keep reminding myself that this draft class includes Jay Cutler, who would easily have been the BPA and 1st overall pick all things being equal. Considering the Bears lacked a Day One pick and that the 49ers and Seahawks turned their second rounder into a 2010 first rounder, which the Bears also gave for Cutler, you could make a case that the Bears gave their 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks for Cutler. That’s a steep, but fair, price for a franchise QB. My frustration level is off the charts with this draft, but if I keep reminding myself they landed a franchise QB and ultimately improved the team in the long run regardless of what we get from these other players it calms my anger.
Lets look at who we added today:
Jarron Gilbert, DT, San Jose State (3rd round, 4th pick - #68 overall)
I really like this player and I think he was the BPA at that point. His physical skills are simply impressive and the highlight videos out there, aside from the “pool jump” and 635lb squat, show him getting off the ball incredibly fast and putting OGs on their backs. He dominated some players in this draft at the Shrine Game. He’s incredibly strong and fast and at 6’5" tall and only 288 lbs he can stand to add perhaps 40 pounds of bulk and maintain most of his quickness. His father was an NFL player which I always appreciate from a work ethic and football intelligence standpoint.
The only catch is that he plays the same position as Tommie Harris and is a pure 1-gap DT. You can never have too many guys like that and they are really hard to find in the draft, but if Gilbert gets a ton of playing time right away it’ll probably be because Harris still hasn’t snapped out of his funk. As a part of a rotation or if Marinelli and Lovie find ways to get both he and Harris on the field together in passing situations he could be a great addition. But…we probably had much more pressing needs at other positions.
Juaquin Iglesias, WR, Oklahoma (3rd round, 35th pick - #99 overall)
I hate this player. The Bears clearly needed a WR who can play right away, this is no secret and I and everyone else have been screaming about it for months. More importantly they needed the right kind of receiver. They need a guy who can be a force in the Red Zone. They need a guy who can beat a physical press coverage. They need a guy with reliable hands and size to survive over the middle. Iglesias has good hands, like 80% of WRs in this draft, and that’s it. He’s not big, he’s not fast, he’s not particularly productive. He played in a conference that defended the pass as well as my local co-ed rec league. I just can’t envision a scenario where this guy makes a difference on the field, he has back-up written all over him, and on a team as talent poor as the Bears at the position that’s pretty sad.
I wish I could say that there were other options on the board at that time, but there weren’t. I don’t know if the Bears wanted this guy or if they simply had to settle for him. There were much better WRs and Safeties coming off the board in the picks before them and there wasn’t a guy left that I clearly preferred. It was just a bad position to be in and since it was a compensatory selection they couldn’t trade it to move up and get a guy like Barden or Turner.
Henry Melton, DE, Texas (4th round, 5th pick - #105 overall)
This is a baffling pick. The guy is a converted RB and watching his highlight videos he appears to be a hell of a lot better runner than a pass rusher. I like his size/speed ratio but he uses his hands poorly, has short arms and gets stoned at the line by bigger tackles with good technique. This guy needs a ton of work to learn the position and the Bears just don’t have the time to develop him.
I understand that we needed to do something about the DE position with all 3 of our current rotation’s contracts ending next year and our pass rush going limp last season, but Melton? At the top of the 4th? Sidbury would have been a much better choice at this point and Melton probably could have been gotten a couple rounds later. Will Davis also would have been a decent fall back if they missed out on him. I have to assume that this is another example of Lovie’s idiotic Texas bias screwing us over. This is a fantastically bad draft for 4-3 DEs so they should have just waited on the position and attacked it next year.
D.J. Moore CB, Vanderbilt (4th round, 19th pick - #119 overall)
I like this guys talent, I worry about his size and the rationale for drafting him. I’m slowly talking myself into this pick though, just about every draftnik is praising the selection as a steal. I’m a little more skeptical considering his small size and the fact that so many other teams in need of a CB passed on him, but the Bears do know how to draft cornerbacks. We don’t play a lot of press coverage or bump and run so his size will be somewhat protected and the Tampa 2 help should guard against the deep jump ball. In the end, my biggest question is if there was a prospect who could play FS available here. Moore would have to add considerable strength to have a chance at that and his height might preclude it completely.
