Palestinian scum

[FinnAgain]

@sevastopol

I don’t believe the Intifada is a uniform movement, tied to any one particular tactic. Hamas arguably, but has not the PLO * recognised *the right of Israel to exist ?

(not just Hamas, but Islamic Jihad, Arafat’s own Fatah party, etc…)

And as for the PLO (I think you mean PA?) saying Israel has a right to exist…

In English.
While calling for its destruction in Arabic.
Tres chic.

@sevastopol

Further I don’t agree that Finn Again is reasoning correctly.

Ok…
prove to me how, under any circumstances, murdering civilians is cool?

@sevastopol

For example consider if we view the Israelis as illegal occupiers, particularly the settlers and this is a reasonable viewpoint.

Particularly the settlers, but what about those blown to bits inside the green line?
Do they count?

@sevastopol

Then are not the Palestinians the lawful authority. The penalty they exact for illegal occupation is theirs to determine, the justice of which is not to be argued outside their own territory. If it is summary execution, so be it.

So be it… whee

And again, this weird double standard… if Israel was to view the Palestinians as illegal occupants, would THEY be entitled to execute any and all Palestinians caught on their land?

Could America do that to Mexican illegal immigrants?

(If you can’t tell, it’s a lil’ bit annoying that you put forward an argument that you admit is bullshit and then claim that because you can create bullshit arguments there is moral ambiguity. There isn’t, and until you can create a valid example, you certainly can’t prove it either)

@sevastopol

This isn’t an irrefutable argument by any means, or even one I necessarily support. I’ve put it up to show that the “QED” position is not as strong as it is represented. The moral position is ambiguous in almost every respect.

Unfortunately I still haven’t seen an iota of evidence that targeting civilians or rounding up illegal immigrants and executing them is not the act of scum

No matter what, the deliberate and targeted killing of civilians is immoral. You deport illegal aliens, you don’t summarily execute them.

Just because you claim moral ambiguity does not mean it exists.

So no, the QED does not translate into a sweeping mandate for Israel to do whatever it wants. Or a tacit statement that the Jews are the Chosen People of God and can do now wrong, or whatever.

Again, in shorter form.

1. If anybody, anywhere, anywhen, targets civilians and purposefully murders them, they are scum.
2. Based on orders from Arafat (and signed receipts for suicide belts and explosives) we may assume that the PA in general and terrorist umbrella groups in specific target civilians.
3. Afafat and the umbrella terrorist groups target civilians, thus they are scum.

QED.

Or let me shorten it even further so that it becomes a catch-all guide to morals.

1. If anybody, anywhere, anywhen, targets civilians and purposefully murders them, they are scum.
2. Certain Palestinian people target civilians and purposefully murder them.
3. Thus certain Palestinian individuals are scum.

QED…

---

Oh, and some very interesting articles written at the time by Immanuel Velikovsky

They’re all very good, written at the time of the war of independance, I’d advise reading them all.

[Tabby_Cat]

@Shayna

But I see that the wise and calmer (than me on this issue) Tabby_Cat has taken up the good fight. I wish him/her well. Like you, I fear it is an exercise in futility.

Shalom

Hey, I dinae say t’were fer’im!

Even if he doesn’t “get it”, this is for the rest of the people that are reading this thread, and maybe got the wrong idea about how land law, and in this particular case, how Israel was born. Even if he doesn’t accept it (and face it, we’re in the Pit), the people reading this will have both sides of the story, and can make up their own minds. I can only show them the way. ^^

Anyway, even though this is the Pit, don’t get too worked up over stuff like this - it’s only a message board. Even if he isn’t convinced, nothing you can do will convince him - enjoy yourself! The other 3000 odd views will see if you make more sense, or if he does. ^^

Peace.

[Jackmannii]

@gobear

In some way(s), his (Olentzero’s) perseverance in the face of harsh criticism is to be admired.

He is no Jew hater, not a bigot, nor a racist. He wants fair treatment for the dispossessed, but IMO he has a hard time seeing what’s fair for every side.

