Palastinian bombers have NO excuse. Prove me wrong!

Great Debates
141

Tygr’s point has been replied to at least a hundred times by a solid dozen members by now. If Tygr or anyone else feels that a more nuanced viewpoint would be of help I suggest searching through the incredibly vast material that has been compiled in GD and the Pit on the matter.

I might note that as of yet; no one, not one single poster has been able to maintain the position of condemning understanding all the way out. If you feel you are the one who can; then research what has been said so far and come up with something new and well argued. IMHO the present last remark has been thoroughly refuted by solid counter argument and will not do as basis for continued debate.

Sparc

142

Sparc Why don’t you examine this thread.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=123346&perpage=50&pagenumber=1

Somebody horrifically murdered two innocent children. The reaction of the posters, save for one or two at best, was one of revulsion, and the desire for the murderer to rot in the 9th circle of hell, if not for actual execution. IMHO, this is generally the human reaction to the murder of children, but I guess YMMV.

But yet, when it comes to suicide bombing of Israeli children, the reaction of some on this board quickly devolves into “understanding.”

If you can explain the difference between the two scenarios to stupid-ass me, I’d greatly appreciate it. Especially if you lose the C-style condescenion and arrogance, it’s unbecoming.

143

milroyj,

I suspect and hope that in normal circumstances the reaction by any close to sane person would be revulsion and outrage at each account of suicide bombing. I surmise most people posting here belong well within the ‘remotely sane at most mildly emotionally disturbed’ quartile.

To express that outrage is one thing. To examine the causes and effects of a complex conflict between two groups of people that leaves a larger than comfortable portion of a population behaving in the opposite way to the norm described in my first paragraph is another.

To be clear; examining and trying to understand the insanity that is obviously prevailing at the moment in Israel is not like supporting it and it does not exclude expressing outrage at it in the same time.

Yes I am being condescending and arrogant. That’s how I am and I like myself that way. I think I can be humble, understanding, friendly and caring as well, but maybe that doesn’t work in a black and white world, eh? Beyond that I have had it up to my nostrils being accused of supporting terrorists while only trying to insert some measure of nuance in the debate, even when I am not being arrogant and condescending. I am fed up with arguing this issue when the counter arguments always amount to; “You’re wrong! Understanding the basis and origins of terror is like supporting terrorism. It’s just bad and nothing else” without one single coherent or well based line of thought as support.

If you find my communication and that of others dragged into this by your reference too vitriolic and hard to swallow;

Read what tomndebb, and Tamerlane amongst others have said on the matter. (try searching their name in combo with ‘understanding’ and ‘terrorist’). Tamerlane will obviously also be a solid source for understanding something little about Arabic cultures and history beyond what washes through the CNN white-noise and agitprop one liners.

If you want a mostly balanced view on Israel that might agree somewhat with your opinion read some posts on the conflict by DSeid or pldennison.

Should you desire to inform yourself about the errors and absolute idiocy of argumentum ad populum and the inherent problems of intolerance it leads to…well the board is full of helpful pointers on that one.

Sparc

144

Yeah, and an appropriate reaction. I am the LAST person to advocate soft treatment/social reports/“mitigating circumstances” of offenders.

IF however we can take a step back and look for the patterns of offence, the causes of it, then maybe we can prevent it. We now know that abuse is a vicious cycle - those abused become abusers. Because of this, we seek to break that cycle. We know that drug addicts will mug and rob to get money, eg. It’s not about saying what they do is OK, but understanding the motivation behind it, so we can at least work to prevent others from committing such offences.

The problem is that the tactics of non-understanding re the Palestinians is not only failing to stop the violence, it is making it worse. No one is saying “yeah, give them a medal” - but what they are saying is something is driving these people to act the way they do. You can fight bloodshed with bloodshed (arguably sometimes it may be necessary) but undoubtedly there will be greater loss of life/mass slaughter all round. If it’s possible to find a quicker, more efficient, more intelligent solution, then for god’s sake - and for the sake of the lives of innocent Palestinians and Israelis - let’s do that.

Demonising an obviously oppressed nation just doesn’t cut ice any more. Outside the US, too many nations are waking up to the fact that the Palestinians are victims too, not just the Israelis.

145

istara,

Your argument reeks of left wing softhearted idealism. That you can be so naive as to think that anything less than the death penalty liberally applied to all and sundry that just might support or could be suspected of carrying out terrorist acts in the future is just not a viable stand.

