alibey it’s too early in the morning to drag this any further. If you must address me again on this issue do so in a forum were I can reply forcefully, if you don’t mind.
Sparc
PS I know full well what German cities looked like after Allied carpet bombing. Beyond pictures and film I am sitting in one that was flattened to 87% as I type and some of the scars are still visible on the cityscape. DS
ok, peace
which city?
btw, congrats on the World Cup.
Sparc!
Dresden? As far as I know, it had old architecture and a minimal amount of war-industry, as also Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The question for me is, why these cities?
But that is another story.
Excuse me for hijacking.
OK, without getting into the whole who-owns-the-land thing, I ust want to know why so many people persist in denying the evidence caught on camera that Palestinians en masse celebrated the destruction of the WTC. I’m not going to get into wheteth they had any jusatification or any rationales. I just want to understand why so many posters here refuse to believe the evidence in front of them. Palestinians who hate Jews and Americans are not the extreme; they are the consensus.
It is entirely possible for an entire nation to be full of hate.
Rwanda 1994
Cambodia 1976-1979
Germany 1933-1945
Armenia 1916
Until you acknowledge that hate really exists, you’ll never cure it.
Sadly, you’re quite likely right. Perhaps I should have broadened my statement to several hundred thousand or over a million does not an entire population make. I know I give the appearance to you of down-playing Palestinian intransigence and violence, but that is not my intention. I’m apparently just not very good at making myself clear. Certainly hate at some level has become the inculculated view of at least a majority of Palestinians in the last few years. I don’t disagree with that at all.
I do disagree that that hate has always been there at the level it is now - But that has already been argued elsewhere. Nor do I agree that they are currently no innocents - You can hate ( ignorantly or not ) and still not be responsible for, or in support of, suicide bombers and the mass slaughter of Jews. Even if you do support such things, that does not necessarily mean that reflects deeply held conviction - As the much argued poll numbers reflect, the number supporting such barbarities has risen several-fold over the last few years - Which means these attitudes should be able to be reversed as well. Even accepting the current high level of support, joe_cool’s absolutist stance would apparently ignore the minority who still refuse to support the violence, even in the current climate. Finally I don’t agree that this current level of hatred is justification ( nothing is ) for declaration of “total war” on a civilian population.
MHO, nothing more.
I agree with you on several points
The hate that exists now has not always been so extreme
The level of hatred does not justify Sharon’s tactics.
There are doubtless many Palestinians and Israelis who want only to raise their children in peace.
My point was that many posters here refuse to believe that hate exists. Until we look at the world as it is and not as we would like it to be, we’ll never find real-world solutions to the violence.
No, I think most posters here DO believe that hate exists.
They just don’t see it as totally unjustified - or at least, they make some attempt to understand the motivations of that hate. It’s not just hate for hate’s sake, it is caused by something.
A few points. The propaganda campaign on the Palestinian side must not be forgotten. For an example of the mentality of this campaign, go to this address:
http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/halabaya.html
Here it is suggested that every single Jew is a terrorist and should be killed, every Jew in America as well as Israel. Now, has there been a calling on the Israeli side to kill every single Palestinian? Correct me if I’m wrong, but, if it wanted to, doesn’t Israel have the military capability of complete destruction of the areas in which the Palestinians live, indiscriminately and thoroughly, from the air? This being the case, they have shown restraint. They have not decided that all Palestinians are terrorists, or at least have decided to not allow such thoughts to effect their actions to a great extent. Now, back to the propaganda. Consider what it would mean if you were subject to this sort of propaganda from birth (I would like to remind you that certain children’s shows have stated similar things on the Palestinian side, but I can’t recall where I discovered that information.) If you were, would you question it? Would you think that Jews were evil or good? From birth you are taught what is right and wrong. If you are taught that Jews are evil, it will be difficult to reverse the effects of such lessons. This being the case, even if the occupation instantly stopped, if Israel became passive, if they sat down and took no action against the Palestinians, they would be destroyed. Why? Because the brainwashed Palestinians would see it as an opportunity to “drive the Jews into the sea.” We can talk about occupation and desperation, but it is not necessary to turn toward violence to solve such problems. The actions of Martin Luther King Jr. prove this. He could have led a violent movement against the oppressors of African Americans. He did not. Thus, there are multiple options. No, it is a far deeper hatred that is at work here, and that is the hatred between most, if not all, fundamental Muslims of Jews.
