Nice guys never get the girl....

In My Humble Opinion
41

I did get the girl.

-But Blackclaw, you’re a bastard.

Well, I wasn’t at the time so shut up and let me tell the story.

At the time I was a nice guy and, as previous posters have pointed out, my problem was that I was shy and had no self confidence. I had plenty of female friends, but none that saw anything romantic in me. “You’re such a nice guy.” They’d tell me.

What saved me was I met Christine. She was older than me and had just dumped her abusive fiancee. She had had enough of “exciting” tough boys and was willing to put up with a boring guy in return for stability. The thing is once I was finally sure about the relationship. I gained confidence. Later I got a solid paying job job in that new e-economy thing everyone is talking about (though I’m sick of my present company right now. Anyone want a Lotus Notes Web developer?) and now I probably have a little too much self confidence. Oh I still have my doubtful days, but I’m a far different person than I was. I certainly am no longer boring. Insane perhaps. And now I have to beat women off with a stick. Well, not a stick. I’d never hurt a lady. Maybe a big wet noodle. But I know Christine was the catalyst for my change so she has nothing to worry about.

42

There is little doubt that not being able to hook up is a problem for most people in both genders. Near as I can tell, the reason for this is that most people would not date themselves–the majority of us fall in the bottem 75% of people charisma wise (and I am talking about looks and personality here) and spend most of our time looking in the top 25%. Both sexes have a rough time it.

That said, I must add that while some guys may have trouble attractign girls because they are too “nice”, this is far from the only reason girls fail to be attracted to a man, but it is perhaps the only one a fragile ego can live with. Women do the same thing–It is easier to tell oneself that the guys arn’t pounding down the door is because “my intelligence is intimidating” or “I’m not a slut” than it is to think “My personality is not particularly interesting” or “I’m stupid”.

What I find particularly annoying about self-proclaimed “Nice Guys” is the way they often tend to think this is a particularly male cross to bear, that “any woman can get laid anytime she wants”. I have heard this so many times and it bugs the hell out of me. It is not true It’s true if you are cute, or even average–if you have a nice personality, or are fun to talk to. But if you’re ugly, if you have trouble with small talk, if you are “the friend” that came along with the attractive girl–well, the dry spells can get pretty long. What makes it harder is that you are being told that any woman can get laid any time that she likes, and if you can’t, it makes you feel like a freak. The day I realized that the whole bottem 50% were in the same boat, and that that was rather a lot of people, I felt a whole lot better. “Nice Guys” seem to see woman as these Goddesses who have total control over relationships, and themselves as supplicants. It’s not like that–there is an inbalence of power in most relationships, especially early on, based on who wants the relationship more, and is thius at the mercy of the one who can walk away. But the gender of hte person in control can be either male or female.

Ultimitly, you have to realize that relationships happen between individuals, not men and women. I have more in commen with my signifigant other than I do with any memeber of my own sex–he has more in commen with me than he does with any man. You have to find the individual that is like you, and some individuals are harder matches than others. People that have totally average interests and tastes tend to match up quicker: more eccentric people have a harder row to plow in the dating game. But don’t say “women” don’t like me bacause I’m to nice–say “I haven’t yet met the type of woman that matches me”–then start looking in a different place, because where ever you are looking sure ain’t working.

43

Um, mine, and that of every single one of my friends?

Every decent and lasting relationship I’ve ever had has been with someone who was a friend for at least six months (and two of them for upwards of three years) before the romantic element EVER became an issue. I find if that trust is built before the sex comes into the picture, it makes both the trust and the sex better. My female friends and I have had several discussions to this effect. I would say it’s possibly an aspect of our respective ages, but Ura is my age, so I don’t really know what’s going on in his world. I’d have to find out where he meets these women, and how old they are. It’s hard to expect decent behavior from people who have been out of adolescence for a relatively short period of time. There’s a thread in MPSIMS about how fucked up people are when they’re 22, and the vast majority of people in there said they were total assholes at that age. Hence my telling Ura to have patience. Who wants a relationship with someone that is that fucked up? Unless Ura is saying that nice guys can’t get casual sex (which I would generally agree with–but for slightly convoluted reasons), but his mention of loneliness seemed to go a bit deeper.