That doesn’t make him bad, just stubborn (and I know from stubborn).

Stubborn is one thing. And then there’s fanatical.

And we’ve seen again and again what fanaticism accomplishes in the Middle East.

[Rune]

@sevastopol

This isn’t an irrefutable argument by any means, or even one I necessarily support. I’ve put it up to show that the “QED” position is not as strong as it is represented. The moral position is ambiguous in almost every respect.

You can say that again! There really is no two ways or moral ambiguity in this particular case (unless you want to invoke some moral bankrupt ideology of near absolute moral relativity). Killing pregnant women: wrong! Killing small children: wrong! Going up to and purposefully shooting a pregnant women and her small children several times at close range: very fucking wrong! Bragging about it afterwards: sick! Celebrating it in the streets: sick!

But what can you do with an organisation which deems the murder of a pregnant women and her small children a “successful attack” and an “heroic resistance operation”? Sick. A perverted blot on the human race. A cancerous growth that must be irradiated. (How can a terror organisation have an official web-site anyway? Can all criminal organisations have web-sites? What about: www.mob.com)

HamasOnline.com is for sale | HugeDomains

As for the history of Israel. Regardless who’s to blame regarding the creation of Israel, the majority of Israelis today are second or third generation natives, born and bred in Israel – if nothing else then this should give them the moral right to stay and consider it their country.

Surely there are more reasonable alternatives than the likes of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Arafat within the Palestinian population. But it is the responsibility of the Palestinian themselves to bring them forth – nobody but they can do this. Also it’s a little bit ironic that the woman killed, was on her way to protest the Israeli withdrawal. Which she choose to do by a demonstration, and here’s the rub that seems so very, very hard for the Palestinians to grasp: it was a peaceful demonstration. What she did not do, was go out and shoot some random Arab child, baby or pregnant mother to bloody pulp.

Btw. Congratulation with the oil.

[Olentzero]

@GaWd

I wish you would have listened to what others tried to tell you.

I did - you told me I was quoting from propaganda books and quoting Menachem Begin out of context. I asked you if the Red Cross observer was lying and what the proper context for Begin’s quote was. If my sources are false, don’t just tell me they are, show me why.

That goes for any and all of the sources I’ve used here and in the “Hamas” thread. If they are false, show me why they are false. If they are accurate but my interpretations are inaccurate, show me why they are inaccurate.

We’ve both provided examples and counterexamples of why we think the other side can’t claim the moral high ground. You decry the Palestinians for voicing support of the Nazis; I show evidence that the Zionists actively collaborated with them and, what’s more, actively refused to rescue their fellow Jews from the Holocaust. You show examples of the horrific effects of Palestinian terror; I cite examples that show Israel is no stranger to such acts. Back and forth, and so on and so on. I think we can quite agree this is a bloody mess. That, unfortunately, is not going to get us anywhere.

So the question boils down to - why are the Palestinians fighting, even today? My position is that this is the latest battle in a war that’s been going on for over half a century, and it started with the active displacement of a population from the land they owned and lived upon. I’ve provided cites to bolster my arguments and all that comes out in return are cries of “Liar! Lying pigfuck!” with no actual argument as to why either my sources or my analysis are falsifications. Don’t just tell me I’m wrong - show me why.

[Rune]

@Olentzero

So the question boils down to - why are the Palestinians fighting, even today?

No actually. For me the question boils down to - why on earth do the Palestinians think killing a pregnant woman and her children has anything to do with fighting? (…or blowing up school busses, pizza restaurants, etc.) Why can’t they get through their knuckleheads that, even disregarding the screaming perversity of such crimes, that it’s counterproductive and directly stupid.

[GaWd]

Zero-

Many people have tried educating you on the birth of Israel. You call it a land grab by the Jews, which is puzzling and troubling. History tells a different story, indeed, even contained within a website you listed as a cite the history was laid out in plain english and you’ve ignored it.

THat is all I’m calling you on. Your revisionist history, cites Et al are troubling. Your cherry-picking of facts from websites dedicated to the history of the region is troubling. Your cherry-picking of who to respond to and what to respond to are also bothersome.

