an article from the times with that quote, that’s all I’ll post right now’’
(on the Arab quote indicating that Genocide was their aim in '48)
Whoops… thanks Asteroide, I missed your suggestion of a solution.
Unfortuantely many elements of the PA do not want to see ANY Jewish state. They do not want a two state solution, they want a single Arab nation.
If you need I can find cites of groups which admit they will strike within the pre '67 boundary.
Just a Zionist checking in…
Olentzero, you’re a bigot, a pig and a dumbfuck. I have nothing but the highest form of contempt for people like you.
FinnAgain, Keep it up. I tired of defending Israel on the SDMB years ago. It’s good to see someone who hasn’t been worn out by all of the anti-Israel bullshit.
Sam
Gawd You’d think people see the light, after all the shown differences of killing Palestine style -just murder as many Jews as you can. Including pregnant women and children - and the accidental deaths made by the Israeli military.
What’s the matter with you, people? Do you all have shit in your eyes? Or has a mix between anti-American feelings and anti-semitism melted your brain?
Don’t - for a moment - think you’re ‘liberal’, defending Palestine scum. You’re not. That’s over. You merely look like some pathetic sod, running after the facts.
Yes, ** FinnAgain** Thank you for trying to open some eyes. It’s reassuring to see a real liberal with sense.
*and again: I’m not Jewish. I’m a lefty. I have “no dog in this fight” - other than protesting to the nauseous making murders of innocent Israeli. *
Arafat’s PA Terms Settlers “Terrorists”, Declines to Condemn Murder of
Israeli Family
The Monday morning broadcast of Yasser Arafat’s Voice of Palestine (VOP)
said that the settlers from Neveh Dekalim, five of whom were murdered
yesterday, were “mukharibun” - terrorists. The reference to the settlers as
terrorists was in a VOP report that the settlers were preparing to build a
new neighborhood in the settlement. Once again today, VOP did not condemn
the attack yesterday that killed a pregnant mother and her four children but
did vigorously condemned the “cowardly act” by Israel in attacking a Hamas
radio station which had exhorted Palestinians to carry out further attacks
against Israel. There were no reported casualties in this Israeli attack.
The article above is from IMRA’s website. It appears that the scum rises right to the top of the PA echelon.
FinnAgain,
You’re wasting your time with Olentzero. Personally, he’s a pretty nice guy, but politically, he’s about as grounded in the real world as an invisible pink unicorn. The man is a committed communist-as in he really, truly believes in the vision of Lenin and Marx, and will do anything to twist, bend or ignore pesky real life facts that get in the way of that great vision. Propaganda? He lives and breathes propaganda. At the last dopefest I was at, he was bragging about the progress his political party was making, as far as I was able to tell, the great party to unite the workers of the world had had a sudden upsurge in membership-a couple of goth kids joined or something-and they had struk a blow for the terrible opressed trees and lampposts in Washington DC by liberating them with flyers. Any real life examples you bring up are dismissed as lies or distortions, even when he’s contradicting himself, seeming without realizing it, and if one points to the failure of every communist regime in history he becomes all frothy at the mouth and claims that the vision of paradise was betraied by power hungry men, and that if he’s just given a chance to do it right, why, communism will spread peace and brotherhood across the globe. He fails to see that true communism wasn’t betrayed by evil, power hungry men, true communism inevitably leads to the creation of evil, power hungry men because of it’s inherent flaws. He’s smart, well versed in history-at least from a skewed perspective- and eloquent. It’s too bad he’s bugshit nuts on the subject.
I lurked a long time before I registered. I second the praise of FinnAgain.
I shy away from any debate about Israel in other places where I lurk or post because the demonization of the country just winds up depressing me completely.
Israel is not perfect but far too much of the criticism leveled against it – particularly in the Arab/Muslim world – is nothing more than barely disguised anti-Semitism.
Oh and FTR, I lean mostly to the left.
After having read this thread, and having had a nice night, I am in a good mood all in all. So I’ve decided to go along with the lunatic fringe of the opposition and tell a story. Indulge me.
Once, long ago when the nations of man were still fractured and young there arose the Jews! Mighty warrior people who ravaged entire continents! The Jewish Horde roamed around for a while, raping, pillaging, generally making a mess of the entire world. They kicked puppies for fun.
Then one day the rest of the world wised up and decided that the Jewish Horde was an unacceptable menace. So as the Jews were finishing their morning matza brye (a little bit crispy, not too much egg please), the rest of the world set upon them.
