Nice guys never get the girl....

And they’d be sexually-frustrated people, to boot.

Well, I’m a nice guy.

And I got a nice girl.

Patience is a virtue…


Yer pal,
Satan

*TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Six months, three weeks, three days, 2 hours, 10 minutes and 1 second.
8283 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,035.45.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 18 hours, 15 minutes.

David B used me as a cite!*

Yeah, but you’re Satan!!

I’m lucky, I’ve got the greatest guy ever. Perfect blend of Bad Boy and Nice Guy. And a Sailor to boot! :smiley:

ROOK

I know what you’re saying. I’ve done it also but sometimes what I’ve attracted is more than I barganed for. Sometimes their actions just are not acceptable or too selfish.

Like I said, the condition rarely operates in reverse, so ‘bad girls’ often aim for ‘badder boys’. I enjoy thoughtful, caring intelligent women, but it’s not unusual for one to find an intelligent ‘bad girl’ whose brightness moves along lines away from yours. I met a bright, pretty lady who could sing almost every song on the radio, word for word, was good to talk to, loved to party, was more outgoing than me but had a young child and her basic way of child rearing was to let the kid to as she wanted.

The little beast was a monster. My opinions of child rearing were not welcome. Plus, once the lady made up her mind about something, the case was closed and she did whatever it was no matter my opinion. That was a real shame because she was, in my opinion, absolutely beautiful! I had to break up with her.

I’ve met women who love my attentions, but fail to return even 10% of them, who are sweet and funny, pretty and intelligent but whom are about as caring as a brick or thoughtless as a wall. One found no problem at all with petty shoplifting and got mad when I protested about her doing it. I met a real hot chick who liked to dress hot and was not shy about sex at all and real open minded about a whole bunch of things, but she was a member of a motorcycle gang, had friends that walked out of nightmares, and it was apparent that she was or had been more than ‘just friends’ with a few of them and loved to put on her leather biker stuff and roar off somewhere with them on weekends. That relationship did not last. In her ‘normal’ life she was a sales woman in a clothing store and one of the best. Upon meeting her, one would have no idea that she liked Harly Hawgs.

My experiences, and frustrations, tend to confirm the OP. As for why it works that way, I’m on the wrong side of things to venture a guess. Rook, I’m curious how your friend managed to remake his personality so thoroughly.

And I’m curious as to why. His interactions with the rest of the world are based solely on how likely they are to score him some tail? Then he is not a nice guy (by this I mean an actual nice guy, rather than what I suspect he actually is, a Nice Guy). I refer you to the second paragraph of Manda JO’s post above.

Personally, I don’t like assholes. I DO like nice guys. The problem, as has been mentioned earlier, is that some people confuse “nice” with “pushover”. A semi-relationship a couple years ago didn’t become anything more in part because he had no spine. He wanted to do whatever I wanted to do. I like to debate and discuss - if he saw me getting impassioned about a topic, he would quickly agree with me and change the subject. He is still a dear friend, but it didn’t go far as a relationship because I didn’t feel like we were on equal ground. He just absolutely looked to my lead in everything. This is kind of a rocky area. I want him to take my opinion seriously, of course, but similarly, I want to take his opinion seriously. And was so busy trying to be nice and accomodating, I hardly ever knew what his opinion was.

(It’s a little easier now that we aren’t trying to make a friendship become something else.)

There wouldn’t be such a huge supply of jerks if there wasn’t such a big demand for them.

::stomps off::

Sorry if this sounds cynical, but I have to agree with the earlier posts that “nice guys never get the girl.”

I was the stereotypical nice guy in high school (probably too nice), and never once had a girl look my way. It quickly became apparent to me that the girls ignored the “nice” guys and flocked around the jerks. Sorry if this ruffles some feathers, but it was my observation that the bigger a jerk the guy was, the more girls he got. And it was the same in college; the women tended to hang out with the tough guy / jerks, while the nice engineers (such as myself) saw zero action.

And I’m going to make this observation: I believe this behavior is most prevalent among American women born and raised in this country. Many women who immigrate to the U.S., particularly those from Asian cultures, do not exhibit this behavior. Perhaps we can learn something from them…

…they get the women.

Great. I hadn’t realized the solution was so simple. You tell me where “women” are, DB, and I’ll come and get them, as I apperantly haven’t met one yet.

And maybe what they look like, so I won’t miss them.

Ah, I see. Altering your exterior personality to what you think is expected/desired by a situation/someone else is morally wrong. And so is having a libedo. I’ll keep that in mind. I mean, a guy expressing a “female” weakness, like lonelyness? What a pathetic freak, no?

So, let me get this absolutly crystal clear. You suggest he continue with the same behavior pattern for the rest of his life, and nither change if it’s not getting the results he likes, nor complain that it’s not working. Becuase either one of those means he’s not “nice” anymore. Do I have it?

And yet again, I’d have to point out that I’ve never seen this behavior pattern in a “nice guy” type. EVER. And I’ve known an awful lot of them over the last two decades.

I have seen this behavior pattern among “jerk” style guys, who string along multiple women, either concurently or consecutivly. And it seems to work pretty well, based on thier goals and expectations.

