Avenger I might be a twat, but I can read. Dumb cunt.
First, thanks much Griffen2, Guinness if they’ve got it.
Now… Olentzero
(and I prefer blowjobs with my pot and sports with my beer, sorry)
Before I answer you diversionary questions, allow me to address all of the points that you accidentally forget to remember.
-You claim civil disobedience never works, I provide two cites where it does, you ignore them.
-You claim that the mere existence of a Jewish state is a incitement to war, yet you ignore my questions on that subject.
-You claim that all attacks on Israel are justified yet refuse to provide one single example of a justified attack.
-You throw the word ‘genocide’ around and when it’s shown that you have poor semantic hygiene you simply ignore it.
Nope, confused and yet again avoiding the points I raised in an attempt to… what?
I said that the US didn’t arm and equip Israel as you claim they did pre ’47. You then claim to have answered this question and instead point me to discussion of… maps? Please show me a cite to prove that the CIA or OSA (which was it back then?) had ANYTHING to do with Israel. Prove your claims or retract, don’t bring up another issue.
And, simply to quibble, just because someone didn’t call you on your facts doesn’t mean you’re right on a different issue.
You say the sweetest things 
Gimme a kiss!
Hmmmm…
Methinks you are again confused.
Here’s a cite for youthe Arab plan to push the Jews into the sea was surely, surely, due to the Jews having weapons to defend themselves, they were askin’ for it!!!
Not only were the Zionists interested in peace, but they were also prepared to be attacked by all their Arab neighbors. And, lo and behold, that’s just what happened!
But yah, naughty naughty Jews for having weapons to defend themselves, they so started it and I’m telling mom!
Oh, but please show me how they ‘provoked’ the unified Arab attack upon their lives by having weapons, show me the logic for that one.
I agree with that statement. Unfortunately, that statement is also a direct attempt at misinformation in this context.
A) Israel did not attack the Palestinians, a politician visited a mosque and they went berserk.
B) They aren’t fighting like hell, they’re not fighting the soldiers, they’re killing civilians instead.
Individual terrorism? As opposed to Palestinan-state-sponsored-terrorism? Just checking.
Damn I could have sworn I cited two examples, silly me, there must not be any other methods than targeting civilians… what were those examples I used? Damn… maybe we should just ignore them if they contradict your point?
Hahahaha. Yep… are you aware of what a democratic/negotiated solution would have been like?
Jews: So, we’d uh, like to have a Homeland here.
Arabs: Well, we’d like to kill you all if you try.
Jews: Well, that’s a great platform to start negotiations.
No, of course not, were I a Palestinian the only logical thing to do would be to strap explosives to my torso and murder as many teenage Israelis as possible.
I’m glad you pointed out the obviousness of their reaction.
Glad they didn’t try to negotiate either.
(and no, just in case by a miracle you don’t ignore this point, genocide and an ‘unfair’ deal are not the same, sorry)
And, again, you don’t seem to understand the fundamental dynamic at work here…
See, you admit yourself the Israelis are targeting a terrorist leader
while the Palestinians are targeting civilians…
what valid military target does an Israeli school bus represent?
And what you have also missed is that people are not objecting to the PA’s right to defend itself. Self defense is indeed a valid response.
BUT
you cannot possibly argue that killing babies contributes to their self defense.
Sorry.
When they start engaging ONLY military targets, I’ll be willing to accept that they’re no longer scum. Until then, scum.
And… yes, your understanding of history is just straight out loopy.
The ‘local’ population, alone, didn’t fight back. (most of them fled because their Arab brethren were promising a genocide of the Jews and that’d be messy)
Israel was invaded by 7 Arab nations.
Don’t worry, ignore this point too, it contradicts your emotional appeals.
More to the point, why was Israel NOT allowed to arm itself as any sovereign nation would be? (ignore that point too, it’ll weaken your argument)
And simply to quibble, if you use the mafia to get weapons instead of buying them from, oh, say, the Soviets, you’re asking for trouble? Cuz, like, the mafia is naughty?
Riiiiiight. That seven nations attacked Israel because it was a Jewish state has nothing to do with anti-Semitism… with the historical nature of the Arab world’s hatred for Jews, with their own political platform that this was about genocide…
But it’s okay, ignore that too.