So if I decided to hate Palestinians, because of homicide bombings and the murder of children, as well the Iranian mullahs for illegal arms shipments to the PLO, and Saddam Hussein for paying blood money to homicide bombers families, is that OK?
After all, it’s not totally unjustified, and it is caused by something.
It’s not OK, but it’s understandable even though it is still wrong. That’s the distinction you seem to not unserstand no matter what way anyone puts it.
Sparc
I understand it perfectly… a lot of Palestinians hate the Israeli Jews because they’re… Israeli Jews. They are different. They follow a different religion and have different customs.
So now it’s your turn. Are you going to spend a single iota of energy trying to understand why the Israeli’s are retaliating the way they are? Understanding works both ways, you know.
It’s not that I don’t understand, I disagree with your “distinction”. What kind of distinction is that? It’s not Ok, but it’s understandable, but it’s wrong?
Hatred of another group of people based on some traits or behaviors or thoughts one imagines they all share is irrational, which is the antethesis of understandable.
Irrational is not the antithesis of understandable. It is the opposite of rational and maybe the antithesis of reasonable. It is perfectly possible to understand irrationality if you try to see things from the perspective of the person(s) being irrational. That doesn’t mean that you have to agree with them, nor does it mean that you thereby approve.
I note that milroyj seems to suddenly disapprove of judging people based on majority opinions. I hope that milroyj will be able to apply this newfound wisdom to his own posts hence forth.
Sparc
Sparc, at this point we are talking past each other. To summarize my point, I quote the HRW, an organization that I generally hold suspect in terms of their politics. But in this case, they are dead on.
http://hrw.org/press/2002/06/busbomb0619.htm
From the Executive Director:
bolding mine
Revulsion IS the only appropriate response, trying to understand is craven, self-serving, complete and utter bullshit, IMHO. 
sorry about that, don’t know how that smiley snuck in there!
Which IMHO is simplistic, counter productive, moronic and dogmatic poppycock.
You see it’s not that there can be any other emotional response to the suicide bombings, it’s that they are a symptom of many deeper and more ill defined, harder to grasp sicknesses of the society in question. Those need a cure for the bombings to stop.
In order to end the suicide bombings revulsion, counter strikes and dogmatic babble is going to lead absolutely nowhere. That’s the response the suicide bombings are geared to produce, hence you play right into the hands of Hamas by reacting that way.
Sparc
No - that’s entirely untrue. They hate Israeli Jews because they (rightly or wrongly etc) perceive them as living in their land, and oppressing them. They couldn’t give a flying fuck about a load of Jews in New York going to synagogue, or a load of Christians in London eating pork, or a load of Buddhists in Japan drinking alcohol.
Of course I understand why the Israelis are retaliating the way they are! That doesn’t make it right though. I understand why they’re doing it, but I think they are being too heavy-handed. I understand why Palestinian suicide bombers do what they do, but I still think it’s wicked that they target civilians.
In truth, what we may be dealing with is the product of propaganda. Media is controlled by the Palestinian Authority, and certain statements make their way through that encourage the hatred of, not just Israeli Jews, but all Jews. Now, I don’t know what sort of effect such statements are having, but if the propaganda succeeds, once finished with Israel, the terrorists will pursue Jews everywhere, or try to. We seem to always ignore the propaganda and think that the sole cause is Palestinian desperation. I think that propaganda is may be part of it.
“Which IMHO is simplistic, counter productive, moronic and dogmatic poppycock.”
No.
I’m sorry, but evil does not deserve to be “understood”. It deserves to be stopped.
There is a distinct black and white with regard to the slaughter of innocents. Attempting to “understand” this depth of evil only leads to a “shades of grey” attitude and degrees of legitimizing said evil. There is no place for understanding of the killing of innocents.