Really? Where do you live? I may have to go there.

Or by “do well” do you mean “periodically hang out with, provide various types of suport for, while receving little or none of same, and constanly being told horror stories about thier relationships while offering no help on attaining same, and constantly saying ‘I can’t belive you’re still single’”

I admit, it is more efficent, spacewise . . .


“And she immediatly ‘just friends’ him . . .”

I think this is the key to the whole issue.

Most of the guys checking in here seem to fall under the “nice guy” category, as I do. I wouldn’t expect anything different from the type of people who hang out here. Back when I was in HS, I was still “nice”. Or what my perception of “nice” should be - willing to do whatever she wanted, leery of deciding on an activity for fear that she may not really want to do it, etc., so I would ask a girl what she wanted to do.

In addition to the usual dating as I got older, I made it a point to cultivate friendships (nothing sexual) with women, so I could find out all about these types of things. (Yes, guys, it sucks when some women think of us as “just a friend”, but why not put the relationship to good use and learn something?) Putting what I learned to real-life use has proven them all to be correct. Any decent woman wants a nice guy, but one who has a spine, and who won’t always say or do the things that he thinks she wants to do or hear.

From what I’ve heard, the consensus is that truly nice guys get dull after a while, and become unattractive, or just have no attraction to begin with. That’s not to say that a nice guy should mix in scumbag activity, but it’s ok to say no sometimes, or to disagree. Women enjoy spontaneity, and some degree of unpredictabilty. The trick is to bundle those aspects in with the “nice guy” package. (I’m just writing in general, and not saying this applies to anyone who has posted here!!!)

Someone - I forget who, and I think it was in the other “scumbag” thread - wondered why his sister (?) would complain that her husband-to-be was “predictable”, and that she found this “boring”. My guess is that it’s not the predictability of coming home to her every night, as was mentioned, but the fact that maybe she knows he’ll always do what she wants to do, or give her anything she wants, in an effort to be “nice”. Women who get whatever they want from a guy eventually find the guy boring, at least from what I have learned. There’s no challenge in the relationship anymore. Take a chance, try something new - if she doesn’t like it, she’ll let you know, but at least she’ll know you’re not dull. If you don’t want to do something that she suggests, say no, and don’t be shy about it! You won’t piss her off, but you’ll show her you have some backbone, and self-confidence, which is what any decent woman wants to see in her man.

Just my opinion. And yes, I know, it doesn’t address the issue of how a nice guy should get a woman interested in him, but you’re on your own there.

I went from a “nice guy” to a “not so nice guy” and I agree with what Dire Wolf has to say. My ex was an all-out super friendly nice guy. Always did what I wanted, bent over backwards to help me, etc.

The problem was, he really was a pushover. I’m not saying all nice guys are like this, but he certainly was. He waited for me to take the initiative on everything. He did what I told him to do. When problems arose, he waited for me to find the solution. He never showed me any sadness or pain or anger. See where this is going?

Women need a guy who will stand up for himself. Yes, it was nice to have him so considerate of my feelings, but damn it, sometimes what I want is flat out boneheaded and wrong. I want someone who will tell me “that’s a bad idea” even if it means we get in a big fight over it. I want someone who will pick up the ball on problems and come up with ideas of how to fix them himself. I want a guy who isn’t afraid to tell me “No” sometimes.

My relationship with my ex got flat out boring. I was tired of being with someone who would never argue with me, never disagree, always did everything I wanted. Bleah.

I’m sure there’s some nice guys out there who aren’t doormats, but in my experience, a lot of 'em are. Ya gotta stick up for what you want sometimes, right?

Jesus H. Christ. I told myself I wasn’t going to get into this argument again–Lord knows the last time (with Serlin) was enough for anyone.

The VAST majority of “nice guys” who whine about how girls they know go after assholes are making the mistake of going after “girls.” You know the type. They’re still stuck in that phase where the most attractive quality a man can have is how cool he looks to her friends and how much he can piss off her parents. These same “nice guys” often have a female friend who would be absolutely perfect for them, but unfortunately she made the mistake of having her head on relatively straight and isn’t quite able to fit into a size 6 or a DD.

I’ve been that woman. I sat there for ages watching my “nice” male friends bitch about how some leggy blonde ice bitch gave them the run-around. “Why can’t I find someone JUST LIKE YOU?” they’d say. Only, you know, she has to look really, really hot, and be a nymphomaniac. And trust me, these men who had these enormously high expectations of what their girlfriends should be were NOT the most attractive men on the planet–they’re far from it. But they’d go after the hottest chick in the room, time after time, and come to me to whine when she used them, spent all their money, and left them crying into their beer. All the while, the room would be full of normal-looking women who would be perfect for them, but they’d go after the one with the tits and the ass and the short skirt.

