Well, it happens! Lots of people in this thread have had it happen to them at least once. So, wanna pretend it doesn’t happen now? Like I said, it doesn’t need to happen every time I step out the door for it to be something bad.
You honestly cannot see the difference between “This happens to me twice a day!” and “This happened to me once, in 1983”?
Do you mean “actually happens” as in “has ever happened to me” or “happens to me often enough that you’re willing to concede people who do this shit are douchenozzles?”
I can see the difference and that’s why you don’t see me starting the “Introverted people given a hard time at parties” charity fund. So it happened once, twice, maybe five times (or more, depending on who you talk to and in what circles they run)…and I should be OK with someone being a jerk because of the low incidence rate? That’s not a very good reason.
We’re in a thread made to talk about the social expectations of introverts - if you don’t want me to chime in and say “man, I hate it when someone bugged me at a party about being quieter than average just because they like being gung-ho” here, I don’t know where else I should ever bring it up. A small thread on a board on the internet once a year isn’t exactly us screaming from the rooftops and marching down the street or anything about how maligned we are. Sounds just about right for the level of dissatisfaction I’m feeling with this aspect of the human race.
Care as in having a swollen, compassionate, trembling heart for his precious introverted quirks?
Or care as in understanding and respecting?
I was thinking that’s pretty much why we participate in threads like this one. To promote awareness of feelings and to share a different point-of-view. Not to change hearts, but to open minds. Maybe this is too idealistic?
If an extrovert can walk away from this thread with a better understanding of how annoying the question “Why are you so quiet?” can be, maybe they will think twice before saying it. MAYBE the introvert in their presence will have a better time because of it and actually be more likely to pipe in at their own pace. Maybe the change we seek can be mutual, rather than one-sided. Introverts AND extroverts can work harder at making social interactions more fun.
I still don’t know how Roddy is supposed to change. He’s not doing anything rude or wrong by taking a respite from socializing to collect his thoughts. But it is rude to ask someone intrusive questions like “Why are you so freaking quiet?!” I guess we act like Buddhist sages and tell poor Roddy to be as detached we are. But we don’t usually do this when we’re talking about other social shittiness. So it doesn’t make sense to do it now. At least to me.
I hate having my feelings belittled, so I try not to do that with other people. And that’s what it sounds like you’re doing to Roderick.
I think people who do this are douchnozzles, no matter how often it happens. (Unless, of course, I’m having the same experiences but don’t perceive them in the same way, in which case eh. Perceptions matter.)
But if it happens once a decade, it’s something annoying that happens once a decade, so big deal.
If it happens once a year, maybe that’s a big deal and figuring out a way to cope with it is necessary.
If it happens every three minutes, that’s a huge deal and just living with it isn’t realistic.
But also, if you say it happens every three minutes and someone else says it’s very rare and I say it’s never happened to me, that would make me wonder what the variables are in the experience, as I pointed to upthread.
So, I’m an introvert and also apparently a really slow learner. I learned 20 years ago that the way to avoid awkward silences when talking to a stranger was to ask them questions about themselves. But I’ve only just recently learned that the way to keep strangers from monopolizing conversations is not to sit and wait for them to throw the conversation back at you with some kind of, “What about you, do YOU play an instrument?” question that will probably never come, but to seize the moment and volunteer, “You know, I play the drums too and …”
This was seriously a mindblowing revelation. I don’t know if it’s because the way I was raised or maybe my self-esteem is lower than I think, or what, but my default state with strangers is to be the person who listens sympathetically and asks you all about your life, no really, tell me more. For years, I would get through social situations with strangers by gently interrogating them, and I just took it for granted that other people don’t want to hear about me because, hey, if they did, they’d ask, right? And it seems like most people don’t ask – they’re perfectly willing to yammer away about their cats or whatever, but they don’t toss it back to you with a “So, do you have any pets?” or “Now, where was the last place you visited on vacation?”
