Well it’s no secret that what Hamas et al. are fighting for is not some portion of Palestine but the whole damn shebang - a one state solution. So pulling out of occupied territories (so called) would make little difference by UselessGit’s line of argument – as they’d still be occupying land according to Hamas. And Hamas would still have no other means to fight than killing children.
Can I come back on this as it came from something I posted. Yes, there is a fundamental difference between killing someone on purpose and killing someone accidentally. There is also a fundamental differnce between killing someone accidentally and deliberately firing a missile into an area where you can be fairly sure that innocent death will be the result. The fact that you may not be sure of the particular innocents whose death will result does not mean we can automatically categorise it as accidental.
Not that I necesarally disagree (although a gazillion may be overstating it a little), but I’m interested as to what you would suggest.
This phrase always boggles my mind. “illegal occupation of land.”
It is chanted like a mantra.
Why is the land Israel seized in defensive wars illegal
but that Arab nations which launched those attacks were acting in perfect legality?
If, for example, you use the Golan heights to launch shells into residential areas, do you still have a ‘legal’ right to that territory so you can go back to killing civilians later?
Or are we, miracle of miracles, going to grant the right of self defense to the Israelis?
Moreoever, if what is going on now isn’t a war I don’t know what war is.
Yes, this is the problem that several others have already pointed out.
Someone who tries to murder babies obviously is scum.
But someone who tries to save babies is also scum?
Tell me why Israeli ‘militants’ are scum?
Again, you haven’t answered my question
I will agree that you are totally and absolutely correct
If and only if you can provide an Israeli response that doesn’t ammount to allowing themselves to be slaughtered
So, what pragmatic solution can these ‘Israeli militants’ use to deal with terrorism?
Again, this moral equivelancy is false-to-facts.
How can you claim that a man who tries to murder infants, tries, attempts, means to, intends to, enjoys, wants to, gets his jolliess by obliterating children… that a man like that is on the same moral level as a soldier who risks life and limb to hunt that very same man down?
Show me just why these "Israeli militants’ have done something wrong, and what they should be doing instead.
Yes, dead children make for a sad headline, but do you honestly see no difference between a man who goes out looking for some kids to kill and a cop who gets into a shootout with that same man and ends up hitting some innocent spectators?
Motive plays a big role…
Yes.
Killing in self defense is ‘less evil’ than the premeditated murder or civilians.
See, if you TRY to kill civilians that’s worse than NOT TRYING to kill civilians…
And again, how can you judge them on their ‘own actions’? Isn’t that sort of ignoring the chain of events?
That’s like saying when a cop opens fire on a guy who is busy killing kids, the cop should be considered a murderer because all we should look at is him pulling the trigger and not why he pulled it.
There’s no real need for such a rank… Easy, quick, simple:
Do you try to kill civilians? Try to? Enjoy it? Get an erection when you blow up babies?
Yes?
Then you’re scum.
Do you strike military targets? Try not to kill civilians? Act with tremendous restriant?
Yes?
Then you’re fighting a war in a civilized manner against scum.
or, maybe, you’re referring to the fact that the Palestinians themselves would surely use military hardware to fight military targets and not, oh… have Hamas make statements like using their Kasam rockets…
yeah, a very good thing that if these ‘freedom fighters’ ever got their hands on Kasam and Katyusha we could be sure they’re use these weapons against valid military targets.
Not accidental.
But a military necessity.
And, please, please, please answer my question
how can Israel protect itself without doing wrong in your eyes?
To me, a surgical strike with missiles against terrorists seems the most humane way to go about it… larger ordinance means more problems, boots on the ground means ‘occupation’, doing nothing means another Shoah…
So, please, honestly and truly, what should the IDF do, in your eyes, to be ‘moral?’
I doubt the vote was going to be in favor. However, I also doubt it was a coincidence that there was a terrorist action in Gaza early in the day of a Likud referendum to back Sharon’s plan to withdraw from Gaza.
Haaretz suggests a link:
I’m not interested in entering yet an other blame game on the Palestine/Israel issue, but as usual in such thread, we see the appearence of “references” to Al Qur’an. It is always interesting to see how others look at it.