You’re lonely? Want to find someone you’ll be with for a lifetime? Don’t go after girls. Eventually, girls either grow up, become women, and go after the guys who respect them for who they are and not how they look, or they end up being those pathetic histrionic 45-year-old women who try to rival their teenaged daughters. Trust me, if you want someone around for a lifetime, they’re going to be 80 years old someday, and those tits and that ass will be long gone. After that, you need something left to get along with…a friendship, a mutual respect and consideration, a sense of humor, and trust. Those are the important parts. The rest are just icing, and when you finally realize not to put them first on the list, your relationships will be much more fulfilling.

While being an asshole might get you the girls now, being a nice guy will get you the woman later. And which one, ultimately, ends up better?

(each use of the second person in this post is general and not directed toward a specific poster)

Apparently not quite enough, if you’re here. . .

Yeah. Everyone knows how easy it is for a guy to start a relationship with a female friend.

Sorry. almost got that out with a straight face.

I see. Sounds nice. Again, I have never seen this behavior pattern, in 25 years, and multiple cities spread out over a couple of states.

Odd. I would think this would give you some sympathy for men in the same situation as you, with genders reveresed. Apparently not . . .

Your demension sounds fun. I’d like to go there.

Ah. When does this happen, exactly? And how do I know when it does?

Even if I accepted your argument, which I do not, your conclusion isn’t valid. If women can get out of the loving assholes phase, men can get out of the asshole phase. And an ex-asshole will have a lot more confidence and experience then someone who’s been waiting 30 years for “girls” to “grow up.”

Or maybe I’m wrong. Maybe EVERYTHING is the guys fault.


“Ow! My little clonus!”

What if you want to be a doormat?

quote from Dire Wolf:

“If you don’t want to do something that she suggests, say no, and don’t be shy about it! You won’t piss her off, but you’ll show her you have some backbone, and self-confidence, which is what any decent woman wants to see in her man.”

What’s the matter with pissing a woman off every once in a while? Just don’t make it the “norm”. I find that highly conceded and pushy men drive women crazy. They’ll outwardly express their dislike for you but inside they’re getting all hot anticipating what your say or do next. Don’t get me wrong, this personality would also attract genuine animosity but if you’re tired of having girl “friends” then why would you care? You’d never hear, “I think of you as a brother” again

Good women will eventually fall all over decent and worthwhile men.

News flash. If they’re currently NOT falling all over you, which one is more likely–that it’s all the women’s fault for not noticing how wonderful and great you are, or that you have some character flaw you’re not aware of?

I can name yours already, Ura. You’re a bitter whiner. I never once whined about my bad situation (when it WAS bad–it’s absolutely wonderful now). I just took a long, hard look at myself, fixed what needed fixing, and moved on. And then found someone who was worth the effort.

What pisses me off the most about these threads are all the men sitting around blaming the women because they can’t get dates. Sure, some women are ingrained to go after assholes, mainly due to some childhood conflict. Do you really want that kind of woman in your life? No? Then why the FUCK do you complain so much that they don’t want you?

Christ, have some fucking patience. My fiance is a wonderful man. He’s not afraid to cry in front of me or lean on me in rough times. He’s a perfect rock when I have my insane times. He has always treated me with respect and consideration. When he makes mistakes, he owns up to them and apologizes. He has more integrity than anyone I’ve ever met. He likes cats, cries at sappy movies, and is quick with a favor or a kind word to anyone who needs it. I spent my entire life looking for someone like that. So there, now you’ve found one woman who ALWAYS searched for the nice guy. We’re not unicorns here–we exist.

So quit your fucking bitching and stop blaming an entire gender because YOU can’t get a date. It might take a while to find the right woman, but just because you’ve been through some shit doesn’t mean you have the right to be a bitter, misogynistic, narrow-minded asshole. It’s repugnant.

With all due respect, Drain, I pretty much agree with Ura-Maru on this one. You were saying:

Man, where is this planet, where women are interested in a guy who’s already been their friend for a fair length of time? As I pointed out here, pursuing female friends is nice-guy trap #1; it almost never pans out, but nice guys keep hoping. And hoping. And hoping.

Second, most ‘nice guys’ are aware of their tendency to finish last; on the whole, they don’t tend to chase the glamour queens, because they’ve completely internalized what a waste of time that is, and how outgunned they are by self-confident (or at least brazen) assholes. Don’t ask me where you found your nice-guy friends, but I wouldn’t consider them representative of the breed.

Based on my experience and long observation (see link above for more detail), such as it is, I’d say that most ‘nice guys’ are looking for a decent-looking woman, not a knockout, who they can have a good relationship with. The problem is, many of them aren’t getting particularly far in that department. (To give just one example, before I met Mrs. F. - when I was in my mid-30s - the longest relationship I’d been in lasted…oh, a shade under ten months, I think.)

While I do believe a great deal of the problems ‘nice guys’ have stems from a reluctance to take the initiative, take some risks romantically, and learn from their mistakes, I’ve gotta say I just don’t recognize your world. It’s no place I’ve been to, even for a brief visit.

Drain Bead
Guys aren’t always after women they can settle down with in Suburbian and have 10 kids. Some of us want some butt now and pick which one we’d like to settle down with later. Being patient is entirely too easy to say, especially when you have friends and co-worker bragging about the wild sex they had last night.