If this is true, than why won’t Jordan allow their displaced brethren to make a permanent home there?
No, that isn’t what you said, but that is what your logic would imply.
Yet again there’s the idea of a ‘higher standard’. All well and good if, and only if, you can point out a way that ‘higher standard’ amounts to anything other than suicide.
And, just so I can hear what you do say, what should the cop do in that situation? How should he take the ‘higher standard’ except by protecting his own life?
Extrapolate this logic to the Israeli situation please.
Again, what does this ‘judicious’ restraint amount to when you’re under fire? I don’t want to put words in your mouth so please give me a pragmatic, not idealistic, solution.
Well, see, that’s the problem. You keep referring to Israeli ‘militants’ Well and good.
Who are these people? Where are they in space-time?
To my knowledge the IDF are the ones conducting military actions on behalf on the Israeli people. If they’re not the ‘militants’, who are? The Hawks in the Knesset? Wacko settlers who moved from Brooklyn and have AK’s?
Who?
Okay…
now give me a single cite that shows the Israeli army acting in a war of aggression rather than defense… otherwise you are rejecting facts and trying to make it seem as if we’re arguing ‘viewpoints’
You claim the IDF acts for reasons other than to protect its civilians? Very well, give proof or retract.
See, I don’t want a magic formula.
I just want one that will WORK.
And if you can’t do that I’m afraid you have to concede that the IDF is acting with full military necessity behind them.
Again, as I’ve said, come up with a pragmatic and not an idealistic solution and you’ve got my full backing.
Otherwise, and I hope you see this, all you’re doing is saying that Israel is wrong for responding and should not respond to terrorism.
Or would you claim that’s not what you’re saying?
If that’s your claim then what would be an appropriate response?
(do you see what I’m getting at?)
Nope.
Let’s see… the entire Arab world is committed to the destruction of Israel.
Remind me why Palestine would require borders which could repel an Arab attack?
What exactly would Palestine need to be defended FROM?
Fundamentalism? Fanaticism? Martyrdom?
And, as for the roadmap, it’s a real wonder that it has been shredded when the Palestinians are trying to kill as many civilians as possible.
I mean, that’s a good negotiating tactic, I should be surprised the roadmap is derailed, right?
What effect would peaceful methods have in the face of an opponent who is far more well-armed and well-funded by the world’s remaining superpower? What effect would peaceful methods have in the face of a country whose founding was a deliberate provocation, and whose actions since that founding have been nothing but deliberate provocations? What effect would peaceful methods have against a country run by a proven butcher who cares not a whit for human rights in the first place?
I’m sorry to hear of Israelis being killed in acts of Palestinian terrorism. But that doesn’t dilute the blood on the hands of men like Sharon, or Barak, or Rabin, or Netanyahu, nor does it wash away the stink of those bloodstains. And it is galling to hear those who claim to value human life heap opprobrium on the acts of individual Palestinians while completely ignoring the economic, social, and political genocide Israel is conducting against the Palestinian population as a whole which is almost entirely subsidized by the United States.
Brilliant, folks. Throw stones at the smaller dog in this fight for biting the ankle of the larger dog, and ignore the fact that not only is the larger dog tearing the smaller dog’s throat out, but the guy who’s trained and pumped the larger dog up on steroids is also charging us admission to watch this bloodbath.
Or did you think your taxes only went to schools?
Um… ~shocked~
Okay, you don’t honestly think that’s what I am saying it is? The disparities are legion between that and my own worldview, besides the pretty basic fact that I don’t believe in a Gaseous Invertebrate of Astronomical Heft…
Palestinians aren’t “evildoers”, nor is Israel attempting ethnic cleansing or ‘exterminating vermin’
Nor did I say that the Palestinian people don’t deserve their own state.
I am simply putting it in historical context.
So, to add to the historical context, not only were they not ‘Palestinians’ but the world didn’t mind that they were ‘oppressed’ as long as the oppressors weren’t Jews.