But seriously, listen to what you said. You’re ruling it out completely that a woman would want to be friends first. For every male friend I went out with, there were probably just as many I MAY HAVE gone out with, but we never seemed to get our heads out of our asses long enough to actually ASK one another. “Nice” doesn’t have to equal “chickenshit,” does it?

And as for you, Rook:

What, you want to casually fuck several women and then decide which one is the nicest of all of them for a potential relationship? Yeah, that’s really something a nice guy would do. You don’t fucking belong in the company of the ACTUALLY nice men like Ura and RTFirefly.

44

In a lot of cases, neither one, unless one regards lack of self-confidence and assertiveness as a character flaw. The problem of all too many nice guys is that they never get anywhere because they’re reluctant to risk the attempt.

As I said on the more-or-less parallel thread, I carry no brief for the guys who whine that it’s the women’s fault for not noticing and pursuing them. While there may be more women taking the romantic initiative than there used to be, a guy can’t count on his getting lucky that way. He’s got to take some chances, be willing to risk rejection more than a few times, gradually learn from his mistakes how to approach a woman, and slowly build self-confidence from his occasional successes.

There are no short cuts: some people seem to be born knowing how to dance; the rest of us have to learn by tripping over our two left feet a bunch of times. It can be difficult, painful, and embarrassing, but the only way to learn the dance is to get out there on the floor.

45

Nice Guy for men = Lots of personality for women.
Another way to say fat.

46

No, I’m not ruling it out; I’m just saying that that’s not a possibility a guy should expect anything from. Ask? Trust me, I asked. And got the various and sundry lines: “Our friendship is too good to take a chance on messing up.” “We’ve been so close for so long, it would feel almost incestuous to be involved with you.” And so forth. I’ve been down that road more than twice, as Sheryl Crow would say.

And so has pretty much every other guy I’ve known. It seems to be one of those ‘nice guy’ universals. I believe you, Drain, when you speak of your own motivations, but there aren’t enough of your kindred spirits out there.

Oh yeah, I just noticed this:

Ah-HAH!

That’s what I get for not reading the thread more carefully. :wink:

Sorry, Drain, we’re talking about two separate things here. Brian’s a very wonderful guy, but he’s not a ‘nice guy’ in the sense we’re discussing here. If there’s a diffident bone in his body, I sure haven’t seen it - and that’s what we’re talking about here, I think: ‘nice guys’ are distinguished by a certain lack of assertiveness. Brian’s a good man, not a ‘nice guy’: there’s a significant gap between one and the other.

But wherever the line between them is, I think a guy who blames his failure to find romance on the behavior of women is neither a good man nor a ‘nice guy.’ At that point, he’s a guy who’s copping out, looking for a scapegoat for his problems. I remember the feeling well, but it isn’t a stance that will ever endear a guy to a member of the opposite sex.

47

I agree with Drain Bead. There is a difference between a female that is looking for “action” and whatever other buzz words you want to stick in there, and women.

My situation was simple, I’m in a city where I didn’t fit in. I’m smart, opinionated, fairly good looking, reasonably witty, but still lucked out a lot. The female types around here were looking mostly at looks and wallet size. Never mind sexual skills, I kept running into those who wanted successful men, women whose primary goal was that house in the suburbs. I’ve always been rebellous at heart. I finally found a woman who saw that, and despite being a quiet, nice guy on the outside, she saw the man inside. Most nice guys don’t know how to play the game. Lucky for them, they can choose where to jump in. Nice guys can bow to the pressure, and change into “rough” guys, or stand their ground, and wait for someone who understands.

Fortunately, I got the idea through listening to ladies bitch about their relationships around me. Complaining about their husbands who perpetually ignored them, treated them like dirt, yet kept running back to them the moment that “bad guy” showed the slightest bit of interest. Same old boring as shit soap opera. Why would a nice guy want to get into a relationship with someone like that? You sure as hell aren’t missing out on anything.