From a need standpoint this is similar to the Gilbert pick. We’ve got players at CB but it’s a position that is generally considered a constant need and a challenge to help in free agency, so getting players in the draft before you need them is wise. Vasher’s stock has fallen and Peanut Tillman is getting older and has had injury troubles. Danieal Manning might be stealing Vasher’s spot in camp this year and Moore is probably penciled in as a Nickelback and Tillman’s future replacement. Again, if Moore is getting a ton of playing time it means that either Vasher, Tillman or Manning had failed considerably.
Johnny Knox, WR. Abilene Christian (5th round, 4th pick - #140 overall)
Knox is a decent value here and was highly rated following his workouts. There’s plenty of concern that he’s a workout warrior and his level of competition was sub-par to say the least. He’s got elite speed and outstanding hands, he tracks the ball well and shows terrific adjustments to the ball in flight. He also has returned punts and kicks which might be of use if Hester continues to struggle at balancing return and receiving duties. His size and durability are worrisome and he won’t give much help blocking, he could struggle to release against the press.
This pick is exactly like the Gilbert and Moore picks. A guy with talent and upside who simply plays a position where we don’t immediately need him. I’m a big fan of speed on offense, something the Bears have had a dearth of for as long as I can remember, and Knox has that in spades. He projects as a slot/flanker and that’s precisely where Devin Hester fits. With Hester’s tendency to get banged up and still uncertain ceiling as a deep threat having a fall-back is wise, but it’s frustrating as hell to see the Bears drafting back-ups for our best players as opposed to drafting potential starters as weak positions. Practically I can’t see any way Hester and Knox see the field at the same time so if Knox gets playing time that means he’s replacing Hester…see a trend here?
Marcus Freeman, OLB, Ohio State (5th round, 18th pick - #154 overall)
An OLB prospect who played the Will and Sam positions on a very good OSU defense. He’s got prototypical speed but needs to add a little bulk to survive in a 4-3 scheme. He is a reliable tackler and gets into coverage fairly well. He was the most important cog in the #1 Buckeye defense according to his coaching staff and his character and smarts are first rate. He can provide depth at multiple LB positions, something the Bears are in need of. Many people had him projected in the late 2nd or early 3rd rounds so getting him in the 5th seems like a steal; though that cuts both ways raising the question of why he slid.
Freeman was at his best playing on the weak side in college which is where Lance Briggs is entrenched. Prior to the draft he was repeatedly compared to Briggs because of his similar size, speed and skills. If we got a player who develops as well as Briggs did that’s fantastic, but considering Briggs is signed to a long, pricey deal how does Freeman get his way on the field? Perhaps he’ll win a spot on the strong side where we have a competition but I’m not sure Freeman has the size and strength for that position (similar to Hillenmeyer ironically) or the ability to shed blockers. Again, we might have landed an elite back-up and future starter but not where we needed him.
Al Afalava, S, Oregon State (6th round, 17th pick - #190 overall)
Finally the Bears address the dismal situation at Safety and they get a…Strong Safety. Wonderful. Afalava has a nice combination of size, power and ball skills. He gives a little on the speed front but in a Tampa 2 he shouldn’t be asked to run with WRs too often. He has a reputation as a big hitter but people seem to be overlooking the fact that his tackling skills suck. He lowers his head and doesn’t break down, he tries to blow players up and strip the ball before wrapping and getting the carrier to the ground. Bigger athletic NFL players will bounce off him or juke him if he doesn’t learn to focus on tackling as opposed to hitting.