I won’t even get into the argument of who is worse, morally, ethically, because we’ll just be talking to brick walls and I’m not interested in that. I suppose you can call yourself intellectually superior because most people have tired of discussing the matter with you at all. I’ve joined that crowd.

Enjoy.

Sam

[Olentzero]

@Tabby_Cat

First of all, you cannot “directly” own land. From who? How do you claim this land is “yours”?

Well, there are deeds of ownership, land grants, and other similar legal niceties. How do you think the colonists in America got their land? Of course, the question of just how legal those charters were is a big one - claiming this land for the King or Queen without so much as a “by your leave” from the natives is rather crass - but this is a side issue. The question here is, did Palestinian Arabs have some form of legal title to the land?

Simply because you’ve been sitting on it the longest? By that token, I can own any land simply by sitting on it until it’s mine. Not true. Property rights in land do not work that way, and for the simple reason that it would be ludicrous.

As a side issue, what about squatter’s rights? On the main issue, however, the Palestinians weren’t just sitting on the land. Let’s take a look at this map–

LIAR! LYING PIGFUCK!

…sorry, just pre-empting Shayna there…

and examine the types of land owned by Palestinian Arabs in the few years before the partition. There are eight categories listed, five of which are agricultural - citrus (presumably orange and olive groves), bananas, plantations (presumably for non-edible plant products), and cereal, taxable and non-taxable. In each of those categories the Palestinian Arab communities far outstripped the Jewish population in total area owned; in fact two of those categories alone (plantation and taxable cereal land) are equal to or greater in area than the total area owned by the Jewish population as a whole. So the Palestinian Arabs weren’t just squatting on the land, they were putting it to good productive use.

Rune, check out post #207 in this thread, my latest reply to FinnAgain, for my arguments on what lies behind some Palestinian organizations’ choice of terrorist tactics.

[LavenderBlue]

Olentzero argues:

I linked to another page on that site about the freaking coinage of the British Mandate of Palestine to argue with lavenderlemon about the use of the word “Palestine” before 1960.

You ignored my point that the ARAB population living there did not refer to themselves as Palestinian until the late 1960’s. How can there be Palestinians in 1947 if the term wasn’t used by the Palestinians themselves until the 1960’s?

Olentzero argues:

Now, having said that, do you have any proof that the Jews were driven out of Israel by Arabs, and when?

They were driven out of every nearly single other Arab nation on the face of the Earth, communities they had lived in for thousands of years. That’s why many Israelis are ARAB Jews. To this day the small communities of Jews scattered throughout the Arab world largely live as fearful second class citizens.

[GaWd]

You ignored my point that the ARAB population living there did not refer to themselves as Palestinian until the late 1960’s. How can there be Palestinians in 1947 if the term wasn’t used by the Palestinians themselves until the 1960’s?

Oh, c’mon LL, the term “Palestine” is a Hebrew word dating back to the days of the Greeks, what do you mean it wasn’t used until the 1960’s? Show me why you would get that impression*. :rolleyes:

They were driven out of every nearly single other Arab nation on the face of the Earth, communities they had lived in for thousands of years. That’s why many Israelis are ARAB Jews. To this day the small communities of Jews scattered throughout the Arab world largely live as fearful second class citizens.

Prove it! Show me incontrovertible proof(I.E. you were there, or a pro-Zionist book states it in the manuscript somewhere)*. :rolleyes:

Sam

*Yes, this is the purest form of sarcasm, please don’t misunderstand my intent

[Tabby_Cat]

@Olentzero

Well, there are deeds of ownership, land grants, and other similar legal niceties. How do you think the colonists in America got their land? Of course, the question of just how legal those charters were is a big one - claiming this land for the King or Queen without so much as a “by your leave” from the natives is rather crass - but this is a side issue. The question here is, did Palestinian Arabs have some form of legal title to the land?

Um, nobody is denying that they had legal title to the land. However, the fact is that the legal title to the land was from the Turks, which then handed that over to the British. Which, by the way, has nothing to do with the formation of Israel. Israel was formed by the UN declaring it an independant state, and handing over sovereignty (which the UN held from the British) of the stated area.