I’ve always been rebellous at heart. I finally found a woman who saw that, and despite being a quiet, nice guy on the outside, she saw the man inside.

48

Well, hell, Rook, you’ve got to be the one to decide who you are and what you want, and live with the choices that offers you. If you’re after a quick fuck, then I’m sure there must be somewhere in Seattle where one can reliably find women who will give you exactly that, as part of a straightforward cash transaction.

Aside from that, though, there are no guarantees. There isn’t a government social-welfare program, or even a private charity, out there to help out guys who just don’t feel they’re getting enough pussy.

49

Of course, if he blames himself, his confidence will go down even more, which will make him less assertive, which will make him even less likely to get a girl …

It’s a vicious, vicious cycle.

:wink:

50

For the record, you guys didn’t know me in High School. Let’s take a look at Satan when he was 20, shall we?

http://homepages.go.com/~cmcinternationalrecords/8-27-89.jpg

I am the guy in the white tee-shirt.

Now then, I was the prototypical “nice guy.” I was the guy who listened to girls in class tell me what an asshole their boyfriend was, and the whole time all I could think was, “if I had you as my girlfriend, I’d treat you like gold.”

I was the guy who did not lose his virginity until he was 21. Yes, older than in the picture above.

I was the guy who had tons of girls sign my yearbook but who couldn’t get a date to senior prom.

Trust me, RTFirefly: I was a nice guy in every LOUSY sense of the word.

My entire life after that has been about overcoming the “nice guy” image I had. I don’t have it in me to play the “bad guy,” but you see the way I look and carry myself - accentuating things I do like about myself - namely my humor and intelligence - and you have me.

I still have trouble accepting that people find me attractive, in fact…

Now, I have done a lot to cover up the “nice guy” that used to be all I was about. I have fooled a lot of people. I have even fooled you, and we met a couple times and I like you very much, RT.

That said, I have OT fooled Drainy. Not at all. She sees me as the geek in that picture. Oh, she doesn’t see me that way physically… But she sees the insecure, somewhat introverted around girls guy who doesn’t think much of his physical appearance.

But she also sees that I am going to treat her like gold.

And I will…

Yer pal,
Satan

*TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Six months, three weeks, four days, 1 hour, 4 minutes and 36 seconds.
8321 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,040.22.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 21 hours, 25 minutes.

David B used me as a cite!*

51

I never claimed to be a nice guy to begin with, but my comment didn’t necessarily pertain to me, although after I had that attitude (when I was single) I had women thinking i was the coolest thing since sliced bread. I think RTFirefly is absolutely right. Women don’t want to turn friendships into relationships. Have you ever heard of friendships ending from romantic involvement? It happens all the time! I guess this occurrence must be rare on your planet. Just the fact that so many men have heard, “I only think of you as a friend,” and “you’re like a brother to me” should tell you that a long lasting friendship first garbage isn’t going to achieve ANYTHING. Except a woman who calls you up when her boyfriend acts like an asshole. No matter how “nice” you are, you’ll eventually find this aggravating because you KNOW you can treat the women much better then that, but yet she still chooses the asshole. Inevitably, you’ll get the “why can’t I find someone like you” line that really pisses you off because you know she’s really not attracted to men like you.
I am speaking about women in general of course. There are exceptions like yourself and your “nice guy” seeking friends

52

What Manda JO said. Amen, sister.

53

Oh, and about the “women don’t want to turn friendships into relationships” thing…

Not true. Most of us have at least one male friend we’d go out with in a heartbeat. But we have several other male friends we wouldn’t go out with at all, because we know them well enough by now to realize it wouldn’t work. If we’d started by going out with these people, we’d have ended up realizing the same thing – only more painfully.

If you ask your friend out and she says no, it’s probably because she KNOWS it wasn’t meant to be.

54

Brian, that was a wonderful post.

Nonetheless, I stand by what I said, about the good man/nice guy business anyway (I take back the bit about there not being a diffident bone in your body, however). I’m not trying to tell you who you are, or what you’re not - even if I’d met you a million times, rather than twice, you’d still be the expert on you, and I wouldn’t be. But still.