All those Arab nations were TERRIFIED that the fledgling nation had ANY WEAPONS AT ALL and were thus justified in attempting genocide. Yep. Makes sense to me.
You’re right!
If they had just submitted when the Arabs invaded and attempted to kill them all then there would be no violence today: all the Israelis would be dead.
Again, wonderful logic.
I applaud you.
Ahhh, thanks for the link. I must’ve missed it earlier in the thread.
I’m willing to give the IDF the benefit of the doubt, and if the radio station was being used to transmit Hamas propaganda, or serving as command-and-control, it’s a valid target of war.
Still, I’d like to see the BBC report more on exactly what these links are, if they even existed.
I have quite a bit of faith in Mosad and I’m confident that they pick their targets well.
Well, yep, Israel was perhaps wrong to do that. However, I’d also note that they didn’t murder the parents as a suicide bomber would have…
Unfortunately this is an ugly reality-on-the-ground.
There is a massive infrastructure of terrorism within Palestinian society.
There are many people who will offer moral and material aid to terrorists.
Sometimes all you can do is hope to disrupt the network which, yes, causes hardships for many people…
But then again, if the Palestinians would police themselves, Israel would have no need of doing it…
And, further… I’m again willing to accept another solution as long as someone actually puts one forward!
Yes the situation is horrible, but when you’re facing a society of people who support or turn a blind eye to the murder of your civilians, what do you do?
Just saying “Israel doesn’t have the right to defend itself” won’t hold water.
Tell me what Israel is allowed to do in your book and we’ll see if it works.
If by ‘exactly the same thing’ you mean totally different things, then yes.
You do understand what the word ‘target’ means, right?
Well, I wouldn’t phrase it quite like that, but yes.
They are trying to kill terrorists.
If they wanted to kill Palestinian civilians, they could’ve already killed them all.
Thus, they aren’t targeting civilians.
QED.
A good point and thank you, I’m not immune to sloppy thinking.
However.
I feel that analogy would still stand.
Baby-murderer, cop, innocent passers-by shot in the crossfire.
Analogy is still tight.
But you are right, and I’ll put it in operational terms instead.
The IDF soldiers who fire the missile at the terrorist leader aren’t morally equivalent to the terrorist leader who sends out young boys and girls to murder Israeli civilians.
As for the fence, what on earth would y’all find OK for Israel to do?
Fight back in a total war? NO
Fight back in a limited war? NO
Fight back via assassination? NO
Fight back by building a defensive barrier? NO.
Pardon me if I don’t see many options left.
Yep, I can. And I will. Watch me.
Just because you are a terrorist doesn’t mean that, oh, whoops, all of a sudden you’re given total carte blanche. Neither side gets a ‘pass’. Especially not because of such a ridiculous reason as you admitting that one side used the tactics of terror.
Again, as I’ve stated. Everybody says what responses are NOT justified. And I’m even willing to agree!!!
IF AND ONLY IF
you show another alternative that is viable.
Come on, if your position is valid you MUST be able to show me one single viable action the Israelis can take.
Well?
Damn… Olentzero wants to watch some hardcore guy-on-guy oral action and you think I’ve somehow managed to get my cranium into my rectum… y’all have funny ways of having fun
Kindly bring them to GD which is the place for such debates and kindly make the effort to use decent language and kindly refrain from commenting on my “character” or “intentions”.
Because if this is the way you plan to open a debate with me, you shall not get me to make the effort to reply.
Salaam. A
After going (fast, admittedly) through that page and several more on that webring (all of which sport the Israelian flag…), I’m afraid I’ll have to ask (nicely) for a more credible cite. See what I mean?
That’s just fucked up. This is coming from my side? :o
Is this what is constantly referred to as “having a boner” for someone on the SDMB?
I don’t agree with you, FinnAgain and furthermore, I wish upon you a handjob performed by a smelly, hemiplegic homeless person with warts.
Regarding the position that Israel doesn’t intentionally strike civilian targets.
I assume everybody’s more or less familiar with these numbers - if we assume 1 terrorist for every victim, and a perfect rate of success in killing all those terrorists, this would give us 2.5 “collateral” deaths for every terrorist taken out. I’m ignoring suicide bombers here obviously.