Your worldview seems deeply influenced by flawed conclusions regarding the mistakes of past atrocities against humanity and the absurd idea of measured thinking, intelligence and restraint.

Typical European socialist liberal crap if you ask me.

I say an eye for an eye and maybe those pesky Muslims will see the error in their ways.

Sacasm aside; To be fair I think that there is a significant portion of the US which is waking up to the need for a balanced solution in the Middle East as well, although GWB’s latest proposal to run rigged elections amongst the Palestinians looks a lot like leaning way south of the shadow cast by Sharon.

Sparc

146

Heh,

The palestinians are a state-less, army-less group of civilians who are ‘fighting’ against a large military power with nuclear capability. More specifically, the United States is funding the Israeli cause by funding this atrocity.

  • Explosive Brian
147

Well, now, your bias is showing once again. The insanity in Israel? The insanity is coming from Palestine, or the Occupied Territories, or whatever the politically correct term is today.

But that brings up another point. You are apparently trying to devise a modified “insanity defense” for the suicide bombers. Insanity is considered not knowing right from wrong. As poor and oppressed as the P’s are, are you really saying they don’t know right from wrong? Maybe the individual P suicide bombers don’t, because hatred is all they have been taught, and is all that they know. But someone is giving them the bombs, and the wherewithall to carry out these attacks, and surely they know the difference.

**

If you want to be proud of negative charcacter traits, go for it, but it doesn’t make people think well of you.

**

Ok, say we all agree that “understanding the basis and origins of terror” is a good thing. What do we do with that bit of information? Should Israel not go after Palestinian murderers, like those who are actively planning homicide bombings? or like that guy they killed who was the one largely responsible for providing said bombs? Ok sure, now we understand, now what?

Sorry about the coding/double post

148

[quote[The insanity in Israel?[/quote]

Don’t you think that it’s absolute and total idiocy to accuse me of bias because I happen to know my geography.

As for the rest I’ve replied too many times to bother, search my posts.

149

Lets not forget that Israel was essentially brought into being by the Zionist movement, which at the time could have been labelled terrorists.

While the suicide bombings can’t be justified in the context of the society we’re accustomed to, I can’t honestly say if I was in the position of a suicide bomber, I wouldn’t do the same thing - if I’d had my water supply cut off, my house bulldozed and then been herded into some sort of “camp”, I don’t think there’s a whole lot that I wouldn’t do.

The fact is, people do not just blow themselves up for no reason. I find it very hard to believe that these suicide bombings are meant to destroy Israel and wipe all Jews off the face of the earth.

Sometimes people hate eachother for no real reason. But when you look at a people like the Jews who have managed to piss off (to put it very mildly) nearly every single culture they’ve come into contact with over the last few thousand years… and without using all the cute, innocent, defenceless jewish children, kittens, teddy bears, and maybe those furry monkey things that have died over the years as an excuse to label this as anti-semitism, you have to start wondering if there isn’t a reason behind this hatred.

150

Eh? Since this is your first post here and I can’t know how long you’ve lurked around or not I’ll restrain myself.

You might want to know that a statement such as yours is likely to engender first some requests for cites towards the claims you make and second quite a few cases of well deserved rebuke as it would seem that most if not all of it is based on sheer opinion. That the same opinion expresses some amount of bias that could be construed as highly offensive, despite your caveat of not wanting to be labeled as an anti-Semite doesn’t make it any better.

So, Exodus could you please provide cites for the following claims:

[ol]
[li]People of Jewish creed go out of their way to piss people off[/li][li]This is an inherent aspect of the Jewish religion that has been rampant within it for thousands of years[/li][li]The main argument against anti-Semitism is Sic! the ‘cuteness’ of its victims.[/ol][/li]
If you can’t do that (which in fact you won’t be able to) I would suggest that a retraction would be in place.

The ascertains you make and the implications they have leave me wondering what the point of your post was.

Sparc

151

I oppose killing of people, but understand why the Palestinians continue to do so, apparently this is a mortal sin (damn my liberal soul, why don’t i just kill them all?). If this was 1937, I’d be opposed to the Irgun Zvai Leumi as well. As that group was less of a result of years of immediate oppression by a larger force and more of a desire to create a jewish state where Isreal and Jordan are, i’d probably be less inclined to care about their nonsense, plus Jews were being persucuted far worse in other countries at the time (i’ll avoid mentioning the countries). But insanity is hardly unique to Palestine

(someone please correct me if i am missed something about Irgun Zvai Leumi, they seemed to just be yet another resistance fighter group that ran around killing people)

152

Ask and you shall recieve.