Odd, that.
No.
Many people see a difference between walking into a non-military target like, oh, a pizza parlor and murdering dozens of civilians…
and soldiers trying to catch/kill those terrorists.
I think that even someone like you who faults Israel (and I’ll get to that) can at LEAST be honest enough to admit that the motives of both parties are wildly different.
I have to disagree. I think that’s the very definition of moral superiority.
Guy Number One: Hey, let’s go to the local disco and see how many innocent people we can kill, won’t that be fun?
Guy Number Two: Say, some guys blew up the disco last night and killed a lot of people and then ran away to hide in a densely populated area, we can’t let them kill again. We have to take out this military target even though they’re endangering civilians by their cowardly actions and the fact that they deliberately place their bases in residential areas.
See, it’s the little things that matter, like intending to murder civilians.
Hypocrisy would suggest that one does one thing and says another. Both the dopers and the Israelis have said
“Targeting civilians is a no-no”
Show me the contradiction?
The man who murders a baby is not equal to the cop who shoots him.
So let me get this straight… you admit that Israel is a democracy and Palestine is not… which makes Palestine what?
A theocracy? A demagoguery? A police state? A rogue state? A terrorist nation?
Setting that aside for a moment, you’re giving the PA a pass because they’re not democratic?
As in, they can commit crimes against humanity but if Israel responds with force they’re held to a different standard because they have a system of government which promotes freedom?
My, how fair.
Olentzero
Your post is unmitigated horseshit. That Israel commits atrocities against Palestinians is undeniable but if you think that somehow vindicates Palestinian suicide bombers when they blow up babies and toddlers and women and children then you’re deluded. You can’t use the atrocities of one group to legitimize the atrocities of another.
Suicide bombers are pitiful excrement. If they really had the courage of their convictions they’d choose self immolation.
As I’ve already said, there really is no point. Your base position that any act that the IDF thinks it necesary to commit is a ‘defensive action’. We are clearly arguing viewpoints. From my viewpoint, killing the people who launched the attack in Israel (as was done) can be defined as a defensive act. Launching a missile into a radio station is clearly an aggressive act, you can have that as your cite.
I’m done talking about cops. It wasn’t particularly relevant in the first place, but if you really think that a policeman whose fire was so indiscriminate that he ended taking out as many innocents as bad guys would be commended, well we’ll just have to disagree on that.
Who said anything about an Arab attack? And why would that be relevant to Palestine’s border with Israel? Though, for the record, instances of Arab states attacking each other have been known. Why exactly would a Palestinian state not require a secure border with Israel?
griffen2 :
Olentzero 's post was saying exactly that you can’t use the atrocities of one group to legitimise the atrocities of another. I don’t read anywhere where he says that this is a vindication of anything of the sort.
no effect at all, oh, wait…
how about
no, not that either?
So you view the creation of a Jewish Homeland an act of War?
Or is that just rhetoric?
In addition, you claim that Israel’s actions since then have been provocations.
Prove how Israel ‘provoked’ the Yom Kippur War?
How did they provoke a sneak attack on their holiest day?
(what would the world say if the Jews did that to the Arabs?)
In short: give proof or retract.
I agree totally, Arafat needs to go.
Oh wait…
Rabin… Rabin???
I’m sorry, the blood wasn’t on his hands, it was HIS blood on the song sheet for Shir Hashalom
So pardon me if I take your criticism of a true Martyr for Peace with a watermelon sized grain of salt.
Yes, Rabin was a warrior. He killed men in battle. And he saw that war was not the answer and worked for peace.
You are evidently confused.
genocide
n : systematic killing of a racial or cultural group
So, saying there is an ‘economic, social, political GENOCIDE is ignorant at best, obfuscating at worst.
Moreoever. When the Arab nations are ON RECORD (see one of my earlier posts) as wanting ACTUAL GENOCIDE your claims seem rather laughable, or would, were this not a deadly serious matter.