Either the position that Israel avoids targeting uninvolved civilians is somewhat disingenuous, or there are a huge number of rear-echelon terrorists.
*Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli security forces 1987-2003 : 3,478
Israeli killed by Palestinian 1987 - 2003 Civilian : 765 Military : 377*
http://www.btselem.org/
Withdrawing the settlements from Gaza and the West Bank has to at least be worth a try.
Actually, not disingenuous at all as long as we’re sticking to what words mean.
Israel doesn’t target civilians, but they do get hit as collateral damage.
Yes, killing civilians is a bad thing, heck, I’ll put it in caps
it is a
Bad Thing.
A Bad Thing for Israel or Palestine.
But there is an added moral dimension when you target the civilians for death vs targeting terrorist leaders and being unable to get them, at all by any other means.
Again, I will make this appeal to any and all who are reading this thread.
I will, in a heartbeat, agree with you if only you can show me a valid course of action Israel can take.
And I think y’all would agree, if you have a valid position, you must, must, must be able to give me one single little itty bitty solution that Israel could use.
Otherwise, by logical necessity, you’re forced to accept that it is indeed war and the IDF is indeed acting out of military necessity.
UselessGit
You are right, I will endeavor to find an Arab website which reprints the call of the Arab League for genocide… unfortunately now is time for snuggles and illicit activities and I’ll be back online later. (with a better cite)
P.S. hemiplegic?
I always make it a rule to learn words that are new to me, and I have no idea what that means. Care to enlighten me?
Aldebaran
Gotcha. I’ve toned down my post and made a GD OP of it which you can find here.
Your move.
… is Griffen2 coming over? 
Regarding hemiplegic: I was going for the word that means “missing both legs” but, aparently, “hemiplegic” means “completely paralysed on one side of the body”. Which makes for an even funkier handjob, actually. :dubious:
I’ll go to sleep now.
At first sight, you have a point. But if you find that over a number of years you’re consistently killing say 5 bystanders for every terrorist you target, you might want to start questioning your methods.
I’m also not sure how you define terrorist leaders - does this include such things as firing on rioting crowds with live ammo ?
Good for you.
Again, be honest. Do you really think Palestinians can police themselves when their so called leader is under siege from Israel?
Ok I´ll answer this one, again read carefully, Israel could use standard police methods. It could arrest the suspects, interrogate them, put them on trial, etc.
The population is hostile? Use the army for the arrests, if someone shoots, shoot back.
Don’t tell me that you can siege Arafat, bulldoze houses and you can’t arrest someone.
There will be difficulties, more risk and possible more soldiers killed. But Israel will have the moral highground, and possibly, who can know, perhaps the situation in the territories will improve, (God knows it can’t get worse).-
I agree, the IDF soldiers are the moral equivalent to the terrorist grunts. Israel leaders are morally equivalent to terrorist leaders.
Well, fences aren’t that cool. Do you know the history of the Great Wall or Antonino’s Wall? At the end, people with the right attitude (the Huns for example) will defeat those defensive measures.
And you have to agree that the Palestinian Fence is not fair. It is built over undisputed palestinian territory (at least a part off it), it turns Palestina into a Guetto (sp?). You could say, at least, that it isn’t the most politically correct thing Israel could have done.
I am not giving palestinian terrorist a “pass”. They are terrorist, they are supposed to be the bad guys and they are also supposed to kill main and destroy innocent lifes. Israel, on the other hand, aspires to something else.
I am sorry for that, I am very sensible about my english, you struck a nerve. My apologies. Actually for a right wing, militaristic, bigot, you are not such a bad guy
There’s a world of difference between asking how effective civil disobedience will be in a given situation and claiming that civil disobedience will never work. Please point to where I said the latter, and not where you inferred I said it.