Guerilla warfare: Surprise attacks against military targets. The Irgun mainly targeted British military targets in what they considered a war against Engalnd’s control of Palestine and the exclusion of Jewish refuges from the Holocaust … turning boats back to return to certain death. Dier Yassin seems to have been an exception, that seems to have been an episode of out and out terrorism (to this day the full story is still unclear). The bombing of the King David Hotel was targetting the wing which served as the British military headquarters; not really terrorism, more of a guerilla attack. I would guess that a few other true exceptions existed but I am not aware of them. Generally they were not attempting to instill extreme fear in a broad civilian population in order to achieve their goals … and not just running around killing people. They had specific military objectives.

Now Lekhi was a jewish terrorist organization. Held up banks, assasinated officials … but still not primarily targetting of groups of civilians.

The third big group in those early days was the Haganah. Anti-terror. Became the Israeli army.

BTW, prominent Jewish voices of the day opposed Lekhi and the Irgun as well … most famously Israel’s first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion. And as a Jewish leader he fought with them to shut them down, loudly condemned what he believed to be the atrocity of Dier Yassin.

If only the Arabs had a Ben-Gurion.
Or even if they fought a guerilla war, like the Irgun did, instead of terror attacks.
Then we could get the sides talking again.

153

Hi

I’m new to the board, joined up as soon as I found it was a forum where it seems permissible to use facts and logic to discuss issues. I’d assumed that was outlawed on the net but we live and learn!

Just to lose my board cherry can I just add my 2 pence worth. I am good friends with a diaspora Palestinian academic whose research specialism is the impact of violence on the development of children. Northern Ireland, South Africa and Palestine are, for obvious reasons, of particular relevance to her.

Like me, she believes it is never acceptable, under any circumstances, to target civilians and we both find suicide bombing a totally repellant tactic. Unfortunately her research shows that decade after decade of the oppression and grinding hopeless poverty in the refugee camps produces generations of chldren who are so damaged they see the most awful violence as normal and provide an endless supply of future bombers like a swamp producing malaria mosquitoes.

You can kill as many mosquitoes as you want but unless you drain the swamp more and more will come.

This in no way at all morally justifies suicide bombers, it just illustrates the sheer hopelessness of trying to solve the problem with force and repression alone. young people are also so traumatised they are unable to respond to rational carrot and stick, you stop and we’ll think about talking approach.

lord knows what that leaves, its such a bleak and terrible picture and i’m not trying to draw any inferences from it.

As a side note - my friend is, like, I’m told, most diaspora Palestinians in the West, in favour of an Oslo based solution but when she sees her life-savings, in the form of her flat, destroyed by tank fire because it happens to be near a Security barracks and receives news that her neighbour’s 8 year old boy has been shot dead on his way to school or a former class-mate was killed when a helicopter fired a missile at a passing car containing an alleged terrorist, (all of which happened within a week), even she can lapse into that complete despair that leads to total hatred.

Somebody has to break the cycle of violence but I don’t know how. I’d say it is up to the democratic occupying state (only on the grounds that I expect better behaviour from a democracy than Arafat’s cabal of bandit thugs) but faced with suicide bombers I can understand why that is not going to happen and why Israel has to try anything to stem the flow of bombers.

154

Excellent analogy, but:

I think you just contradicted yourself here: more strong-arm tactics is just going to enlarge the swamp, isn’t it?

155

Yes, if I was proffering solutions, you would be right. That is the tragedy of the situation in my eyes- short term solutions to the bomber problem just make things worse in the long term and there’s an endless supply of potential bombers and terrorists too psychologically scarred for non-violent resistance or probably even any compromise Israel would accept. Apologies if I did not express myself clearly, I have no answers.

156

Mandos was quoting some bulletin “Camera Update”
http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/halabaya.html that told among other things:
“In the midst of violent disturbances that have shaken the Middle East, how did the New York Times cover this appalling call to the mass murder of Jews by a PA religious leader? By cover it up.”

