On the gender politics surrounding fellatio:

Great Debates
1

Disclaimer: I have emailed a Mod about this topic; otherwise it would not be here (given the possibility that it could be misinterpreted). Further, this is not intended as a topic to create sensation or controversy, rather I have some sincere questions about this matter.

Basically, what I am wondering is this: Just how troubling, from a feminist political perspective is fellatio? My experience has been that the two basic camps:
[list=1]
[li]Any expression of sexuality between two consenting partners in an equality-based relationship is ok.[/li][li]This is some atavistic servicing of the male phallus, and has no place in feminist politics.[/li][/list=1]
Admittedly, a lot of my formative ideas of feminist politics come from a very much “Second Wave” perspective (simply due to may age and the political situation during my upbringing). That perspective, at least what I encountered, leaned towards the later point. I am wondering both if there are other views on the subject, and what the prevailing though is today.

2

I’m not following something, which usually stems from my lack of knowledge: What does fellacio have to do with politics at all? Unless you mean the kind that Clinton was getting?

Please elaborate for us dopers who are less in the know.

3

So long as oral sex is reciprocated, then there will be no “atavistic servicing” of anything.

Sex is doing whatever that makes you feel good with your partner. If you have politics in your mind while having sex, then youre thinking too deep. Be intimate with her not her gender.

4

Interesting question. I wonder how long it will last before it devolves into a somewhat less serious topic. :slight_smile:

I will try to answer seriously, though. I think that shoehorning “gender politics” into a sexual act or position is somewhat inappropriate. If such politics come into play, it is not as a result of the act itself, but rather as a result of the intentions and motivations that are behind the act… things which change from individual to individual, and from encounter to encounter.

Take these examples, and consider how the gender politics change from on to the other.

Example (A): Susan is in a relatively happy marriage with a man who, on occasion, expects to receive fellatio. She doesn’t particularly like to do it, and feels that it is somewhat demeaning, but does it to please him. The expectation is that she’s the wife, so she gives her husband this pleasure occasionally.

Example (B): Georgia is in a relatively happy marriage, in which her and her husband both enjoy some light bondage in their sex. One of their mutual favorite positions is him being tied up/handcuffed on a bed while she performs fellatio on him. She feels powerful and sexy while doing it, and he loves the attention.

These are two examples… basically the same act (fellatio), but I think you’d agree that the “gender politics” of each are quite different. To my mind (A) puts the man in the power position, with the woman submissive. (B) sort of does the opposite (though this is debatable too), putting the woman in the dominant role. There are infinite variations of this, many of which put neither man nor woman into a “power” position, but in which both are equal pariticipants. It is not the act that defines the gender politics, but the individuals involved and the nature of their interaction.

One further point is that these things change over time. To get slightly personal (possible TMI here), for a long time my wife felt that sex with her on her knees and me behind her was demeaning. I could see what she meant, and I respected her view on it, so for a long time I avoided that position in our repertoire. In a relatively recent development, she now very much enjoys that position, and will tell me so. If I were to interpret the “gender politics” at play here, I would say that early in our relationship, she felt degraded in that position. Now, however, she feels empowered by her willingness and ability to know what gives her pleasure, and to get it. Same act, but a change in perspective (and experience) gives it a different spin.

I don’t see that gender politics are inherent in any particular act or position, but only in the motivations of the participants.

There. Hopefully that was kept relatively highbrow.

5

Meatros, there are people in the world who actually believe that sexual positions or techniques are inherently statements of power and subjection or submission.* They, of course, have been known to command other people to use only “preferred” positions or techniques that either emphasize the power struggle or reject it–thus creating a self-fullfilling prophecy regarding the “political” nature of what should be simply an expression of physical delight in the body of another person, particularly in the context of giving and taking love.

Typically, positions such as the “missionary” (so called because there is a story that missionaries to the South Seas ordered their new converts to engage in sex in only that position), “doggie” style, and some others have come under fire from some groups as being deliberately intended to subjugate women. Fellatio has also come in for scorn for the same reason.

  • Obviously, in any specific relationship, any position or technique may be demanded or denied in such a way as to indicate a power struggle within that relationship. My general point refers to whether any position or technique is, in and of itself, actually political.
6

I guess that my use of the term politics could have been more clear. I was less referring to, say, the governance of a state or nation and more using it in the “personal is political” sense wherein it is more or less assumed that the way in which we conduct ourselves personally impacts society at large.

7

Thanks Tom andBinary . In answer to the question, I guess I should stay out of it, as I’m not a feminist. This could be because I’m unfamilar with feminism though. I don’t want to detract from the debate or cause a tangent so suffice it is to say, I will be reading this thread from now on.