But, since we’re on the subject, you do bring up an interesting point. The examples you cite of civil disobedience, Mohandas K. Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr, used civil disobedience as a tool for fighting oppression, not enforcing it - Gandhi against British imperialism, King against racism in US society. I cannot recall a time when the British Army in India, or the Ku Klux Klan (and the racist police and state governments) employed civil disobedience to achieve their political goals. Are you therefore, by calling on the Palestinians to employ such tactics, implicitly admitting that the Palestinians are the victims of oppression in this case? I doubt it, since you continue emphasizing that Israel is acting in self-defense against the inherent anti-Semitism of the Arab states surrounding it. If Israel is the victim, shouldn’t you be calling on them to use nonviolence to further ensure the existence and security of the Jewish homeland? Apparently not:
So what’s sauce for the goose cannot be sauce for the gander. Essentially, then, your call for nonviolence on the part of the Palestinians is asking them to lay down their arms in the middle of a war. Do you think that, if the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto had not armed themselves and fought back and instead engaged in nonviolent tactics, the Nazis would have left them alone and not shipped them off to the camps?
The foundation of any state, when based on occupation and aggressive expansion, is an incitement to war. Look at the history of the United States, and the European colonies that preceded them, from the middle of the seventeenth century to the close of the nineteenth. From King Philip’s War to Custer’s Last Stand - two centuries of war on the white settlers and immigrants by the local populations, who were steadily and aggressively pushed off the land they had inhabited for millennia, and who were vilified as subhuman, bloodthirsty savages for fighting back.
Sound at all familiar?
Where? I claim to understand why the Palestinians are fighting back, and I claim to understand why they are resorting to the methods they’re currently using. Nothing more. Have I claimed that the attacks by other countries in the region are justified, or are you just inferring that from statements you choose to stretch beyond their meanings?
Sure, when the Jews got thrown into concentration camps and were starved to death, it was genocide. When the Israelis do the same thing to the Palestinians, it’s self-defense. You really think those bantustans on what remains of Palestinian territory exist as some sort of independent paradise, where the standard of living is anywhere close to equal that of the Israelis? Israel has the upper hand, politically, economically, and militarily, and they’re putting the squeeze harder and harder on the Palestinians. They do not want an independent, healthy Palestinian state and they’re doing their damnedest to make sure it doesn’t happen.
In an attempt to demonstrate that I have backup for my claims that the state of Israel’s founding was a provocation that could not but stir up resentment in the region and provoke a fightback from the Palestinian population.
Where? I’ve said the US has a dog in this fight, and they’ve been pumping that dog full of steroids for the past 55 years. Or do you deny that the US has given Israeli billions of dollars in aid, both in cash and in kind, since its founding?
I made no such claims and I defy you to prove it.
True, but I’ve been called on facts many a time before, and I seriously doubt anyone on the pro-Israel side would hesitate to call me on bad facts - this is a contentious issue and untruths are not tolerated at all. If the cites, sources, and analysis were at all weak or fallacious, I can guarantee you I would have heard about it from the opposing side.
Aside from the extreme weakness of that link (do they have anything besides an unattributed quote?!) the Zionist land grab facilitated by the UN partition plan (assembled and proposed with no input from the Palestinians themselves) is what stirred up Arab resentment.
If you’ll be so kind as to show me where I made this absurd claim, I’ll be glad to oblige.
One of a string of thousands of provocations Israel has used to stir up Palestinian anger. It’s not like this came out of the blue.
It’s war, buckomelad. If the Palestinians actually had a well-equipped, well-trained army, they’d be fighting the Israeli army. Instead, they have stones, slings, and homemade bombs, and have been pushed to the point of not caring who dies, as long as they’re Israelis, by Israel itself. Not the Qur’an. Not Islam in general. Israel.
Which Palestinian state is that, please? Is Hamas the Palestinian government? The PLO? Or is the Palestinian Authority directly funding each and every suicide bomber?
You have any cites besides your obvious anti-Palestinian bigotry to back this assertion up?
No, of course they’re not… but the latter is part and parcel of the former in this case. Form a bunch of bantustans on land that wasn’t yours to parcel out in the first place, then surround them with checkpoints and tanks and illegal settlements and roads that enable you to go anywhere you please while cutting the locals off from each other, cut the population off from the decent farmland, from clean water sources, from anything that would actually help them towards a decent standard of living… you get the idea.
Expansionist land grab at the political, economic, and social expense of the indigenous population, which in turn promotes a vicious fightback. What’s not to understand?