Further this “Camera Update” wrote:
“By failing to inform readers, by failing to force the issue to the forefront of public discourse, the “newspaper of record” also failed the millions of Jews who would soon die in the crematoria of Europe.

Had the Times not shirked its duty in the 1930’s and 40’s, millions might have been saved. Apparently old habits die hard.” (End of quote from Camera Update)

So Hitler and New York Times are to blame!

“…if the occupation instantly stopped, if Israel became passive, if they sat down and took no action against the Palestinians, they would be destroyed. Why?
Because the brainwashed Palestinians would see it as an opportunity to “drive the Jews into the sea.”

Well, it seem to me that there is brainwashed people all over the world… :rolleyes:

Mandos wrote:
about facts from Camera Update
“Here it is suggested that every single Jew is a terrorist and should be killed, every Jew in America as well as Israel. Now, has there been a calling on the Israeli side to kill every single Palestinian?”

My answer:
"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return"
David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar’s Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel… Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours."
Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces

  • Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

"If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country."
David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either.
Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!’"
Yitzhak Rabin leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

Dear reader!
As You can see, the sowing of wrath begun very early, the fertelizer (the Israelian and Palestinian bodies, the lack of human rights etc.) are giving “fruits” and now it is harvest time.

If You want more “famous wisdoms”…, just whistle.

Mandos wrote:
“The actions of Martin Luther King Jr. prove this. He could have led a violent movement against the oppressors of African Americans. He did not.”

Yeah, when Kennedy was bulldozering in Mississippi, he thought: “What the heck, too much work…, let them march and sing.”
Or maybe the situation was not like that.
Shalom-Sharon a new Kennedy?

Mandos wrote in the next post:
“In truth, what we may be dealing with is the product of propaganda.
Media is controlled by the Palestinian Authority, and certain statements make their way through that encourage the hatred of, not just Israeli Jews, but all Jews.
Now, I don’t know what sort of effect such statements are having, but if the propaganda succeeds, once finished with Israel, the terrorists will pursue Jews everywhere, or try to.
We seem to always ignore the propaganda and think that the sole cause is Palestinian desperation.
I think that propaganda is may be part of it.”

My comment:
Heh, heh, You have some humour! ;j

Tygr wrote:
“I’m sorry, but evil does not deserve to be “understood”. It deserves to be stopped.

There is a distinct black and white with regard to the slaughter of innocents.
Attempting to “understand” this depth of evil only leads to a “shades of grey” attitude and degrees of legitimizing said evil. There is no place for understanding of the killing of innocents.”

I fully agree:
The Palestinians should concentrate on military targets.
There is a war going on.

Milroj wrote:
Sparc Why don’t you examine this thread.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...50&pagenumber=1

(The CNN story begins:)
SOUTHFIELD, Michigan (AP) – A mother accused of leaving her children to die inside her sweltering car while she went to have her hair done has been charged with first-degree murder.

My comment:
So what has this to do with the Palestine? :eek:

Read BBC from today.
Look at the photos where a tank is killing children.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_2102000/2102081.stm
Read the text. Think!

I just want to ask, What is the difference between a suicide bomber that kills civilians and an Israeli solidier killing civilians?
I condemd both, but if they were killing military persons, I do not.
There is a war going on.

Milroj wrote about this CNN news:

“Somebody horrifically murdered two innocent children. The reaction of the posters, save for one or two at best, was one of revulsion, and the desire for the murderer to rot in the 9th circle of hell, if not for actual execution. IMHO, this is generally the human reaction to the murder of children, but I guess YMMV.

But yet, when it comes to suicide bombing of Israeli children, the reaction of some on this board quickly devolves into “understanding.”

If you can explain the difference between the two scenarios to stupid-ass me, I’d greatly appreciate it.” (End of quote)

I condemd all killings, even if some mother in USA does it, also killing Israelian children and Palestinian children.
Also the fact that every 4th second, mostly a child, is dying because of lack of food.
Is this enough?

Exodus wrote:
“While the suicide bombings can’t be justified in the context of the society we’re accustomed to, I can’t honestly say if I was in the position of a suicide bomber, I wouldn’t do the same thing - if I’d had my water supply cut off, my house bulldozed and then been herded into some sort of “camp”, I don’t think there’s a whole lot that I wouldn’t do.

The fact is, people do not just blow themselves up for no reason. I find it very hard to believe that these suicide bombings are meant to destroy Israel and wipe all Jews off the face of the earth.”