Furthermore, Israel is the source of much of Palestine’s economy, thus the Intifada is what is committing the “genocide” of their economy. Oopsie, right?
And, simply to quibble, were Israel actually changing the social structure and political landscape of Palestine, then there would be a move towards peace and away from violence, proof alone that your claims are spurious.
As Heinlein said, analogy is always suspect.
Let’s not say there are two dogs.
Let’s say there are Palestinians who purposefully target and murder civilians
and then there are Israelis who are defending themselves.
There, all neat and tidy, true-to-life, and without pesky analogies.
And, quite ironic, throwing stones, eh, eh?
Ridiculous.
If Israel actually wanted this ‘genocide’ you claim they’re after, they could’ve killed almost all of the Palestinians by now, just using conventional methods. Carpet bombing works wonders…
So the ‘big dog’ didn’t do anything other than,
~gasp~
become well armed in the interest of self defense…
Damn those Jews! Damn them!
Won’t they just get rid of their advanced technology so they can be butchered more easily?
And, it is clear that you are… confused as to Israel’s history.
I have family who fought in ’48. I have family who were living in Palestine before the first wave of Aliah arrived. I have family who worked with the mafia in America to ship contraband to Irgun and Hagana. I have family who packaged disassembled weaponry in crates marked “tractor parts”. I have family who smuggled bullet molds in their skirts.
And I can assure you, at no point was the United States pumping them up on anything. Although I’m certainly open to the possibility that there was CIA (or was it OSA back then?) intervention… Unless you can give me a cite that shows we’ve been arming them as some proxy since before '47… ~shrugs~
Yes, the US was indeed the first country to recognize Israel. But if it hadn’t been for the courage and strength of men like Rabin, they would have been slaughtered and driven into the sea by their friendly and non-aggressive Arab neighbors.
The US will continue to be Israel’s ally as long as Israel Israel is the only democracy in the ME that doesn’t risk overthrow by Muslim fanatics.
(note: not all Muslims are bad, Islam is a beautiful religion, but fanatics of any sort are a danger, fundamentalist fanatics much more so)
Dude…
Bolding mine. You said a predictable thing just to quibble and my answer was a predictable answer to said quibble. I didn’t even think you’d take it like this, I even put it in brackets! Just to be clear, I don’t think you meant what I think you thought I …though you meant? Erm… yeah. I don’t know when I’m more infuriating - when I’m trying to debate or when I’m trying to be funny.
Goddessdamnit!!!
For the love of all that’s sacred, suggest something else that the IDF can do, anything! Suggest a pragmatic action they can take!
Suggest any action they can take that isn’t “well, they can do nothing in response!”
You put defensive action in quotes… you tell me how killing terrorists who are attacking you is aggressive?
de·fense
n.
- The act of defending against attack, danger, or injury.
- A means or method of defending or protecting.
Is that not what the IDF is doing? Are they not trying to stop suicide bombers?
Soooo… should I get my hopes up? Are you going to follow your own logic through and admit that the IDF is fighting defensively when they kill those who attack Israel?
Um… that’s not a cite. That’s an assertion with no facts.
What radio station?
When?
Was it being used for military purposes?
Give me a cite and I can discuss it.
Ah, but I have quoted you above saying that the IDF responding to someone launching missiles would be defensive. Thus, protective. Thus, acting like a police officer.
And, did I ever say that police officer would be “commended?”
Or, did I say that he wouldn’t be morally-in-the-wrong for doing what was necessary?
I introduced that consideration into this debate.
It is relevant to Israel’s border, and since the Arab world has been the aggressor for decades, that’s a consideration which must be taken.
Known and ongoing
Lebanon and Syria, anybody?
Which makes one wonder, why, again, is it okay for Arabs to oppress each other but when the nasty Jews get involved it is just an awful, awful thing?
The point, however, is that the Arab world has proven Israel needs secure borders, and there is currently no threat towards Palestine.
Because Israel has never launched a war of aggression?
Simply for the record I’m all for a secure Palestine.