Once I figured out the old “keep strangers talking about themselves” trick (also a major aha! moment at the time), I would walk away from conversations pleased that I was able to keep the flow of talk going for as long as necessary (goddamn, why do wedding receptions have to be so long?), but I’d also feel a little resentful of that stranger who never asked me about myself. And then I realized that better than not feeling like a social failure who can’t communicate with strangers is not feeling like a social failure AND ALSO not feeling like a doormat who will let some dude bloviate for 32 minutes on his golf strategy while you sit there and mutter, “Oh really? So what iron did you use for that?”
So the remedy is (hang onto your seat): VOLUNTEER INFORMATION. For one thing, you’ll feel more like an equal partner in the conversation. Another is that one of the reasons these people could be talking endlessly about themselves is that you’re sitting there like a blank page, not giving them anything to work with. [Why they don’t think to ask you about yourself could be any reason, and it is probably not because they’re self-centered assholes. Maybe they’re nervous, too, and they deal with nerves by talking too much.]
You’re probably afraid of boring them, right? But replying with a few sentences about yourself isn’t being boring, and (as you probably know from being on the receiving end of long monologues) being bored isn’t all that excruciatingly painful, so if you do commit the sin of being boring, it’s only a tiny sin and very forgivable. So go ahead and let Guy Next to You go on for a while about the time he went to Seattle, and after a few minutes, throw in, “I was in Seattle a few years ago, myself. I saw and did [x, y, z, 1, 2, 3] – did you get a chance to see [1, 2, 3]?” Or, “I’ve never been to Seattle, but I was in Portland last year – great city, [I did x, y, z], have you ever been there?”
So you’re offering something of yourself while still including him in the give and take. He won’t be bored, you’ll be more of an equal conversation partner so you’ll feel better about the exchange afterwards, and you’ll be very polite by both talking about yourself and graciously giving the guy a question to respond to.
Maybe. From where I’m standing I see some people identifying as introverts and see some portion of those people being contemptuous of the other side, then being upset that they (the belittling ones) aren’t getting a lot of respect.
I also see that someone came in looking for advice on how to gain social skills.
I also see that on this board, lots of people claim they have problems with social skills. When I pointed out they are learnable, Roderick Femm said that he would have to have the desire to learn them in order to learn and that he does not have that desire.
I have no idea what to say in response to that except if you continue to do the same things over and over you will continue to get the same result over and over. Other people won’t change. If it’s troublesome, fix it. If it’s not troublesome, don’t.
Thanks I’m fine is an adequate response to a clerk in a store. Thanks I’m fine is a rather terse reply for your concerned host. A slightly longer explanation would probably persuade even the pushiest host that you are, in fact, enjoying yourself. Is it really too much trouble to express appreciation for the hospitality?
But this is the blind spot. The extroverts are explaining why they show concern to a quiet, subdued guest, and wonder aloud why introverts bother attending parties. The introverts each make disparaging comments about outgoing guests and show disdain for the concerned hosts. Get it? The extravert is concerned about your happiness and well-being, while the introvert applies a critical eye and barely concealed contempt for extroverts.
Okay I’m going to pull a straight-up example from this board of something like an introvert goes through sometimes.
So. While this one doesn’t explicitly say he said anything out loud, I presume he said some niceties such as “no thanks, I’m not a dancer”. There are other examples in that thread of people absolutely saying things out loud. This is what we introverts are talking about with the party thing. As said before: we have no problem telling you once or twice during the night that we’re doing great, the food is good, and we like your music, but it’s cool, we like it here on the couch. It’s when we get into this extra bit with the whole ignoring what we say thing that it becomes a problem.
And seriously…you gotta lay off the whole “barely concealed contempt” thing - because it sure makes it sound like that’s describing you right now. Doesn’t help your argument.
The answer to “and wonder aloud why introverts bother attending parties” is that we like attending parties and being around people. Just not people that treat our mindset as something wrong.