I agree. I would kill enemy military with any means, if my country would be attacked and occupied.

DSeid wrote:
“Guerilla warfare: Surprise attacks against military targets. The Irgun mainly targeted British military targets in what they considered a war against Engalnd’s control of Palestine and the exclusion of Jewish refuges from the Holocaust … turning boats back to return to certain death.”

and further
“BTW, prominent Jewish voices of the day opposed Lekhi and the Irgun as well … most famously Israel’s first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion. And as a Jewish leader he fought with them to shut them down, loudly condemned what he believed to be the atrocity of Dier Yassin.

If only the Arabs had a Ben-Gurion.

Or even if they fought a guerilla war, like the Irgun did, instead of terror attacks. Then we could get the sides talking again.”
(End of quote, bold and underline mine).

My answer (again):
I justify (suicide) bombers if the hit solemnly military targets.
If You are against (suicide) bombers, who is hitting military targets, maybe we could together collect some money, so that the Palestinians could buy some weapons?:
bazookas, arms needed for snipers = putting out tanks, shooting officers = totally military targets.

I send them money anyhow.
But I certainly do not hope the Palestinians finds a Ben-Gurion among themselves.
I hope they can be more human-thinking than these texts here underneath:

"We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai."

David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff.
From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte,
New York 1978.

nor Golda:

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969

nor these other guys:

"May the Holy Name visit retribution on the Arabs’ heads, and cause their seed to be lost, and annihilate them, and cause them to be vanquished and cause them to be cast from the world. It is forbidden to be merciful to them, you must give them missiles, with relish - annihilate them. Evil ones, damnable ones."
- Ultra-Orthodox Shas Party spiritual leader Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, in a sermon discussing Passover and God’s wrath at Israel’s enemies, 8 April 2001.
Some months ago he distinguished himself by describing Arabs as “snakes” whom “God regrets having created”. :smack:

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk,
‘Begin and the “Beasts”’, New Statesman, 25 June 1982

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
Israel Koenig, “The Koenig Memorandum”

Rabin’s description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet.
"We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters"
Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion’s special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960.
From “The Arabs in Israel” by Sabri Jiryas.

The other alternative is, than that the Palestinian founds a new Ben Gurion:

  • Israel goes behind its borders (UN-boarders)

  • UN and American troops “occupies” Palestine and gives the needed schooling for the police-forces, army etc., and goes away when they are not anymore needed. If some part, one or another, attacks, the International troops comes back.

  • Bush push the next war-budget meant for the Israelian army into Palestinian schools etc.

  • Israel pays for the stolen earth and other property to the Palestinians.

  • The Palestinians can return to Israel, given full rights to schooling, moving inside the country, get the same payment for the same job, etc, normal democratic rights.

  • Etc. etc.

  • Henry does not send weapons, just money, to the Palestinians. :rolleyes:

157

Which is all the more why they need leadership with a vision for peace.

Henry, are you disputing that Ben-Gurion fought with Irgun and Lekhi?

Upset that while at war a leader dreams of a victory overwhelming enough to prevent future attacks?

Disturbed that Golda Meir dared to state the obvious, that there was no organized Palestinian entity to deal with in 1969?

Bothered that rhetoric can get over the top and that Israel has freedom of speech? And that hate is an infectious disease during times of conflict?

Sure, Ben-Gurion was a Zionist and desired a sizable Jewish plurality in a Jewish state. He shed no tears over the flight of Arabs from the portion of the Palestinian Mandate that was to become Israel. He did not want them to return, seeing in that a threat to the concept of a secular Jewish state. He was no saint. I’ve yet to meet a saint. (He also wasn’t crazy about all the Arab Jews fleeing into Israel from atrocities with all of their properties stolen from them. He thought them less civilized than European Jewery.) But he was a pragmatic leader with a vision and a sense of morality.

The Palestinians could do a lot worse than a leader who was willing to make these kinds of statements:

Can the Palestinian side find such practical leadership? Well, I again defer to Ben-Gurion,

158

Heh, I’ve been “lurking” for about the amount of time it took me to read this thread :slight_smile:

I think that your requests 1 and 2 can be grouped together - and I’ll address them now.

