Palestinian scum

[Weirddave]

This is my likely last post here, because you’re just not worth arguing with. You are worse than any fundie that has ever graced this board because you have absolutely made up your mind, Marxism is your religion, and like good fundies everwhere you twist and distort fact until they are unrecognizeable because you start with a conclusion and everything has to be made to fit that conclusion; if it dosen’t, why, that might cause you to question your blind faith in Communist dogma. I’ll just point out one more thing: The part of your Nazi/Zionist conspiracy that you’ve omitted is what exactly the original final solution was. Originally, Nazi’s simply wanted all Jews exiled from Germany, and if it was to a Jewish state, that was fine with them. Naturally this would atract the interest of Zionists who wanted to found a Jewish state, after all, Jews are needed to populate it, right? When this solution proved unworkable (from a German POV, there simply wasn’t any place for the Jews to emmigrate to), the final solution morphed into the butchery that was the holocaust.

Here’s one final thing for you to chew on. If there had been an Israel in the mid 1930s (if the evil Zionists had had their evil way, in other words), it is likely the holocaust (as we know it)would never have happened, because the Jews in Germany would have been (forcibly) relocated there. That’s upwards of 6 million people who would not have died horribly, if only the evil Zionists’ evil plans had come to their evil fruition 12 or 13 years earlier.

[Olentzero]

@GaWd

Right, wrong or indifferent, the UN and Britain hased out a deal. It was put to a vote and Israel was born. THis isn’t Israel’s fault, the “Zionists” fault, and this doesn’t excuse any action on the ragtag group of Palestinian terrorists are taking.

Yes, it’s awfully convenient to ignore the past. That way you can just issue a blanket condemnation of the Palestinians without understanding why they’re fighting in the first place. Who’s blind to history here?

You’re providing quotes from propaganda books.

So M de Reynier is lying?

You’re taking out of context quotations from a book Begin wrote.

What is the proper context, then?

You’re getting slapped around with the data that is contained within your cites(or did you miss Shayna’s post???)

No, I read Shayna’s post and the link she provided. It talks about the whole of the territory of the British Mandate, whereas I’ve been talking about the territory known as Palestine and now called Israel. Apples and oranges.

Yes, you’re ignoring facts and blaming the Israelis. Yes, you’re history is all fucked up as other posters have pointed out.

How is my analysis incorrect? I’ve seen plenty of statements that it is, and a post or two whose responses miss the point of my inquiries entirely.

Weirddave, it’s a pity that was your last post because I’d dearly love to see you back that completely absurd claim up.

[Shayna]

@Olentzero

I read Shayna’s post and the link she provided.

Again, rich! That was a link that YOU PROVIDED. YOUR link. YOURS.

Asshole.

It talks about the whole of the territory of the British Mandate, whereas I’ve been talking about the territory known as Palestine and now called Israel. Apples and oranges.

LIAR. The link is titled, A BRIEF HISTORY OF PALESTINE. Titled that.

TITLED.

PALESTINE.

YOUR CITE.

How is my analysis incorrect?

Asked and answered, but it’s no wonder you still don’t understand, as you continue to IGNORE what doesn’t fit into your hateful, twisted, lying viewpoint.

QUIT LYING

Some of us here can actually read, so it serves no purpose. Really. Stop it.

[Weirddave]

@Olentzero

Weirddave, it’s a pity that was your last post because I’d dearly love to see you back that completely absurd claim up.

One more to simply ask: How? What I posted (about Jews being exiled) was suposition, but I think it’s been backed up with enough historical facts in this thread to support it. Or are you asking for cites that exile was the Nazi’s first choice for the final solution? If you are, there is more than enough documentaion to support that, and I know you know it.

Jeff, grow, THINK! I know you are smart enough to do it, if you’d only stop trying to make the facts fit a preordained conclusion, and follow those facts where they actually go.

[duffer]

@Olentzero

:rolleyes: Fine. Whatever. I just want to see proof that the indigenous Muslim population of the territory known as Palestine, today comprising the territory of the state of Israel, engaged in massacres of the Jewish population of that same territory over the span of centuries

Huh, and here I thought the Isrealites were there 5,000 years ago. My bad. Guess I didn’t take your class in college (thank God). So where did the Jews come from, anyway? Oh, that’s right. They were driven from their Homeland by Arabs and fled to Europe. Then, unfortunately, they met a little resistance in Germany. Just a small inconvenience. They were asked to leave. Oh, wait…

So in the aftermath of saving a race of people (other than the French, again )the Allies (U.K. France, U.S.A., Norw…fuck, probably lost on you by now) the World Court decided to return the Jews to the original homeland. Did Arabs get screwed? Not in IMO. Though I can see why they’re pissed given the current “leadership” There isn’t a shortage of land for the relative population. At the same time, it wasn’t America the dictated it.. The Arabs like to be pissed at America for the Jews being in their land. Yet they forget that it was a "multi-lateral"decision to do so.