That can certainly be so in the eyes of those not familiar with the issue. Once you get a translation with sufficient exegeses incorporated you become more able to read the verses in their context. Yet in many cases it is already enough to read the previous and next verses to see the context of what is written = what situation it refers to.
Personally I am known in the inner circle of family, friends and study field to propagate a few exceptions on the rule that nothing in the instructions as written in Al Qur’an contradicts its message. Yet these have nothing to do with what you think there is written as quoted in your post.
Well… No.
There is however a lot in its scripture that can be taken out of context and used to make it look as if bigotry, brutality and intolerance are propagated by Al Qur’an.
That is exactly what the lunatic, yet not crazy, so called “fundamentalists” do. Their target audience being people who in fact have no insight in real and/or deeper context and history of the writings. This lack of scholarship is however the normal situation of a majority of people from known religions regarding history, context and exegeses of their Holy Books.
Salaam. A
:smack:
Sorry, Rune, that should have been “freedom fighters”, forgot the brackets.
Actually, I almost put a “I do not mean” list below that post but decided not to. I’ll do it the next time around.
I said:
I didn’t mean killing pregnant women and their children, and I don’t know how I keep coming across as meaning something like that. I even previewed!
What’s not true? And where the hell did I resolve them of moral responsibility?
If you have a gazillion better ways than terrorism for the Palestinians they need more men like you over there. Could you name but a few for me? Walking over to the Israeli soldiers and challenging them to a game of fisticuffs, perhaps?
What?
Of course there is something wrong with that killing, there is something wrong with all killings and I find this one particularly offensive. Sympathising with the Palestinian POV does not equate with agreeing with their actions.
As I said, I don’t have a solution. I think you know that what I meant was that it’s Israel, not Jews, that we are objecting to. Pointing the accusatory finger and screaming “Anti-Semitic bastard!” at everyone who’s sympathetic to the Palestinians is getting pretty old. I’m not saying that Israel should “pull out of all Palestine” - since they obviously couldn’t - but I don’t think the Palestinians would accept anything less. That’s one problem. Pulling out of the West Bank would be a start but I don’t even think that would be a solution in the long run. I’m not wishing discontinued existense on Israel, but putting Israel there to begin with wasn’t exactly the best of ideas, IMHO.
This is a terrible mess, and while I sincerely hope that there will be a peaceful resolution to this, I can’t imagine what that might be.
No, they’re not. The huge tragedy here is that if the Palistinian “leadership” would actively call for an end to terrorist attacks and vigorously prosecute those who use these tactics, they’d have their own state within a very short period of time. Doing so would kick the legs out from under any legitimacy Israel has in expanding settlements, and lead to a tremendous amount of world pressure on Israel to give the Palistinians their own country, and likely tip the political balance inside Israel in favor of abandoning the settlements and guaranteeing Palistinian sovreignty. This is what the Palistinian “leadership” claims to want, so why don’t they do it? Could it be that their real goal is not a safe, free Palistinain homeland but rather genocide against the Jews? Gee, I wonder…
Until the Palistinians people jettison their “leadership” and get some real leaders, this quagmire will continue. Unfortunately, the Anwar Sadats of the world are fairly rare.
Utter bollocks. The occupation of land is illegal because it infringes international law, as recognised by the UN. The invasions were illegal for exactly the same reason. Who exactly said that the Arab nations were 'acting in perfect legality.
I already told you. The fact that you will not admit any possible wrongdoing on the part of Israel doesn’t mean that I didn’t already tell you!
Do you seriously think a cop would react to this situation by pumping ordanance into an area where he could be reasonably sure that innocent parties would be harmed. I don’t know how American cops work, but any British policeman doing that would not keep his job.
Ha ha, yeah nice one. I will agree that there is no possible answer I could give to your question that would not result in you replying with ‘oh, well of course Israel could do that, then the Palestinians would drive them into the sea’. I will leave others to decide whether that reflects more on the plausibility of possible answers or your blinkered outlook on the situation. While we’re on the questions, what would you have the Palestinians do, that would result in a viable state based on the 1967 borders?