**People of Jewish creed go out of their way to piss people off and;
This is an inherent aspect of the Jewish religion that has been rampant within it for thousands of years **

Where do I start? Perhaps first I’ll go into the Hebrew language and see what I can dig up.

Jewish word for Gentile woman is the Yiddish word shiksa - meaning “whore,” from the Hebrew root, sheigetz (“abomination”). It also pointed out that a little Gentile girl is called shikselke, meaning “little female abomination.”

Bermant, C. (1991). Some Carefully And Carelessly Chosen Words, Jewish Chronicle. May 17

Their main religious text, the Talmud - being an aspect of the Jewish religion for thousands of years, also addresses [2]:

Only Jews are human. [Gentiles] are animals. (Baba Mezia 114a-114b.)
[Gentiles] prefer sex with cows. (Abodah Zarah 22a-22b.)
Even the best of the [Gentiles] should be killed. (Babylonian Talmud)
Balaam [Jesus] is raised from the dead and being punished in boiling hot semen. Those who mock the words of the Jewish sages and sin against Israel are boiled in hot excrement. (57a Gittin)

If you’re game enough, go to your local library, find one of these books, and read the rest of it.

Talmud, Sanhedrin (1935). Soncino Edition
Talmud, Baba Kamma. (1935). Soncino Edition
Talmud, Yebamoth. (1936). Soncino Edition

But beware:

A heathen [Gentile] who pries into the Torah [and other Jewish Scriptures] is condemned to death, for it is written, it is our inheritance, not theirs. (Sanhedrin 59a)

To further address point 1, take some simple logic (that one people rarely hates another for no reason at all) and apply it to Jewish History, current trends in America and anti-semitism in the rest of the world.

expulsions of entire Jewish communities become frequent events. In 1290, all Jews are expelled from England - about 16,000 people. Communities in England are again established only in the 17th century. In 1306, Jews are also expelled from France.
http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/beyond-the-pale/english/16.html

Jews in Russia:

“One of the reasons of the present catastrophic conditions of the country, mass impoverishment and dying out of its population,” Zyuganov insisted, was the “Zionization of the government authorities.” He claimed these officials were ignoring “the aggressive, destructive role of Zionist capital in ruining Russia’s economy and plundering her property owned by all.”
Source: Washington Post, December 25, 1998.

All pressures on Soviet Jews to forgo their identity do not have the effect the authorities aim for. As Jewish cultural and religious life in the Soviet Union has become practically impossible, and even complete assimilation is no guarantee against discrimination, some Jews start to demand openly the right to emigrate to Israel.
http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/beyond-the-pale/english/65.html

The distinction between “the people” or “the nation” and those who are felt not to belong to it, is used more generally to stigmatize everything as “Jewish” that is seen as negative or undesirable. For many, a “Jew” becomes the epitome of weakness, bad character and ugly appearance - the negative mirror image of all the positive characteristics embodied in the people or nation.
http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/beyond-the-pale/english/23.html

Jews in India:

Jewish settlers came from the Middle East and North Africa. Jews settled in different areas – from Kashmir in the north, to Cochin in the south, Calcutta in the east and Bombay (renamed Mumbai) in the west. By the late 18th century, Bombay became the largest Jewish community in India. Today only a few thousand remain in India - most having migrated to Israel, England, USA, and Australia
http://www.the-south-asian.com/Jews%20of%20India-Intro.htm

Jews in Africa:

Despite their despised, exile, or degredado (convict) status, the small number of Europeans and Jews residing in Cape Verde were allowed to engage in trade, as long as they did not compete severely with the Portuguese trading monopolies.
http://www.saudades.org/jewscapev.html

Jews in the USA:

The overall level of anti-Semitism among African-Americans (34%) compares to 37% in 1992. This very slight decline in acceptance of anti-Jewish stereotypes has been significantly slower among blacks than among whites, expanding the racial gap in attitudes toward Jews in 1998.
Anti-Semitism and Prejudice in America: Highlights from an ADL Survey, November 1998

Jews in surrounding countries today:

Algeria:
1948 Jewish Population: 140,000
2000: Less than 100

Egypt:
1948 Jewish Population: 75,000
2000: 200

Iraq:
1948 Jewish Population: 150,000
2000: Approximately 100

Source: Page 2 of this thread (more statistics and cites there, I’m not going to copy-paste all of them here).