8

So, your point #2 was based on the idea of, “a feminist’s political opinions dictate how she expresses herself physically”, in which case this particular act would seem repugnant to some people? I can see how that would be very true and important for a great many people; I can also see how I would want very little to do with them, either in or out of bed…

9

From my feminist political position, not at all.

Other feminists I know are political lesbians - i.e. any sex with men is inheirently degrading.

Personally, I try to keep feminist politics as far away from my consentual sex life as possible. Its no business of other feminists if I spend my spare time worshipping my husband’s penis, just like its none of mine if they don’t.

Binarydrone, where are you getting this from?

10

Here, for example.

11

Ethilrist, that is the general idea, and I can appreciate your sentiment.

As to where I am getting this stuff, Dangerosa, that gets a little long winded. Basically, if I had to nutshell it, I would say that I am on the tail end of recovery from some very self-destructive ideas and politic that I pretty much swallowed whole as a result of my upbringing and higher education.

In essence, I was sold a bill of goods that include things like the notion that any sexuality as it is expressed heterosexually is inherently oppressive (towards the woman), and that I should somehow be inherently apologetic for my Y chromosome or something.

I am getting better now, but am still working out some of the issues.

12

Fellatio can be seen as an act of control also.

The woman controls her mates pleasure during fellatio.
The male controls his mates pleasure.
It may be considered a sign of submission if the person administers the act unwillingly, but then the act becomes less intimate for the couple.

Fellatio - Im going to do this to you and for you but Im in control. (ideally)

To bring political posturing into it seems convoluted. But I can see how it can happen. It could evolve into some kind of power struggle if abused.

13

Yeah, Ms. Schwartz, or maybe some women don’t like giving blow jobs. Probably has less to do with gender politics and more to do with the idea of putting someone’s genitalia in your mouth. You know, the part urine comes out of. I don’t think many of us (whatever our sexual preference) heard about oral sex the first time and thought “gee, sounds delicious, I want to try that!”

I’ve been with men who don’t like performing oral sex on women - is that gender politics, too?

By the way, surprising that 40% of women don’t find fellatio appealing? Where have they been living, under a rock with a stack of porn flicks? Most women I know do it because it gives their partner a great deal of pleasure.

I did have a boyfriend where oral sex with him was demeaning. But it was the way he treated me, not the act itself.

BinaryDrone - yep, had some of those conversations myself. Did you know that all film of women is degrading - because the camera is actually a voyeuristic phalus? :rolleyes: They’ve completely missed the “sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.” Best wishes on getting better. It helps if you burn the Dworkin.

14

Best of luck on the road to recovery, Binarydrone. May you find new enjoyment in a healthy relationship and sex life.

15

>>Fewer than two in 10 found it ‘‘very appealing.’’

When I find such a woman I worship her :slight_smile:

16

And now for a totally tanget moment:

Can’t imagine gay life without it.

17

When my husband gets down about his cow-orkers saying he is pussy whipped or teasing him about doing housework, or some such thing, I tell him to tell them that his wife gives good head and she swallows. That, and the pic of me naked in his wallet does an amazing job of shutting them up. He was surprised at how effective this was. It very much can be political.

I enjoy oral sex, given or received. Swallowing is an aquired taste, but something I wanted to do to please him. Now it is a joy. I also keep my hair long just to please him. It is amazing how critical my female coworkers are of me keeping my hair long to please him. They seem to think any curtailment of my personal freedom for him is wrong, even if done willingly. I bet they would be horrified at the swallowing, all except those that personally enjoy it. Some I can’t imagine enjoying anyting.

I am a feminist. When I signed up it was about freedom to make choices. It was about getting equal protection under the law and changing culture so that I and others would have the freedom to make the choices they wanted to. Many don’t seem to like it when others make choices that they themselves would not make. Oral sex is one of those choices.

My husband is going quit his job to stay home and care for our child, his choice and mine. In the mean time with his knee and my expanding belly, fellatio is one of the few ways we can easily have sex. I’m glad he likes it and so do I.

18

Sounds like you dated a woman in feminists studies that took things a bit too seriously. I hooked up with a girl I used to date a few years after she got bit by the feminist bug, and I was amazed at the stuff they had brainwashed her with. I actually feel sorry for those people.

19

Is cunnilingus “servicing” the female phallus (the clitoris)? If so, how is not demaning like fellatio is supposed to be?

If you are receiving oral sex, you are actually in a position of extreme vulnerability. Your partner needs only to bite down and you will experience extreme pain.

So IMHO giving oral sex puts one in more power than receiving it.

20

http://www.ale-pub.com/emoticons/puke3.gif

ack i really wish we didnt go there…