The Bears are in desperate need of a FS unless you think Josh Bullocks, a guy released by the worst pass defense in football and star of several mocking highlight reels on YouTube, can solidify the position. They supposedly expect Afalava to move into the position eventually but he doesn’t appear to have the coverage skills needed. His college experience and skills make him a fit at SS where we already have Payne and Steltz, two guys who also seem to think tackling and plowing into things are the same thing. If I have to watch another guy give up a big play trying to get on Jacked Up! I’m going to throw something at my TV. They are all young and have athletic ability. Maybe between the 3 of them we can field one reliable, tackling SS this year but they all will need some coaching up from Lovie.
Lance Louis, OG, San Diego State (7th round, 37th pick - #246 overall)
This guy is a really cool prospect on paper. He played Guard, Tackle and Tight End and even projects as a goalline Fullback. He’s 300+ pounds but still ran a 4.68 40 and managed an impressive 30 reps on the bench. I love his physical make-up and his potential to play multiple positions. He needs to develop more skills and the Bears have to make up their minds on what they want him to do.
Early talk has Lovie expecting to use him primarily as a TE. That’s easily the Bears deepest position with Clark, Olsen and Kellen Davis but they are all pass catchers and not in-line blockers. So adding Louis as a TE for use on running downs and short yardage is a pretty solid proposition and his experience as a OL should indicate elite blocking ability as a TE. I’m sure that if the Bears OGs suffer injuries or flame out badly Louis could be pressed into service and it’s nice to have that kind of flexibility. Generally I like the pick but it means that Davis, who showed some real positive things in camp and preseason last year, will probably end up being cut which is a waste. I don’t think the Bears are likely to carry 4 TEs and I don’t think Davis has the speed to transition into that tall rangy WR we desperately need.
Derek Kinder, WR, Pittsburgh (7th round, 42nd pick - #251 overall)
The Bears are hoping they found a steal here. He was a 2006 Biletnikoff semi-finalist as a Junior prior to a ACL injury. He doesn’t seem to have fully regained his speed but he has great hands and runs good routes. Apparently he was impressive at the Pitt Pro Day. His size is sub-par and you have to wonder why his red-shirt Senior season was a disappointment.
He is another 6-foot WR with marginal speed. I suppose he’ll press Earl Bennett and Iglesias in camp and in the 7th round you don’t have high expectations but even if the guy turns out to be a steak his ceiling isn’t very high. If he makes the roster it means the other players failed miserably.
Well, I definitely thought that Higgins was close to Maclin’s mold, which is why I didn’t feel bad about passing on Maclin. I would’ve preferred Crabtree though. You want guys who can CATCH first and run second, not the other way around. I think it’ll be apparent fairly quickly whether Heyward-Bey is a good pick or another Troy Williamson.
I’m not too upset about the Mike Mitchell pick, in the end. Seems like a good kid with a good head on his shoulders, hits like a beast, good size. He’ll work hard, and he’s got even more motivation after all the “73rd best safety in the draft” stuff.
As far as the draft in general, I think all the quarterbacks taken in the first round will be horrible busts. Stafford has the best chance to level out as an average journeyman. I can’t understand all the love for Sanchez. The guy started one season and never really impressed during it - it’s easy to look good when you’ve got 5 minutes in the pocket to throw to guys open by 20 yards. And Freeman was a fourth-round prospect who suddenly morphed into a first-rounder when everyone saw just how weak the draft class for QBs was.
I’m not sure if Pat White will ever make it as a classic QB, but I think there’s a good chance that his career will turn out to be a more productive one (perhaps at a different position) than the three QBs taken before him.
He was a 5-technique end in college, and he’s got long arms and is blazingly fast at 290ish. I don’t know why the Bears are moving him to tackle; he’s not a three-down player anyway.
That was exactly my thought on Crabtree- with a quarterback as scattershot as Russell, you want the guy that will catch anything thrown within five yards, and that’s Crabtree.
Heyward-Bey is the opposite- he’ll catch 40% of the passes thrown his way, but even if he turns a quarter of those into touchdowns, I can’t see him scoring more than 6 times a year… and no wideout turns a quarter of his catches into touchdowns.