Uh huh, and they killed dozens of civilians to do so. Why try to excuse what they did by spuriously claiming you know what they wanted to do?
None. Where did I say it did?
And where did I argue that? Again, there’s a world of difference in saying “This is war, and if civilians die in it, that is a tragedy” and saying “Israeli civilians must die in this war because of why the Palestinians are fighting”. Please point out where I asserted the latter.
Give 'em the Apache helicopters and Abrams tanks, then.
Then my sources must be loopy too. Blasted anti-Semitic UN!
Um… 'cos they weren’t a sovereign nation before 1948? Again, it wasn’t the possession of weapons that pissed the surrounding Arab nations off, it was the land grab - coupled with the push into territory they were told, by the UN, they weren’t allowed to have.
UselessGit, what would you have me say? It is the reckless actions of people like those FinnAgain’s family that packed more powder into the keg that became the Israel/Palestine situation. And he’s boasting about it. That’s just fucking sick.
I googled "In 1948, 3 years after the Holocaust, and before the birth of modern-day Israel, Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League publicly stated on May 15: “There will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre [against the Jews] which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.”
found a bunch of cites, not such which’d be acceptable to you, but it does seem the quote is legit…
[indymedia, don’t know if you trust it [/url[
[url=http://www.argofutures.com/images/march_31.htm] but maybe the NY Times i ok?](http://nantes.indymedia.org/article.php3?id_article=1165)
So, the quote is factual.
The Arab nations are on record as wanting genocide in '48.
(whee!)
You are correct, 5 per terrorist seems high.
but simply imagine the casualties if a group of Israeli soldiers were conducting a door-to-door hunt for a fugitive…
reminds me of Jenin.
And, simply to quibble, but if you throw a rock at someone you can kill them or wound them.
All this bullshit about “we were only throwing rocks!”
is, well, bullshit.
Were I a soldier and you were throwing rocks at me, I might be tempted to fire back and protect myself. Moreoever, there is footage, and I can get cites if you want, of PA thugs with AK’s firing at Israeli soldiers during some of those ‘riots’.
I could also point you to sites where the Palestinians try to get as many children into the frey as possible for postiive media coverage…
and yeah, I’ll get those cites for you if you want.
Well, evidently they can’t police themselves when their so called leader isn’t under siege either…
that didn’t work so well last time
It is also worth noting that the PA were calling Jinin a ‘massacre’ when their own red cross was telling them it wasn’t. Do I smell media manipulation?
Like Godzilla was anti-social, but I digress…
Exactly… send the army into a tightly packed residential neighborhood and have a firefight… that will surely keep casualties down and stop people from saying Israel is invading… oh, wait…
Well, Ramalla isn’t Jinin…
And, these ‘difficulties’ you speak of would translate into an enormous tide against Israel even if they were successful. I can see the headlines now…
“Israel re-occupies PA territory”
“Gunmen fight IDF troops in door-to-door searches”
“Many civilians feared dead.”
And… again… if you admit right out that your plan will result in more soldiers dying and, I contend, it wouldn’t work, I see no reason to choose the moral high ground and be dead.
Um…
Were that not just rhetoric
you would of course be able to show me IDF leaders giving instructions to target civilians?
Or perhaps IDF grunts who are going out on missions of ‘civilian slaughter’ or some such?
So… you don’t want to allow Israel the right to a passive defense because it might not work?
I don’t see any valid logic in your position I’m sorry to say.
I could also say, and, I think I will
FUCK political correctness
Yes, I have slight issue with the proposed route of the fence
but not with the fence itself.
If they changed the route, would it be ok with you?
And, no… Palestine wouldn’t be a ghetto, just cut off from free interaction with Israel.
But but but!
You just GAVE them a pass!
They’re bad guys, so that’s their job, right?
Israel aspires to something more?
It is ironic that the group that you ADMIT is composed of murderers is ok because they’re the bad guys but the ones who you yourself suggest are the ‘good guys’ are judged more harshly… so all Israel needs to do to be cool in your book is adopt Palestinian terror tactics?
Being that I’m a left-libertarian and consider all people to be one race without silly linguistic definitions fucking things up, I think I’ll consider you a tad uninformed about me.