Olentzero is obviously a racist skinhead. Read the link (short) and pay particular attention to the last paragraph.

[duffer]

Heh, forgot the link. (Still helps my case I’m not the asshole-king some want me to be) :smack:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4880432/

[FinnAgain]

Let us assume that each and every single negative thing said about Israel/The Jews/the Zionists by anybody whatsoever was true. They eat babies. They tore the fuck out of the entire middle east one wild weekend and now all the Arabs hate them. They’re warmongering dangerous pirates of the high seas. Whatever.

Even if that was the case.

Anybody who deliberately looked for the maximum number of Israeli civilians to murder would be scum .

The current tactics of the Intifada are designed to deliberately look for the maximum number of Israeli civilians to murder

Thus, in its current incarnation the Intifada, due to its choice of tactics, is scum.

QED.

[Sevastopol]

I don’t believe the Intifada is a uniform movement, tied to any one particular tactic. Hamas arguably, but has not the PLO * recognised *the right of Israel to exist ?

Further I don’t agree that Finn Again is reasoning correctly. For example consider if we view the Israelis as illegal occupiers, particularly the settlers and this is a reasonable viewpoint. Then are not the Palestinians the lawful authority. The penalty they exact for illegal occupation is theirs to determine, the justice of which is not to be argued outside their own territory. If it is summary execution, so be it.

This isn’t an irrefutable argument by any means, or even one I necessarily support. I’ve put it up to show that the “QED” position is not as strong as it is represented. The moral position is ambiguous in almost every respect.

[Necro_Romancer]

I don’t believe the Intifada is a uniform movement, tied to any one particular tactic. Hamas arguably, but has not the PLO recognised the right of Israel to exist ?

Arafat has said that in the past, but:

The Involvement of Arafat, PA Senior Officials and Apparatuses in Terrorism against Israel, Corruption and Crime.

Arafat wants Hamas to join the PLO. Another link.

[Olentzero]

@Weirddave

Here’s one final thing for you to chew on. If there had been an Israel in the mid 1930s (if the evil Zionists had had their evil way, in other words), it is likely the holocaust (as we know it)would never have happened, because the Jews in Germany would have been (forcibly) relocated there. That’s upwards of 6 million people who would not have died horribly, if only the evil Zionists’ evil plans had come to their evil fruition 12 or 13 years earlier.

OK, firstly, Dave, Jews weren’t the only ones rounded up into camps - Communists, gypsies, and homosexuals perished in them as well. (Remember, this is where the pink triangle came from.) Had the Zionists realized their dream of Israel inthe 1930s, would the Holocaust have been avoided for those others as well?

Secondly, who had the mandate for Palestine in the 1930s? Britain. Is Britain therefore somehow implicitly responsible for the Holocaust because they waited until 1948 to withdraw? I don’t think anyone here would dare to make that claim.

duffer, as a matter of fact I’ve heard of Billy Roper. I’ve seen him face to face - because I was counterdemonstrating to shout him down when he and his pack of hate-spewing ratbags tried to picket the German embassy in support of a fellow racist doing time for murder, among other things, in Germany. I counterdemonstrated when the neo-Nazis were out demonstrating on the lawn of the Capitol. I was out and marching in 1998 when the World Church of the Creator threatened to march on the White House - and, fortunately, failed to show.

Anyone who drives a plane into a building to kill anyone, Jewish or not, is NOT all right by me. I don’t support, condone, wink at, or even smile quietly when I think of, terrorism. It seems to me I’ve said so in this very thread, many times, but it’s being conveniently ignored so that drive-by posters like you can call me racist.

Now, having said that, do you have any proof that the Jews were driven out of Israel by Arabs, and when?

Shayna, your post that attempted to answer my assertions about a “land grab” talked about the square mileage of the entire British Mandate, and only in passing about the square mileage of the Palestinian portion. I have, throughout, been talking only about the UN partition of Palestine and its division between the Jewish and Arab population. And your longer cite doesn’t attempt to answer the question of why you and others feel Britain and the UN had more of a right to dispose of the land as they saw fit as opposed to the people who actually lived there.

[Tabby_Cat]

@Olentzero

Shayna, your post that attempted to answer my assertions about a “land grab” talked about the square mileage of the entire British Mandate, and only in passing about the square mileage of the Palestinian portion. I have, throughout, been talking only about the UN partition of Palestine and its division between the Jewish and Arab population. And your longer cite doesn’t attempt to answer the question of why you and others feel Britain and the UN had more of a right to dispose of the land as they saw fit as opposed to the people who actually lived there.