“I was the guy who…” is the recurring phrase of your post. The geek you were may be still inside you - as he is inside me - but you’ve already discovered for yourself that that isn’t all you are. (“I’m more than that; I know I am. At least, I think I must be.” ;)) Same here, over a different time frame - I’ve had more time, and I’m pretty comfortable with my inner geek by now. (And good thing, too - he never goes away entirely.)

Anyway, we’re talking taxonomic classification here. Once you’ve learned to face up to your insecurities enough to act when you need to, no matter how much the insecurities are still there, and how much they still make you tremble, by my classification, you’ve stepped out of ‘nice guy’-hood. At least, that seems to me to be the place to draw the line. Does that make sense?

Anyhow, thanks for sharing that side of yourself. You’re a hell of a guy, Satan. :slight_smile:

55

And before I call it a night, Saint Zero, I just wanted to say that that was a very thoughtful and eloquent post. I’ve been wondering for awhile, how the Sam Hill did you wind up in Mississipoli? (Ah joy - obscure song references in consecutive posts! Bet Brian gets at least one out of two. ;))

I especially appreciated this part:

I’m not sure I can add anything to that.

Good night, all. :slight_smile:

56

My wife asks me that all the time, I have to tell her she needs to talk to my parents, who lived here when I was born. :smiley:

Seriously? Born and Raised here. It’s only recently I’ve seen reasons to move.

It’s how I am. I’ve always rebelled when someone one told me how to act or what to do. It wasn’t always smart, but I’m a quick learner. I kept my ears open and listened, figuring that if others had made the mistakes, I didn’t need to. :smiley:

57

There are two types of men at work here, it seems to me. First, there’s the nice guy who becomes positively assertive, bring heretofore buried positive qualities to the surface, transforming from shy nice guy to confident go-getter. I’ve seen it happen (though not to me, God forbid).

Then there’s the former nice guy who becomes bitter and cynical and Plays the Role. He finds out (often from other guys who get laid more than he) what women want to hear, and he says these things. He is a nice guy no more, having become a manipulator. I’ve seen this type as well, and many of them seem to burn out early.

To the men laboring under the nice guy stigma: strive to be the former and improve yourself.

To the unwary women: beware of the latter. They will hurt you.

Just one birdman’s opinion…

58

I am going to make a few gernralizations here that I am uncomfortable with, but there dosen’t seem to be any way around it. Many (but far from alll or even most) women look at complaining in a way that is apperently odd to many men. Many women complain socially. It is very easy for a woman to feel close enough to a male friend to complain to him about all the things that her boyfriend does wrong, but not about the things he does right, especially if that male friend is single-it seems tacky to talk about how mind blowing the sex is, or how good he is at reading your mind, or how happy you are, to some one who is single and lonely. But it is okay to talk about all the things your boyfriend does that you don’t like–it’s a way of saying “Don’t be jealous, coupled life ain’t perfect”. Most people are basically reasonable, and if they are staying in a relationship they probably have better reasons than “He treats me like shit and I love it”. If that is there reason, then they are Not Good Realtionship Material, I daresay.

In the same vein, when a woman says she won’t go out with you because you’re “like a brother” or “you’re too nice” she is doing what’s called “letting you down easy”. At some point she has considered going out with you and rejected the idea. This could be for any number of reasons–Maybe you chew with your mouth open, maybe you listen to rap, maybe your mother terrorized your last girlfriend and she heard about it, maybe she will never be able to identify with your Hotwheels obsession. Whatever the reason, you don’t expect her to come out and tell you do you? Men let women down easy as well–no one likes to be rejected, and most decent people are sensitive enough not to give an itemized list of the other person’s shortcomings. Would you really want to know?

59

Hey, it’s hard for us women’s to meet men too, you know.
Let’s have a single’s party! Whoo-hoo!

I’d like to have a nice guy, haha. A nice, normal man would be … sigh! Just dreamy! As for me, I have no credit card debt, I scrub up pretty good, I don’t lie, cheat, or steal, but I do have cats.

Any takers?
:slight_smile:
A girl

60

Well, that’s not a whole lot of information to go on, A.G., but I am very good with cats.