Sound familiar so far?
Continuing…
How sad that you are filled with so much hate for a People who have long been the victims of hatred and mass murder. We’re finally strong enough to fight back and not just let people round us up and kill us, and you don’t like it? Too bad. Get used to it because, as has become our mantra…
Never again.
First, Shayna , right fucking on.
Blaming the victim is unacceptable in the case of rape, but trendy in the case of Israel.
Although Olentzero considers my family to be monsters for not laying down and allowing themselves to be murdered, a few of us still understand facts and the cry “Never again!” still has meaning for some of us.
Now, on to the circus:
Um… you ignored my point, so I figured that you ignored it?
So either my point directly contradicts your argument and you willfully ignored it or my point contradicts your argument and you just accidentally didn’t realize?
So no, I don’t infer you said it wouldn’t work, I infer you know it WOULD work and that’s why you avoided talking about it.
You’re really not getting this, are you?
Nope, I’m not saying that. YOU ARE. And thus civil disobedience applies to your claim.
Because: one responds to oppression with civil disobedience and a war with war.
The Second Intifada is a declaration of war on Israel.
When someone is sending suicide bombers at you, and you do nothing, you die. Civil disobedience doesn’t dissuade murderers.
I don’t know, what’s the name for someone without the ability to see differences between two different things?
Are you being paid for this? Because, man, this is pure grade A propaganda. The PA launches a war, and then can’t lay down their arms in the middle of the war they started…
yeah, that’d be asking too much.
I’ve already dealt with the spurious claim that Israel is attempting genocide, so your analogy is both moronic and insulting.
Especially since it is the Arabs who are on record as wanting genocide.
Mmmm hmmmm.
See, I wonder if you honestly believe what you’re saying.
You are aware that you’ve just made up your own timeline?
Israel was attacked by all of its neighbors in ’48. Explain to me how that was a ‘[basis] of occupation and aggressive expansion?’
If you hadn’t noticed, your willful ignorance of facts is getting bothersome.
And I can’t help but question exactly why you’d ignore hundreds of years of history and claim that the Jews were the aggressors… What exactly are you trying to ‘prove’?
Again, propaganda.
You can’t “fight back” WHEN YOU LAUNCH THE WAR!!!
We all understand why the Palestinians are fighting, we understand why they resort to their methods:
They are desperate and have a morally bankrupt leadership that wants to keep them poor and in dire straits so they’re easier to manipulate.
Um, no, I’ve been referring to the exact text of what you’ve written, that other people have called you on. Perhaps you want to back away from your position now but I don’t think we’ll let you, we have your text in this thread as proof.
I don’t have to stretch anything. You demonize Israel but don’t deign to mention Lebanon and Syria, Egypt Jordan and Transjordan, etc…
One must ask, is your blindness willful or simply ignorant?
No, when the Israellis do the same thing it’s you lying through your damn teeth.
Israel is setting up CONCENTRATION CAMPS?
You’re just a liar.
Or you’re a ‘skilled’ propagandist and you’re trying to convince us that refugee camps are concentration camps and the fact that it is the ARAB nations who won’t let the Palestinians leave the camps and become citizens again…
Which is it? Ignorant or evil?
Gee… a refugee camp doesn’t have the same standard of living as an industrialized nation? That obviously points out some horrible horrible, oh, no, wait, that’s pretty damn logical.
And, as I’ve noted, the PA’s economy is directly dependant on Israel’s economy. Thus, their lowered standard of living is their own fault for starting war.
That qualifies as a big “duh”
Ahhhh… is your tinfoil hat name brand?
Give proof that Israel doesn’t want peace, because I’ve seen the polls, and the referendums, and the offers… funny, if they didn’t want peace they could, oh, I donno, just like bomb the hell out of the PA territories?
But I’m sure they’ve got an Evil Zionist Plot to explain that one too, eh?
AGAIN YOU ARE STATING THAT THE FOUNDING OF A JEWISH HOMELAND IS EXPLICITLY AN ACT OF WAR.
again
GIVE PROOF OR RETRACT
AND DON’T YOU DARE IGNORE IT YET AGAIN.