This is actualy a pretty legitimate question. The answer is, the British obtained sovereignty over the land by means of conquest, and the Turks surrendered the sovereignty over the land to the British in the 1920s. Therefore, the property rights over the land was allowed to the “owners” of the land from the British. Previously, they were held from the Turkish government.

Just as your government has the ability to legislate over what you can do on the land you “own”, so did the British have the ability to legislate over the land. That said, it would still be somewhat immoral for them to simply take the land from the owners without compensation. However, they did not have to do so, as the land was abandoned. If land is abandoned, it reverts to state control. And so, the British had every right to dispose of the land as they wished.

Your argument that just because the people live there and “own” the land (from the government, I might add), that government should not be able to do anything to the land, or have any less right to dispose of it - false. All governments exercise sovereignty over land use, and even land ownership.

QED.

[kezami]

@sevastopol

I don’t believe the Intifada is a uniform movement, tied to any one particular tactic. Hamas arguably, but has not the PLO * recognised *the right of Israel to exist ?

not according to this cite

[gobear]

@duffer

Olentzero is obviously a racist skinhead. Read the link (short) and pay particular attention to the last paragraph.

He may be turning into a skinhead, but I don’t think yoiucan blame him for his genes. But ** as I said above, Olentzero is not in any way a racist.

[Olentzero]

Perhaps too little too late, but thank you, gobear.

[gobear]

Late? Go read post #204.

[Olentzero]

@Tabby_Cat

However, they did not have to do so, as the land was abandoned. If land is abandoned, it reverts to state control. And so, the British had every right to dispose of the land as they wished.

The problem is the land wasn’t abandoned. Up until 1947 there were 1 million Arabs living in the British Mandate of Palestine, and they owned (directly, mind you) 94% of the land.
Here is a scan of the UN map from 1945.
Here is the same map, with tablature of data from 1943.
Here, finally, is a tablature of data for Jewish land ownership as of 31 Dec 1945. You’ll note that the total area of Jewish-owned land seems to have dropped by ~500,000 dunums between 1943 and 1945, although admittedly there were a lot of unknowns factoring into the reckoning.

In any case, the first and second maps show that there was far more Arab-owned land than there was Jewish-owned and public land combined. I’d hardly call that abandoned.

gobear, I have read #204, and I’d rather thank you for “Olentzero is not a racist” than “Olentzero is not a racist, but…”

Oh, and Shayna - I have to admit the site you claimed I linked to didn’t seem at all familiar. Now I know why - I didn’t link to the page you provided at all. I linked to another page on that site about the freaking coinage of the British Mandate of Palestine to argue with lavenderlemon about the use of the word “Palestine” before 1960. It’s rather disingenuous of you to claim I don’t read the sources I cite when I didn’t even use the page you linked to as a cite in the first place, either in this thread or in the “Hamas” thread over in GD.

[GaWd]

Oh, and Shayna - I have to admit the site you claimed I linked to didn’t seem at all familiar. Now I know why - I didn’t link to the page you provided at all. I linked to another page on that site about the freaking coinage of the British Mandate of Palestine to argue with lavenderlemon about the use of the word “Palestine” before 1960. It’s rather disingenuous of you to claim I don’t read the sources I cite when I didn’t even use the page you linked to as a cite in the first place, either in this thread or in the “Hamas” thread over in GD.

So you’re saying that you’re only interested in part of the history of Palestine? In this case, British fucking currency and the use of the name Palestine? Read the website, slick. Absorb the history, ignore your crackpot interpretation of said history.

Shayna, honey. Please don’t waste any more time on Zero. He’s proving to be a stubborn ideological bigot who is a poor study of history-no matter how many times you show it to him. I think he gets wood every time you insult him, so it’s counter productive to even try to reason with him.

Sam

[Tabby_Cat]

@Olentzero

The problem is the land wasn’t abandoned. Up until 1947 there were 1 million Arabs living in the British Mandate of Palestine, and they owned (directly, mind you) 94% of the land.
Here is a scan of the UN map from 1945.
Here is the same map, with tablature of data from 1943.
Here, finally, is a tablature of data for Jewish land ownership as of 31 Dec 1945. You’ll note that the total area of Jewish-owned land seems to have dropped by ~500,000 dunums between 1943 and 1945, although admittedly there were a lot of unknowns factoring into the reckoning.

In any case, the first and second maps show that there was far more Arab-owned land than there was Jewish-owned and public land combined. I’d hardly call that abandoned.