@Olentzero

As a side issue, what about squatter’s rights? On the main issue, however, the Palestinians weren’t just sitting on the land. Let’s take a look at this mapand examine the types of land owned by Palestinian Arabs in the few years before the partition. <snip>

Not the point at all. They became refugees, and not citizens of Israel, and abandoned their properties. I have no doubt that they were productive on the land, and that they owned the land (from the Turkish Government) - moot point. It

a) Does not infringe on the right of the UN to hand sovereignty of the land to Israel

b) Ceased when they left their land to join the army against Israel, or claimed refugee status.

Therefore, it does not affect the argument that the British had no right to “dispose” of the land, nor does it affect the argument that the Israelis made a “land grab”.

[capacitor]

If criticizing Israeli policies makes one and anti-Semite, then…I am an anti-Semite too.

Damn, the extremists are taking over both sides of the argument.

[Olentzero]

@lavenderlemon

You ignored my point that the ARAB population living there did not refer to themselves as Palestinian until the late 1960’s. How can there be Palestinians in 1947 if the term wasn’t used by the Palestinians themselves until the 1960’s?

OK. There were Arabs, roughly 1 million of them, living in cities and on farms and plantations in the territory known from 1920 to 1948 as the British Mandate of Palestine. What were they, if not Palestinians? Secondly, if it satisfies you in some way that I not call the Arabs living in that place at that time Palestinians, what did they call themselves so that I may call them that?

They were driven out of every nearly single other Arab nation on the face of the Earth, communities they had lived in for thousands of years.

When? Before or after 1948? I’ve seen cites from Shayna that delineate a handful of pogroms and massacres of Jews in Arab countries since 1808, but nothing about the mass exodus of Jews from those countries. And where would they have gone, if they were driven out before 1948?

That’s why many Israelis are ARAB Jews.

The situation of the Mizrahim, at first glance, seems to be a complex one. I need to read up on this more.

To this day the small communities of Jews scattered throughout the Arab world largely live as fearful second class citizens.

Minorities are oppressed and persecuted the world over. How does that justify the state of Israel doing the same to the Palestinians?

@GaWd

Your cherry-picking of facts from websites dedicated to the history of the region is troubling.

I did not use that site, nor did I intend to use it, for any other purpose than to prove that the region currently under debate has been called “Palestine” for at least 80 years. You can certainly say “Here’s some more stuff from that site to add to the argument” without calling me a liar for not using in when I didn’t intend to use it. And that history tells the “official” side of it - Britain and the UN collaborated on a partition of Palestine and got 33 other countries to vote on it, giving 55% of the territory of Palestine to what was then a minority population, completely disregarding the fact that the majority of the population owned and used the overwhelming majority of the land. There’s nothing in that history I wasn’t already aware of. Now, if you please, demonstrate why the quotes from the Zionist Federation of Germany memorandum, Jacques de Reynier, and Menachem Begin are either outright lies or quoted out of context.

Your cherry-picking of who to respond to and what to respond to are also bothersome.

In case you hadn’t noticed, there’s really only one person on one side of the debate - me (with a nod to posters like sevastopol and UselessGit) - squaring off against a good five or six other people - you, Shayna, FinnAgain, lavenderlemon, Rune, and Weirddave - so the debate becomes a choice of which questions require how much effort. I’m quite sorry I can’t answer all of everyone’s questions. I do what I can, and if questions slip through the cracks it’s not deliberately done.

[Olentzero]

@Tabby_Cat

Um, nobody is denying that they had legal title to the land. However, the fact is that the legal title to the land was from the Turks, which then handed that over to the British. Which, by the way, has nothing to do with the formation of Israel. Israel was formed by the UN declaring it an independant state, and handing over sovereignty (which the UN held from the British) of the stated area.