I totally get what Roderick is saying because it’s the exact same problem I am dealing with. I would like to be more comfortable at socializing too. There are people who I like, who I wouldn’t mind having like me back. But socializing is not fun for me. Neither is learning how. It really is a chore. I have been practicing my whole life and have spent ridiculous amounts of money in adulthood trying to develop this skill. I have gotten better and I have done things that years ago I never thought I’d do, but it has never gotten that much more enjoyable. And despite all my practicing, I still struggle.
If a person who struggles with social skills is invited to a party and they decide to go because they care about pleasing the host who has invited them, what’s the best way to let him feel welcomed? Shall we give him a hard time whenever he stands off to the side to collect his thoughts, or shall we let him do what feels natural to him? Shall we make him feel guilty for not being a social butterfly? Or should we praise him for breaking out of his cocoon to come to the party in the first place? Seems like it’d be a lot more effective to encourage people to move in the understanding and respectful direction than it would be to tell Roddy to change how he feels about their rude behavior. No behavior is immutable. But feelings just are.
You might as well ask what makes some women get sexually assaulted multiple times while others never are. There’s a host of variables, primarily different populations made up of different individuals and plain old luck.
I will say that it doesn’t happen to me nearly as often as it used to–maybe once a year instead of every damn party I went to. It could be that the people I’m around these days are older and either mature enough to accept that not everyone has to be like them, or polite enough to let me be even if they don’t believe I’m having fun. It could be that we’ve mostly been around the same crowd for a few year now and they’ve been around me often enough to know that’s just how I roll. It could be that I’ve perfected the steely glare that goes with “No, really, I’m FINE.” I honestly don’t know.
Oh, this is where I disagree with you. Because you and I can agree that no one should be a bitch to Roddy at a party, but if we’re not the ones throwing the party, what we say is absolutely immaterial. And no matter what we believe, he’ll still be dealing with the people he’s dealing with.
There is nothing objectively wrong with someone expressing concern over how a person is feeling at their party, so this isn’t necessarily a matter of finding a victim or wrong-doing. There may be no bad actors. There may be jerks, so we can say, “Yo, jerks, stop doing that!” Okay, we’ve said that. Now what?
People complaining about how they are treated at a party or similar situations are the common denominator in their own lives. If they change how they perceive the events, they change it for their future events, and if they are the ones in this thread, they are the ones reachable by the thread.
As you say, no behavior is immutable. But we can’t expect people who have never heard of us to be magically impacted by what we say. Again, “Don’t be jerks!” But again, they aren’t necessarily even being jerks in the first place.
As for your other comment about feelings, they are incredibly changeable. We can change the way we think and feel all the time.
As I said upthread, I’m an introvert. I’m fairly extreme in my dislike for most socializing. Why do I dislike it? Because it’s tiring. I have to flip the “socializing” switch, and that drains my batteries very quickly. So I am not in any way attempting to say that gee, socializing is infinitely easy for everyone if they just try harder. I am saying that how we relate to other people is changeable, and if we choose not to change it, we are in fact choosing to live with what we’ve got.
I know a few people in the thread are objecting to this as some sort of victim blaming, but again, I don’t know that it’s a given that anyone is actually doing anything wrong. But I know that one side is complaining about something other people do with no power to make that other group change and with no way to demonstrate that the other side is even behaving badly as far as the majority of people go. What does that leave?
FTR, at this point, this thread is about as much fun for me as parties are for some of you, so I think I’ll bow out at this point. I can hear your sighs of relief from here!
OK, Mr. Pushy Host, tell me precisely how much of an explanation do I need to give to you, so that you believe that I am actually enjoying myself (or was, before you came over)?
You keep cherry-picking my posts so you can find some niggling point to respond to. So just answer my question. Exactly how much of an explanation of my quietness do I owe you, guest to host?
Assume for this example that I am sitting on your sofa, drink in hand, canapé at elbow, listening to two other people talk. You have watched me for five minutes, and although I have smiled and nodded, I haven’t actually spoken. You may also assume that I have complimented you once on the party arrangements and hospitality, but that was at least 30 minutes ago.