For the record, I do believe that any viable solution will require international peacekeepers in the area in fairly large numbers. It will require the withdrawal of all illegal settlements. It will first require a US President who will commit himself to achieving the above. There are some people on the Palestianian side who will never accept any settlement, and at some point they will have to be dealt with. The breakthrough will be in detaching the majority of the Palestinian population from the militants, not in killing people.
Aldebaran
Kindly show me where I took anything out of context.
Your assertions mean precisely dick to me. Back them up with analysis or fuck off. I’ve no time for fluid heavy headed apologists.
Well then, perhaps I wasn’t clear enough:
Any system of law which views self defense and the capture of military staging grounds as ‘illegal’ is obviously flawed.
Common sense tells you that if a man comes at you with a gun, you can take away the gun and not be a thief.
By the same logic, if all your neighbors attack you, you can take their staging grounds and not be an occupier.
First, that’s a strawman as I’ve have never, ever, ever said Israel has no ‘possible wrongdoing.’
In fact, I have said several times that Israel is not blameless. Specifically look at the last paragraph in my very first post to this thread. Post number 11.
And you have NOT shown why the IDF is scum, unless your sole claim is that they cause collateral damage when protecting their civilians, and you have yet to suggest a viable alternative.
So if your only claim is that the Israeli “militants” are at war and are acting as if they’re at war, no, I won’t agree that they’re scum.
Unless I’m mistaken British cops and criminals don’t have guns. American cops and criminals do. And shootouts sometimes happen even if you’re trying for a peaceful resolution.
Am I to take your position to mean that if an American cop was being fired upon and it was in a public place he would be MORALLY wrong to return fire?
Wow.
I mean that, wow.
Normally with my tinfoil hat on people can’t read my thoughts and tell me how I’ll respond to things, good job there.
If you admit you cannot give me a viable solution then the fault lies with your argument, don’t try to shift the blame to me.
I’m open minded, I will accept any solution that will actually work. So give me one or admit that the IDF is doing the right-albeit-unpleasant thing.
You not being able to provide a valid solution?
Yeah, that reflects real poorly on me.
A state based on the indefensible-for-Israel ’67 borders?
Nothing.
A viable state with redrawn border for 2004?
Give up terrorism and negotiate in good faith.
See, when every Arab nation goes to war in order to achieve genocide they lose the rights to set the borders. Israel should give back all the land that isn’t necessary for its security, but should keep every pebble of land that is required for its very survival.
Agreed, Israel will need to abandon the settlements as its trade off. If and only if the PA stops terrorism.
And. most of Israel wanted peace a while ago, when will the Palestinians take responsibility for their own actions and break away from their murderous ‘militants?’ Israel had Rabin, and Arafat is no fucking Rabin.
No, they’re not occupied by a foreign army or no, they are not fighting back the only way they can?
You have a point, of course, regarding the Palestine leaders calling for the end of these attacks, but do you seriousy think that after all they have been through, they will just stop attacking the Israelis and hope for everything to change? Why should they count on “tremendous amount of world pressure on Israel to give the Palistinians their own country” when the world as a whole seems to be on Israel’s side? There is a fair ammount of pressure from Europe on Israel as it is, but that is brushed aside as “Anti-Semitism” and the US refuses to condemn Israel for anything they do.
I hope you’re not suggesting that the Palestinians value murdering Isrealis (or Jews, as you call them) more than having a safe, free Palestinian homeland - you seem more sensible than that. On the other hand, I had hoped I seemed more sensible than so that I wanted to kill pregnant Isreali women, and I quite obviously don’t. I guess we read what we want into what people say here, especially when those people don’t agree with us. But I digress…
Do you people really think Palestinians are just lowlife “scum” who love nothing more than killing the wretched Jews? More, even, than their own security and freedom?
I’m just trying to grasp your view of the Palestinian people, because many of you seem to think that that they are barbarian “scum”, to quote the OP, and not an oppressed people, walled in and deprived on any human rights in what was once their country. We all know what is happening over there but the reasons behind it seem to be a tad distorted sometimes. Not that I claim to know everything about the situation there, either.
Many see a difference between shooting a woman and her sons, and killing “innocent bystanders” because you launched a missile against a building in the middle of a city.