Mitchell doesn’t seem like a bad guy, or anything; it’s just that there’s absolutely no reason to draft him in round 2 when he was still going to be there in Round 5. Drafting Heyward-Bey 20 picks early is one thing, but drafting Mitchell 120 spots early is another.
This really doesn’t sound like a “Pat White is a good quarterback” bet, but rather a “every quarterback in this draft sucks” bet. Maybe it’s just me, but if you think Pat White is a NFL caliber quarterback, lets bet that.
But, in the interest of the challenge, how about this. On Tuesday, December 20th, we figure out, either by you or me agreeing, or by poll, the answer to the question: “which QB of the 2009 draft class, would you rather have for a game, if healthy, at that moment.” If Pat White finishes number one or two, you win. If not, I win. That way, I’m covered if Sanchez or Stafford is injured (even temporarily). I also get the undrafted free agents, and the “Pat White sucks, BUT he sucks a little bit less than every other person in that draft year” doesn’t count as a win for you.
I’m a fan of Jameson’s and Bombay Sapphire. How about a nice bottle of spirits of your choice for the victor?
What if White running the Wildcat results in a complete paradigm shift in the NFL which renders the quarterback obsolete and the QB/HB hybrid becomes the most important player on the field?
Well, they aren’t really moving him, they just play a 4-3 and don’t use a 5-technique End in their schemes. He doesn’t project as a 4-3 end playing a 7-technique or 8-technique which is what Bears DEs do most of the time. He doesn’t really have 2-gap skills and they ask one of their DTs to play a 1-gap scheme. Gilbert can be a 1-gap player as either a 5-technique or a 3-technique which is where Harris plays. Almost all 3-4 DEs transition to 1-gap DTs in a 4-3 and never a edge rusher, I’m not sure why he’d be any different. As noted the Bears have 3 guys with expiring deals on the edge and if Gilbert shows that he fits better on the edge than inside I’m sure they’ll be eager to try him out there. They’ve moved Idonije from inside to outside and Gilbert might find his way on the field that way if Harris stays on the field. They’d said that the drafting of Gilbert is intended to push Harris and make him increase his effort level so there’s not much question of where he’ll start working at the outset.
Whatever gets you through the night. The Bears gave up 2 first round draft picks, a third rounder, AND their starting QB for a quarterback with a losing record. I know you and I have differed on Cutler since the moment he declared for the draft, but we will see. Whether he’s a stud or a bust or, most likely, somewhere in between, he comes at a high cost to the Bears. But he is certainly part of this “draft class”.
I like Jarron Gilbert as a project, and he’s good value in the third. He is so incredibly raw, though, it’s impossible to
say he’s just a one gap DT. Most of the stuff I’ve heard plays up his versatility, whether as a DE or a DT. He’s an athlete, and need some (OK A LOT, of training) but he was a fine pick there.
God it pains me to defend a Bear’s pick, but Iglesias, while he has a low ceiling, is a good compliment to that piece of crap you guys have the balls to pretend is a #1 WR, Devin Hester. I think he’ll be a fine #2 WR, who is able to get separation in the NFL by running good routes, using his body, and having strong hands. But, just to help you guys out, Earl Bennett will be better than Hester.
Agreed. He’s got practice squad written all over him.
He was highly thought of prior to the draft, so, according to the draftniks, he was good value when picked. I don’t like him, but maybe the Bears will.
He slid because his play isn’t up to his measurables. He should have been a dominant LB, but he never was. But, to be honest, at that point in the draft, he was well worth a pick.
The rest of the Bear’s draft was a bunch of guys I don’t like, nor do I think they’ll be NFL players. They did pick guys with some upside (Louis may be a force at TE which is stupid because you guys already have two good TEs), so if you’re patient, they may come around. I’m not seeing it though. This draft was about Jay Cutler and how he will do. And the Bears didn’t help him out much with their draft.