Right. Britain beats the Ottoman Empire in war, and claims territory therefrom as spoils. Britain, three decades later, withdraws and turns over sovereignty not to the Palestinian Arabs but to the UN. Which is rather odd, seeing as how they had no problem turning over sovereignty directly to the Iraqi and Jordanian Arabs earlier. Of course, it may have had something to do with the Balfour Declaration, which expressed British commitment to building a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and being well aware of Arab resistance to it, figured the best way to get it done is through channels that avoid letting the Palestinian Arabs have a say in the process.

Not the point at all. They became refugees, and not citizens of Israel, and abandoned their properties.

Why did they choose to flee, though? Perhaps it was because of incidents like Deir Yassin? I’ve already quoted Menachem Begin as saying the effects that massacre had on the Arab population could hardly be overestimated. You can’t simply say “Well, they fled and gave up their land” without examining why they did so.

I have no doubt that they were productive on the land, and that they owned the land (from the Turkish Government) - moot point. It

a) Does not infringe on the right of the UN to hand sovereignty of the land to Israel

Oh yes it bloody well does. The Palestinians’ right to self-determination was blatantly violated by this partition.

b) Ceased when they left their land to join the army against Israel, or claimed refugee status.

Again, did the majority of Palestinians leave voluntarily or were they chased out?

Therefore, it does not affect the argument that the British had no right to “dispose” of the land, nor does it affect the argument that the Israelis made a “land grab”.

If you stand for the right of the people who live in a region to determine their own destiny it does.

[FinnAgain]

@capacitor

If criticizing Israeli policies makes one and anti-Semite, then…I am an anti-Semite too.

Damn, the extremists are taking over both sides of the argument.

Wow, nice strawman there.

I know that I myself have said just those words thousands of times in this very thread, right? That anybody who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite?

I mean, I’ve criticized Israel…

---

The point that is being made is not that criticism is bad but that willful blindness and historical revisionism are bad and/or ignorant and/or racist.

The point is that saying purposefully murdering babies and pregnant mothers is the same as targeting terrorists is deliberate obfuscation

The point is that when someone cricicizes Israel for actions that they wouldn’t criticize anybody else for, that is a problem

The point is that when people claim that the victims are the ones who brought it on themselves, that is sick.

The POINT is that both Israel and Palestine have done some things wrong, and peace is good, but that as the OP contended, the deliberate targeting and murder of civilians is wrong

That’s all. Don’t muddy the waters with strawmen.

[Rune]

@Olentzero

In case you hadn’t noticed, there’s really only one person on one side of the debate - me (with a nod to posters like sevastopol and UselessGit) - squaring off against a good five or six other people - you, Shayna, FinnAgain, lavenderlemon, Rune, and Weirddave - so the debate becomes a choice of which questions require how much effort. I’m quite sorry I can’t answer all of everyone’s questions. I do what I can, and if questions slip through the cracks it’s not deliberately done.

Don’t forget capacitor! He just popped in to make an ass of himself.

You’re doing good Olentzero. Can’t say I’ve read all you’ve written but at least you seem to put up a spirited fight. Of course you’re a wacky son-of-a-bitch with an at best tentative grasp on reality and an ideology must sane people buried three decades ago , but if it wasn’t for you there would be no discussion and none of what I’ve read of your posts seem anti-semitism to me or to be above average bigotry of any other kind. (I am however not Jewish, and admit to have little experience in detecting anti-Semitism)

[LavenderBlue]

@Olentzero

OK. There were Arabs, roughly 1 million of them, living in cities and on farms and plantations in the territory known from 1920 to 1948 as the British Mandate of Palestine. What were they, if not Palestinians?

Um Arabs? What’s next? Will you be referring to the Iroquois of the 1500’s as New Yorkers?

Secondly, if it satisfies you in some way that I not call the Arabs living in that place at that time Palestinians, what did they call themselves so that I may call them that? When? Before or after 1948?

Again they called themselves Arabs. The Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza allied themselves with other Arabs to drive out the Jews living the area.

I’ve seen cites from Shayna that delineate a handful of pogroms and massacres of Jews in Arab countries since 1808, but nothing about the mass exodus of Jews from those countries. And where would they have gone, if they were driven out before 1948?