You seem to be confusing the issues of sovereignty and ownership.

First of all, you cannot “directly” own land. From who? How do you claim this land is “yours”? Simply because you’ve been sitting on it the longest? By that token, I can own any land simply by sitting on it until it’s mine. Not true. Property rights in land do not work that way, and for the simple reason that it would be ludicrous.

@Olentzero

And your longer cite doesn’t attempt to answer the question of why you and others feel Britain and the UN had more of a right to dispose of the land as they saw fit as opposed to the people who actually lived there.

I was actually addressing this issue. The UN had the right to transfer sovereignty to the Israeli government because it had that from the British, who had that right from the Turks, whom they conquered, and the territory surrendered by the Turks.

Someone simply having property rights in land does not give them the right to decide who gets to have administrative power over it. By your logic, a person who owns land gets to vote, while a person that does not, does not.

You imply that the “Palestinians” (Well, not really, since they were all in British controlled territory at the time) owned the land, and that the British removed ownership (property rights) and gave it to Isreal. That didn’t happen. The land was abandoned by the Arabs, who became refugees in the agreed Arab portion, because of war or other causes (like joining the army against Jews), and therefore reverted to state control. Thus they obtained actual ownership and the right to actually dispose of the land, as in transfer ownership and such.

This is simlar to when you own land, and you die, and you have no heirs or will - the land reverts to the state.

Of course, not that anyone will read this in the Pit. But I had to point this out. Anyway, Property Law 105. All you people out there interested in this sort of thing, here it is. I hope I didn’t waste my electrons. ^^

[Shayna]

@GaWd

So you’re saying that you’re only interested in part of the history of Palestine? In this case, British fucking currency and the use of the name Palestine? Read the website, slick. Absorb the history, ignore your crackpot interpretation of said history.

Shayna, honey. Please don’t waste any more time on Zero. He’s proving to be a stubborn ideological bigot who is a poor study of history-no matter how many times you show it to him. I think he gets wood every time you insult him, so it’s counter productive to even try to reason with him.

Sam

You’re absolutely right on both counts, Sam. The lying pigfucker uses a cite to bolster his argument on the existence of “Palestine,” then wants to weasel out of accepting the history behind his argument that’s actually a part of the cite he referenced. If nothing else in this entire thread proves what a lying sack of shit he is, that certainly ought to make it clear enough.

So yeah, I’m done with this idiot. I just hate to see his idiotic contentions stand unchallenged because then 2 bad things happen – 1.) a casual reader might think that if it isn’t contradicted, it must be true (which is false, of course) and 2.) he will pull this thread up in a future debate and insist that since no one called him on his wrong information, that it must be true (false!). Just look at this very thread for evidence of him doing exactly that from the last debate he sullied with his dirty lies. Like the crap about the devastation in a “Palestinian” village pre 1948, supposedly proving what hideously evil creatures the Jews were, yet IGNORING once again, the fact that even then the Jews were doing nothing more than FIGHTING BACK against Arab terrorism. It was right there in the link he provided. I even quoted it and highlighted it.

…the rising ambitions of Arab leaders, all served to arouse Arab unrest and incite violence.

Following Arab riots in 1920 and 1921 on Jewish agricultural colonies in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and Jaffa, which were sparked by the urgings of the Mufti Haj Amim al-Husseini…

As Hitler and the Nazis rose to power in Germany, persecutions sent a stream of German Jews to Palestine. The Arabs reacted with new riots…

In November 1936, a new British Royal Commission headed by Lord William Robert Peel came to Palestine to investigate the causes of Arab terror.

The Jews accepted the partition plan, for with all its territorial limitations and inequities, it nevertheless assured a Jewish state in Palestine with the backing of the world. The Arabs however acted to the contrary, rejecting the partition by unleashing a storm of violence through the country.

This is why I have a hard time letting his lies stand unchallenged.

But I see that the wise and calmer (than me on this issue) Tabby_Cat has taken up the good fight. I wish him/her well. Like you, I fear it is an exercise in futility.

Shalom

[GaWd]

Shayna,

At the very least, take peace in knowing you and I, and others are right, and no matter what book he cherrypicks his quotes out of, he is wrong. Dead wrong. Then take some sort of solace in the fact that he is a wacky politico whose ideologies are so far out there that they will never represented in our population.

Olentzero- I wish you would have listened to what others tried to tell you. I wish you no ill will, but for the love of all that is good in life, please revisit this thread sometime in the future and consider whast you’ve said and what others have tried to tell you. THen pick up a history book and consider how wrong you have been.

Revisionist history isn’t history at all and you’ve bought into it hook, line and stinker.

Sam