Good Luck. I’m sure that Cutler will be happy to see Raji and Matthews bearing down on him as they run past the Bears pathetic O Line that they, for whatever reason that I can’t figure out, refused to upgrade in the draft. Should be a fun 2009/2010 football season.
If Gilbert ends up as a 2-gap player he’ll be the lightest one since the 70s. At 288 pounds and with that kind of speed and quickness it’s safe to say he won’t be a 2-gap player. The Bears tend to do some silly and baffling things with personnel (see: Hester at the X) but trying to make him a 2-gap guy would take the cake. He works nicely because the Bears play one 1-gap DT and one 2-gap DT and if he transitions to end that works too since they often play one DE in a 6-technique where being an over sized DE is an advantage.
You want him? You can have him for Lang straight up.
I agree he’ll probably get playing time considering the steaming pile of shit we serve up as WRs but that isn’t much of a compliment. Iglesias actually would pencil in as a #3 WR, essentially a Y. We’ll probably be lining up Bennett as the X on the weak side with Hester as the Z on the strong side. We need to improve on Rasheid Davis and Iglesias should win the job there.
The Bears run a ton of 2 TE sets and Clark is getting long in the tooth, we’re definitely going to have 3 on the roster and we really don’t have a blocker at all. We struggled moving the pile all year in short yardage (and were too fucking stupid to use the QB Dive) and Louis should go a long way to helping that. The 7th round is the right time to add a specialist like that and the fact that he could end up as a Guard is pure gravy. He’s a smart pick who I think has a very good chance of making the roster.
Raji worries me a lot. The guy could be a beast, Matthews not so much at all. But, I’ll take solace in the fact the Pack defense sucked ass last year and the switch to the 3-4 almost certainly will have some bumps in the road and some players playing out of position all year.
You can have Gilmore back. We gave him a silly contract for a blocking TE, and he did jack last season.
He’s going to be great. I hate to say it and I hope he turns out to hate the cold or something because the Pack haven’t really had a guy inside that worried me since Gilbert Brown and he didn’t really threaten the QB. The new OGs on our roster had better buckle down.
I love this pick because you guys gave up a bunch in order to draft a bust who doesn’t fit your scheme or your needs. The Pac-10 was bad last year and Matthews was helped by being on a loaded defense. I assume he’ll have to play OLB in that system but I don’t think he has the speed and ball skills. Take a look at Matthews’ production and compare it to Marcus Freeman’s. It’s not even close. Heh, nice job TT.
He might play, but it seemed like he was a reach. Still, you were desperate for OL help and he might create some competition. From the film I can find on the guy he’s a giant holding penalty waiting to happen and is pretty susceptible to the bull rush. If he’s at guard he might be OK though.
This guy won’t help you much, I’m pretty sure the FB position wasn’t the issue with your running game. And how often do you line up a FB these days anyways, you guys will probably have 3 WRs on the field at all times plus a TE so this guy will be regulated to short yardage. Awfully early to be grabbing guys with this limited use.
A good pick. I’m not sure I agree that he’s a starting LT in the league and his run blocking is almost non-existent, so RT is out. He lacks leg strength and is a bit of a hip bender but compensates with good feet. A strong bull rush would hurt him on the edge. As a guard I like him a lot better.
The rest of the draft is a bunch of nothing. It looks like Wynn and Jones are just duct tape to try and bridge the transition to a 3-4, but they have 4-3 type skills making the picks very questionable.
I coveted Gilbert for the Packers because I think he’d make an awesome DE in the 3-4. He’s very raw, of course, and has poor technique, but his short area quickness and size would likely mean double teams, which open up spots for the LBs. Which is exactly what you want from a DE in the 3-4.
It’s all about needs. The Packers have an awesome receiving crew, we don’t need another #2.
So it will be just like last year, where big mistakes cost our defense plenty. Ewww, could be a long season. But if Raji has grown up and is ready to be a professional, I like our chances.