You’re ignoring the ugly status of Jews and other non-Muslims in Muslim countries. Google dhimmi. As for where they would have gone before 1948, that’s a rhetorical question that can’t be answered. Since 1948, they’ve mostly gone to Israel. I find it immensely hypocritical of the Arab-Muslim world to drive Jews out of their own countries and then complain when they settle in Israel.

The situation of the Mizrahim, at first glance, seems to be a complex one. I need to read up on this more. Minorities are oppressed and persecuted the world over.

Then you can’t answer my question about where the Jews from Arab countries were supposed to settle?

How does that justify the state of Israel doing the same to the Palestinians?

Where is Israel “doing the same to the Palestinians?” Israeli Arabs who stayed after 1948 consitute one fifth of Israel’s population. Admittedly their situation could be improved upon but they’ve hardly been kicked out of the country. As for the situation in the West Bank that’s not pretty – or wholly justifiable – but it’s a response to war.

The small Jewish minorities living in Arab countries before they were ethnically cleansed from the all Arab nations were not at war with any Arab country in the region. They were certainly not walking to local supermarkets and blowing people to bits. You cannot compare the two.

I did not use that site, nor did I intend to use it, for any other purpose than to prove that the region currently under debate has been called “Palestine” for at least 80 years.

But not by the people who currently call themselves “Palestinian.”

You can certainly say “Here’s some more stuff from that site to add to the argument” without calling me a liar for not using in when I didn’t intend to use it. And that history tells the “official” side of it - Britain and the UN collaborated on a partition of Palestine and got 33 other countries to vote on it, giving 55% of the territory of Palestine to what was then a minority population, completely disregarding the fact that the majority of the population owned and used the overwhelming majority of the land. There’s nothing in that history I wasn’t already aware of.

Um where did I call you a liar? I did imply you were being disingenous in your usage of the term Palestinian. You are. And as Shayna pointed out the majority of the population DID get the land. Heck they gave much of Transjordan away to a King who didn’t hesitate to slaughter thousands of Palestinians himself. But just continue ignoring your own cites . . .

[QUOTE]

[Olentzero]

@Rune

Don’t forget capacitor! He just popped in to make an ass of himself.

Nah, I was trying to count people who’d actually attempted to make a contribution to the thread rather than just the pot-shot posters.

You’re doing good Olentzero. Can’t say I’ve read all you’ve written but at least you seem to put up a spirited fight.

There’s an anecdote about Lenin in his early years in which one of the older Russian revolutionaries - Vera Zasulich, I think - mentioned the differences between the arguing styles of Plekhanov and Lenin. “Plekhanov will shake a thing around for a while and then drop it; Lenin is like a bulldog - he gets a deathgrip on it and won’t let go.” Lenin was highly amused by the statment and would repeated it often for a while afterwards. I imagine I now know how he felt.

Of course you’re a wacky son-of-a-bitch with an at best tentative grasp on reality and an ideology must sane people buried three decades ago

Time will tell, dude.

but if it wasn’t for you there would be no discussion and none of what I’ve read of your posts seem anti-semitism to me or to be above average bigotry of any other kind.

What, is it, like, average, run-of-the-mill bigotry in your view?

[Rune]

@Olentzero

What, is it, like, average, run-of-the-mill bigotry in your view?

Yup! That’d be the kind. We all have a healthy dose of that; it comes with the genes and dear mother’s milk.

[FinnAgain]

@lavenderlemon

Where is Israel “doing the same to the Palestinians?” Israeli Arabs who stayed after 1948 consitute one fifth of Israel’s population.

Just in case anybody was preparing to bring up the spurious analogy to apartheid…

Muslim Israelis can vote. Muslim Israelis can serve in the Knesset (and indeed some do).

@lavenderlemon

The small Jewish minorities living in Arab countries before they were ethnically cleansed from the all Arab nations were not at war with any Arab country in the region.

[Revision] That is because the naughty Jews were kicking butt all over the middle east, they were, like, Rambo or something! Boom! Ka Pow! Whee! [/Revision]