Simple logic dictates that the Jews as a race have done something to piss all of these people off. The talmud and torah are rife with hateful passages about other people and their native language makes offensive references to other peoples. If I were to call all Jewish women “Jew whores”, would that not be going out of my way to piss them off? I think it would.

The main argument against anti-Semitism is Sic! the ‘cuteness’ of its victims.

Perhaps using some comprehension skills (which I know you have, from your other posts) would be in order. I’ll explain it to you now anyway though. It was meant as a sarcastic reference to the amount of times that blowing up Jewish children has been used to demonize suicide bombers and the Palestinian leadership while completely disregarding stories like this:

Gaza shooting

Palestinians say machine-gun fire from an Israeli tank in the Gaza Strip killed a 44-year old woman and her two-year-old daughter while they were travelling in a taxi on Saturday.

The funerals heard cries for revenge

Another passenger in the taxi said the car came under fire just after passing the Netzarim junction near a Jewish settlement that is heavily guarded by the army.

According to one unconfirmed report, the Israeli army says it is checking reports that its troops had opened fire on “suspicious figures” in the area.

Thousands of Palestinians called for revenge at the funeral of the dead woman and her daughter.

Israeli troops have denied reports that a Palestinian man was also shot dead outside the south Gaza town of Khan Yunis.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_2104000/2104062.stm

throughout this thread, and by people in general. It was not intended as an argument for anti-semitism (and yes, that is how you spell it, so the “sic” isn’t really needed there).

The meaning of the post (seeing as you seem to need this explained as well) was to express my opinions on the justification of suicide bombings and that part of the post was meant to support that justification by helping to explain why organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah want to destroy Israel, not just gain a permanent Palestinian state.

Kwis.

159

Yawn. If most of your premise weren’t lifted nearly word-for-word out off of David Duke’s website, I may actually pay attention.

OK, so we pissed off the Arab world in 1948 with the foundation of Israel, and that gave the Arab world free license to expel their entire Jewish populations. Even though many of those Jewish populations had been living there for upwards of a thousand years, in peace. They were really, really pissed off at the foundation of Israel and totally not out of line in confiscating the property of those many thousands of Jews. I understand.

But what did we do to the Germans in 1933 to get them so pissed off that they would want to kill 6 million of us? I’m waiting with bated breath for an answer.

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Wow. And you had to bold that too… :rolleyes:

Please provide evidence that Jews go out of their way to piss people off…

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With lies, falsehood and deceit…

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First of all “shiksa” does NOT mean “whore.” It does, however, mean “something disgusting.”

In any event, the terms is hundreds of years old. People (including Jews) have had derogatory terms for thousands of years. Please show evidence that a) Jews continue to use this term today in vast droves and that b) no one else during the time that Jews used “shiksa” and “sheygetz” never used any other racial/ethnic epithets.

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These “quotes” are all either misquotes, taken grossly out of context or complete fabrications. I shouldn’t even waste the time to deal with you, but, against my better judgement, I’ll do so.

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The passage has to do with ritual contamination from a corpse. It does NOT state that non-Jews aren’t humans. Indeed, the Tosefos on Sanhedrin 59a points out many times where non-Jews are called human.

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You’re taking a comment about a specific time/place and extending it to all places/times.

The Talmud talks about some Rabbis who witnessed that in certain places, Romans were wont to engage in beastiality. As such, a Jew should not leave his animal in such a place, since he might be indirectly facilitating beastiality. It in no way means that all Gentiles at all times prefer sex with cows.

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It does not say this.
The Babylonian Talmud consists of many books. If you cannot give me a book/page, please don’t quote.

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The quote is about Baalam. Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the text. You inserted his name in parenthasis.

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The quote is correct, but distorted. There is no death penalty for a non-Jew studying the Torah. However, we do believe that the Torah was given to the Jews and, as such, should only be studied by Jews.

By the way, you didn’t give any quotes from Yebamoth…

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Ah yes… blame the victim…

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Your point? Do you really contend that baseless hatred has never existed in the world?

[snip]

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Jews are not a race. Get your facts straight.

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No. Only when you distort and falsify it.

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And your native language has never had such terms?

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But by calling us hate-mongers we should love you?

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Oh, I see. The only reason anyone would cry if I was murdered tomorrow is because I’m ‘cute?’

Do me a favor, willya? Don’t quote Jewish sources unless you have the slightest clue what you’re talking about?

Zev Steinhardt