But not if it comes at the expense of Israeli security.
The Arab nations have gone on record as wanting the genocide of the Jews as well as waging war, after war, after war, after war.
With a track record like that, I’m willing to give the Israelis the benefit of the doubt.
I submit to you Posts Nos. 106, 117, 120, and 124 of this thread, in which I provide an analysis of the history of Israel, along with several cites and sources. I saw no responses from the pro-Israel participants in the debate along the lines of “You have grossly misinterpreted the facts” or even “Your sources are unquestionably false”, so perhaps I’m not as confused as you would like to think I am?
If I believed in a Hell, I would fervently hope that those members of your family who participated in such activities burned for eternity therein. It is those kinds of actions that showed the Palestinians that the Zionists weren’t interested in peace, and it is those kinds of actions that paved the way for the fightback in which Israel and Palestine are now embroiled. You have no-one to blame for your troubles but yourselves.
Avenger
If I misread him then I’ll retract but he seemed pretty unequivocal to me.
He’s saying that violent resistance is the Palestinians best way to fight their cause.
He’s placing the ultimate blame for the current bloodshed with Israel instead of the Palestinian Authority who refuse to negotiate.
He seems to be insinuating that since Sharon does not care for human rights, the Palestinians don’t need to either. I could be wrong here, though. There is room for ambiguity in his phrasing, but only if you look hard.
I suspect this is mere lip service, given what’s gone before and what follows.
He is saying that it is hypocritical for people to attack Palestinian suicide bombers without also attacking Israel’s military actions. In other words, you can’t judge the evil of the Palestinian suidice bombs on their own merits. He seems to believe that once their acts are put in context with the acts of the Israeli military, they are not quite so heinous. I disagree. Blowing up a bus full of school children or a line of teenagers outside a nightclub is evil, no matter who does it. It is immoral to target innocent civilians be you a Palestinian, an Israeli or a member of the French Resistance fighting against Hitler. It doesn’t matter how badly the Palestinians are treated, killing innocent civilians to intimidate other civilians in the hope that their collective fear will be the catalyst for more favourable Government policies is evil.
He seems to be excusing Palestinian suicide attacks as acts of self defence, thereby skirting over their evil. He seems to be saying exactly what I thought he was saying, that the atrocities committed by Israel put Palestinian suicide bombers who kill children on the moral high ground by default, since they are acting in self defence. I see this as a vindication for the acts of suicide bombers. Again, I find this reasoning abhorrent. If they are acting in self defence, Palestinian suicide bombers should restrict themselves to military targets, not nightclubs full of innocent kids.
As I said above, if I’ve somehow misinterpreted Olentzero I will apologise and retract. However, his post was one of the most unequivocal I’ve ever seen and consequently I sincerely doubt I’m wrong on this score. What do you base your reading of his post on?
~sheepish grins~
That shows ya what not enough caffine will do to a man.
Guess it’s time to back off till my brain cools off and starts working properly again.
FinnAgain
Congratulations. Post 88 was brilliant. If we ever meet up at a dopefest or anything, remind me I owe you a beer.
Yes. Yes, I am. The only way to stop an army from shooting at you is to fight like hell and make them think twice about it. Does that mean I intend to excuse, condone, or otherwise voice my support for the tactics of individual terrorism? No. But what other methods of fighting back do the Palestinians have?
I refer you to the link I provided in my last post to FinnAgain regarding the history of the foundation of Israel - a highly undemocratic process and one in which the Israelis clearly showed no interest in negotiation - and to the link buttonjockey provided in Post #30 showing, in condensed form, the details of the Oslo agreement in 1993. If you were a Palestinian, would you consider Barak’s offer worth negotiating over? Please read all the posts mentioned carefully before responding.
Here’s a hint: If I don’t say “The Palestinians should be excused from disregarding human rights because the Israelis don’t”, then you can attribute such sentiments to me. If you’re not sure what exactly I mean, ask. Otherwise, don’t succumb to the temptation to be an absolute fuckwit and put words in my mouth.