You can’t claim moral superiority in the latter case, after all you know that the consequence of launching a missile in a densely populated area will surely be the death of third parties. That is why Israel, and the dopers that support it’s action, are hipocrites.
So both palestinian terrorist and Israel leader’s and soldiers are scum.
But, in my opinion, the worst offender is Israel, because, as I said i a previous post you have to expect more from a democracy.
It doesn’t, and I do see the difference. And I thnk you’ll see that I agree with you, if you note that I was addressing Blalron’s contention that there’s some higher standard an ally of the United States should be held to, and wondering what higher standard he expects from the United States, itself, then. Here’s a reminder of the flow of conversation, since it’s back on the first page now:
Israel is literally fighting for her life – for her very existence. What the hell were we fighting for? Weapons of Mass Destruction? Hmmm, no, that wasn’t it. Direct threats of terrorist activity against us? Hmmm, no, that wasn’t it, either. But there seemed to be no compunction about invading their nation and cornering their leader and his family and killing 2 of the 3 for the purpose of… ? That’s right, they were bad, bad men. As if we’re going after all the bad, bad men on the planet. Higher standards my ass. When we can stop behaving like animals ourselves, then we’ll have the right to dicatate the moral ground on which another nation can defend itself against direct terrorist acts occurring within their own country, that’s all I’m saying.
I hope that cleared up any confusion.
Actually, Arab nations routinely refer to Israel as ‘zionists’ and The Jews.
And that’s also a false dichotomy… It isn’t that they value murder more than freedom, it’s that they view murder as the path to freedom. (or else, why engage in suicide bombings?)
All Palestinians are not scum.
All members of Hamas, Al Aqsa Martyrs, Islamic Jyhad, etc… are scum. And yes, they value murder more than peace.
A few points.
One, they are opressed by their own leadership.
Arabs can vote in Israel.
Arabs cannot vote in Palestine.
Why?
If terrorism stopped tomorrow the road-map would resume, thus it is their responsibility.
And, simply to quibble, it was NEVER their country. The land was known as 'Transjordan" and they were legally Jordanian citizens.
The myth of a 'Palestinian people and homeland" was invented after '48.
As that’s not what I said, no you can’t.
Some British policemen are armed by the way, as are some criminals. The former are expected to be far more judicious in the use of their weapons than the latter may be.
I have been avoiding saying that ‘the IDF’ are scum in the same way as I have been avoiding saying that ‘the Palestinians’ are scum. Your base position is that any action by the Israeli military is to be categorised as ‘protecting their civilians’, so not really much else to say, other than that I reject that viewpoint.
See the end of my previous post. No magical formula unfortunately.
Interesting. If the borders are to be redrawn to enhance Israel’s security, is it not logical that they would be redrawn in such a way that the Palestinians do not lose any land? Is that what you are proposing? Are the defensibility of the borders of the new Palestinian state of any concern here?
The roadmap was shredded at the White House a few weeks ago and is currently making the life of the First Hamster that little bit more comfortable.
Someone is going to say this so it might just as well be me:
“Of coooourse… since the Palestinians didn’t have a homeland when Israel was given to the Jews, they are the evildoers and Israelis are just exterminating vermin on their land. After all, the Jews deserved a homeland (and it was promised to them by GOD, no less) and the Palestinian people don’t.”
I know, I know - but this is the pit.
For the record, I have a hamster in this race - Many of my friends and family members are Palestinians. I’ll ask them if they’d accept being Jordanian instead.
And simply to quibble, wasn’t Transjordan a part of Palestine until it became independent in 1946 and renamed Jordan in 1949?
UselessGit,
FinnAgain pretty much said what i would have said, but I did want to respond to one thing:
The latter. “Fighting back” using peacefu;l methods would be far, far more effective.
That’s why i said it would require a leader-someone with vision, as opposed to those,er…useless gits (:p) they have now.
I agree. Peaceful methods would be far more effective than the suicide bombings. I’m just not so sure the Palestinians see it that way, or will ever see it that way.
Fair enough but…
Damn it, damn it, damn it, DAMN IT!
…there goes my campaign. Another dream crushed. 
I hear the Iraqis are looking for a good leader, though…