What do I have to do to convince you that you have no need to worry about me, your guest, and you can go attend to your other duties. Huh? How much do I have to share with you? What do I have to tell you? Go on, give me a precise amount of personal information you require so that you can let me go back to what I was enjoying before you interrupted? And put it in quotes so I can remember the exact words to use in this vital situation. Surely your generous extroverted self, who is so concerned about my well-being, can spare a useful phrase or two for me to use?
Roddy
Not an extrovert, not an expert. And you don’t appear to hear the answers you’ve been given to your question, but I’ll give it another go. Firstly, party attendance isn’t mandatory, so declining might be your best option if you are so frequently put on the spot. And you can certainly leave if you’re made to feel uncomfortable. Is it safe to assume that you know the hosts and at least some of the guests beforehand? Then you ought to know what to expect, and you might remember that alcohol serves to lower inhibitions and that normally well mannered acquaintances might just go a little overboard with the enthusiasm and encouragement once the drinks start flowing.
You could grin and say “I’m this parties resident introvert, happy and content to observe, didn’t you get the memo?” “I’m happier observing, great party thanks for checking on me” “I’m taking it all in and enjoying everyone else, anything I can do to help you?”
But if you think a glare or a terse “I’m fine” is the appropriate response to enthusiasm and concern, the problem is all yours, Wallflower. If you are in the minority and behaving differently from most of the other guests, you are likely to draw concern and attention to yourself. How you respond to that attention determines whether or not you will continue to enjoy your spot in the corner or sit there seething until you can get home and lash out.
I’m not reading the same ire from extroverts that I’m seeing from the intros. They are concerned for your happiness and the flow of the party, not attempting to needle you, and are probably laboring under the assumption that you enjoy parties of would have declined. If you want to attend and ensure that you and everyone around you enjoys themselves, the least you can do is grin and create at least minimal, reassuring banter in order to keep the mood light.
I agree that ‘thanks, I’m fine’ could come across a bit sharp. You could easily soften it with something like, ‘I’m fine thanks, I’m a pretty quiet person and this is my way of relaxing and enjoying myself.’
Gosh, I wonder how many times we can give these people the responses they want before they actually hear them. Perhaps this is part of the problem?
Here are examples I’ve given of what I might say if asked how I am doing:
“Nah, not my thing. I’ll just look at the stars for a few minutes then I’ll join you when I’m done my drink.”
“Party’s great, thanks, I’m doing good just as I am”
“Thanks, but I like watching”
“[I’m] doing great, the food is good, and [ I ] like your music, but it’s cool, [ I ] like it here on the couch”
In what world are these delivered with a glare and a spit? In what world is “thanks, I’m fine” always some backhand sharp thing thrown at you? We’ve given plenty of examples of being nice. Putting on a grin and waving the drink and giving the polite laugh because yeah, that’s social convention and we’re here to have a good time. Why do you insist on believing that we will always be delivering these lines with open hostility? Is there no way to convince you of what we are talking about or are we always going to be sitting there growling at everyone in your eyes, no matter what we say or do?
I mean, if this is the fifth time we’re being bothered about how our face looks or how quiet we are, or the way the question itself is framed as rude (only stuff like “Why are you so fracking quiet?!” is rude, and most people don’t go anywhere near that), we’re going to start getting short because the intrusiveness is ruining the good mood for everyone. That’s the sort of issue we’re discussing here. Not a one time “oh, doing cool over here?” question.
Of course, if you are not the type of person to ask someone five times at a party, “You’re quiet, is something wrong?”, “You don’t look happy”, “Are you sure that you’re doing ok?”, “Why aren’t you dancing?”, “Are you always this sad?”
Then we’re not talking about you. You are not the problem.
It’s exactly the problem, both in the thread and IRL. Some people just can’t take yes for an answer, because it’s not put forth in their exact preferred method.