And by the way, what a charming attempt… no facts, no data, but a charming attempt.
So you admit that the US didn’t supply Israel with military and economic support before ’48 and you were full of shit?
Just checking because you ignored that one too.
you defy me to prove it, eh?
See my post number 88
and then your post 91 where you claim your maps will somehow show how America supported Israel pre ’48. (do I really need to quote the exchange back at you?)
Damn!
Propaganda is kinda natural to you, eh?
You are aware that if the UN has a mandate for something that legally it isn’t a land-grab? Just wondering if you wanted some facts in with your hatred.
Whoa!
They didn’t consult a people who didn’t exist?
Stop the fucking presses!
So, are you going to be honest and admit that there was a history of ‘Arab resentment’ (read: Anti-Semitism)?
Pro’ly not…
Um… you do realize you call your claim absurd, claim you’re not making it, then make it in the very next sentence?
Seriously though, you have a bright future in Propaganda. Claiming that Israel’s mandate to exist was in-and-of-itself an act of war. (or are you going to back away from your statement for a second time?)
So let’s see… the Arab nations that attacked Israel in ’48 didn’t have weapons? All those burnt out tanks in the Israeli desert and pure Movie Magic, eh?
And, pushed to the point? The Al Aqsa Intifada was political in cause, and there are a wealth of cites to back that up. So don’t be claiming victim status for those who started the war.
Right…
Mr Minister of Information, how should we deal with the pesky fact that Muslims have a long recorded irrational hatred of Jews?
Why, by blaming the victims of course!
Paging the Minister of Information, some facts have come into conflict with your position.
Fatah is Arafat’s own party, and they have claimed responsibility for terrorism, forgetting Hamas.
And, yep, Hamas is indeed part of the PLO, sorry.
But please, disregard this fact because anybody who disagrees must be bigoted against the Palestinians…
while you’re at it, disregard these facts too
Oh, and since Arafat said it himself, it must not be true
oh no, it must be true
not true
true…
Damn, what’s the propaganda on this one?
Don’t worry, just keep repeating Mr Minister of Information
“It’s the Jews fault. It’s the Jews fault. It’s the Jews fault.”
As another great Propagandist said
it’s the really big lies that people will believe if you say ‘em enough.
of course, of course.
Ahhh. I see!
She was asking for it!
When attacked by all their Arab neighbors they were, really, pushing into territory they were told they couldn’t have.
I’m glad you’re not troubled by pesky ‘facts’ or ‘data’ or ‘truth’
Don’t worry, it IS all the evil Jews fault, you’re right.
they were told, by the UN, they weren’t allowed to have.
[/QUOTE]
That’s correct. My family who you want to see in hell, protected themselves from being murdered by your ‘victims’
Disgusting, just disgusting!
What do these uppity Jews think they’re doing!
BY THE WAY, YOU’VE AGAIN IGNORED ANOTHER POINT, WHY DOES A SOVERIGN NATION NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO ARM ITSELF?
Originally Posted by Asteroide
Oddly enough, the actions taken by the terrorist scum that started this whole thread worked EXACTLY against that course of action by Sharon. :smack: What we need to consider then is that Hamas et al. don’t want the IDF gone. They don’t want a nation that exists (even if only in the minds of Israel’s leaders) alongside Israel. This would mean that they’re in charge of their own population, and they just lost a large portion of their ability to scape-goat an outside occupation. I honestly don’t think that they could survive that challenge. So to hang on to power they directed the slaughter of a pregnant woman and her daughters.
They will not negotiate for a country. They will not accept a country thrust upon them. The pattern that seems to be developing is that they don’t want a country at all.
As for civilian casualties during military operations, the accepted military law is that you attempt to minimize them. So in order to attack terrorists operating out of PA “controlled” zones the IDF uses force. Fine, this is self defence and we can’t argue with any nations right to use force in self defence (or, the UN can’t as it’s right there in the charter.) So the action (targeting a terrorist leader/command and control site/training camp) is legal, the civilian casualties that may arise from it are tragic, but as long as efforts were taken to minimize them, legal.
And yes, using missles is the worst course of action for the IDF to take… accept for any other. [with appologies to Mr. Churchill]