War is a despicable phenomenon. People, both military and civilian, die when wars are fought, and not just in Israel. I don’t like hearing the news of Israeli schoolchildren being blown up on a bus any more than I like hearing news of an Israeli helicopter blowing scores of Palestinians to smithereens just to take out the head of an organization (which, incidentally, Israel funded and encouraged in order to weaken the PLO). But it’s a war, and the Palestinians are going to turn to the methods available to them. If they had the Apache helicopters and the tanks and the air-to-surface missiles provided to Israel by the US, the war would assume a far different form than the one we see today.
And FinnAgain, in this very thread, seems to be excusing Israel’s actions on just this basis. Or am I misinterpreting statements like
or
or
There’s also the whole concept of putting words in another’s mouth, but that’s already been discussed.
You know what? I’m actually going to ignore statements that begin with phrases like this, and actually address the portions of your thread where you actually begin with what I am saying, rather than what you think I’m saying.
Oh wait, that was the end of the post.
Blerrgh. That should read “If I don’t say… then you shouldn’t, etc.”
It’s getting late and I’m outta here, so a couple of quick ones.
FinnAgain
I was referencing the events following the attack that we have been discussing. The gunmen were shot dead by Israeli soldiers - clearly defensive. Shortly after, helicopter gunships attacked a building in Gaza “housing a radio station with Hamas links” - this I contend to be an Olentzero aggressive action.
griffen2 , having re-read Olentzero’s post and his subsequent one, I’ll leave him to defend himself. In particular, statements like “You have no-one to blame for your troubles but yourselves” won’t help anyone.
Probably shouldn’t let me out alone with the bolding button. How did that get in there?
I don’t follow ME news that closely, they are depressing. I want an honest answer from you, Israel always target the guilty?
I seem to remember many cases where the IDF demolished the terrorist parent’s house. This is just one example of the barbaric behaviour of Israel because one of the most sacred principles of penal law is that all penal actions are personal: the criminal is guilty, not his father, not his son, not his barber. I am sure that a quick google can show us that in many cases Israel didn’t try to punsih the crime, it simply payed back to the Palestinians.-
The contradiction is that you complain because the palestinians target civilians, while Israel does exactly the same thing. Yes you can say that they are not targeting civilian, they are targeting the terrorist and to hell with the poor imbecile who happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
A minor nitpcik, I messed up with hipocrite, English is not my first language, not even my second. More than that, as the word is almost exactly the same in spanish I have to think that it’s origin is Latin, therefore the way I spell it is the correct one 
Dr. Heal thyself. A moment ago you were advocating against anologies and yet you employ a very poor one. A better one would be: “The man who murders a baby is not the same as the cop that shoots him and three bystanders who happened to be there, then demolishes the criminal’s grandmother house and builds a fence around the area”.
Do you agree with it?
I am giving the palestine terrorists a pass because… well because they are terrorists. You can’t hold that kind of people to a high standar, can you?
I do hold Israel to a different standard and, read very carefully: when responding to terrorist attacks, Israel can’t (if it wants to continue to be a democratic state) answer with crimes against humanity. Got it? It’s really simple to see, all you have to do to understand it is pulling your head out of your ass.
Skip the booze, go straight to the blowjob. It’ll save you both time.
Avenger, based on what I’ve learned about Israeli history just to be able to participate in threads on the subject outside the Pit, it’s my honest opinion. If the Zionists are going to connect with the fucking Mafia in order to smuggle arms into a country they seek to claim for themselves, they shouldn’t be surprised when the local population starts fighting back. It completely blows the cover off the lie that this has anything to do with anti-Semitism or Islam. It saddens me that Israelis are dying in terrorist attacks, but if the Zionists didn’t resort to brute force and terrorism to found Eretz Yisroel then their grandchildren wouldn’t be risking their lives to get a pizza in downtown Tel Aviv today.