Victory!
Despite the strange ray guns and alien technology wielded by the Jewish Horde the goyim showed ‘em who was boss!
Somehow a bunch of years went by and some stuff probably happened somewhere.
And so then, like, some more stuff happened. And then in the 1940’s the weather in Germany got too cold and we all know the Jews are wimps so they all just like, spontaneously died, like, millions of them!
The Germans were very sad and spent a lot of time crating up the dead Jews art, money, clothing, shoes, and the fillings in their teeth.
Cowardly Sneak Attack!
Armed with magic from the future, the seemingly vanquished Jewish Horde descended upon Palestine and ate all the Palestinian babies.
Things pretty much got worse after that.
I hate these threads. I’ve never seen one person change their opinion. Not once.
And that’s on and off this board.
It is my opinion that both the Israelis and the Palestinians believe that they are acting in defense.
Shayna, I don’t think anyone will argue with you that anti-Semitism has long been a factor. But it isn’t the only factor.
The vow of “Never again!” only begins with the Jewish people and surely must extend to genocide wherever it is found. How horrible that it does happen again and again – the former Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, Rowanda, the Sudan. The Palestinians also see themselves as endangered and threatened. Right or wrong, they also view the situation through a similar filter.
Is anyone familiar with the peace proposals of the Israeli Peace Bloc (Gush Shalom)? Here is an excerpt from their website:
Unfortunately true, although interestingly I’ve found there to be more diversity of viewpoint, and openness to debate amongst Israelis themselves than amongst Euros and US - so maybe there’s still room for some optimism.
Why would this prevent Israel from trying to implement withdrawal of the settlements ? Why does what the Palestinian’s want dictate Israel’s actions ?
Fact is, Israel is holding all the cards - massively superior military, massively superior economy, and is the only player in this situation that has any kind of central control, and the ability to implement far-reaching decisions.
FinnAgain I don’t believe it’s useful to frame the conflict in terms of “good guys vs bad guys” - if we believe that peace is desirable, Israel has to try something new. The fear I’ve heard from most Israelis is that withdrawing the settlements is such a divisive (amongst Israelis) issue that the state wouldn’t survive the attempt. And in the best of cases, ending the settlements would be political suicide for the government which tries it.
Israel needs to choose between an expansionist policy and an attempt at a peaceful settlement.
I believe that the next move belongs to Israel, and no amount of finger-pointing can change that.
I wonder how this thread would turn out if Rune started it today, in relation to the two people killed and 22 injured by Israeli missiles with the title “Israeli Scum” and someone else came in and made disparaging remarks about Judaism not being a religion of peace.
What if it was called “American Scum” in relation to the soldiers torturing prisoners in Iraq?
If people are so quick to call this a war to defend Israeli actions, then why not the same standard applied to Palestinian terrorist actions?
insert condemning terrorist actions boilerplate here
Dave, goddamnit! I have had more than enough of this stupid fucking tactic of yours. I’ve never seen you once actually make a contribution to a thread in which I’m heavily involved beyond “Olentzero’s a nice guy but he’s a Communist.” What the fuck is your goddamn problem?! Do you feel you’re entitled to continually post these backhanded compliments (and I use the term loosely) because we know each other personally, and because I’ve been to your house for parties? Or is it because my politics haven’t actually been brought up in this thread yet, and you feel it is your duty to add fuel to the flame fest so we can all watch Olentzero’s blood pressure rise as a result of the Red-baiting that will ensue and he comes this much closer to flaming out permanently?
Fuck you. Just… fuck you. I like Robyn a whole hell of a lot, and right now I can’t even stomach the thought of seeing her at a Dopefest because it means you’ll be around. You wanna fight ignorace, fine. You wanna actually debate an issue, well and good. But if all you can contribute to a thread, even a Pit thread, is something like the above quoted post, shut the fuck up and stay the fuck out. You’re being worse than useless.
This thread is playing out differently today than it would have a year ago.
A year ago, the most heated arguments were about US/Iraq. Israel/Palestine was on the sideline. In the ensuing year, the US/Iraq argument has been comprehensively examined, and the US side has been found to have been total bullshit.
I’m willing to forgive people who wish to examine the Israel/Palestine argument, and who suspect that the Israeli side may be total bullshit as well.
Note that I’m well aware that there’s a significant difference between the people of the US, and the neo-fascist asshole President. Similarly, I’m aware that the paleo-fascist asshole Sharon is not the same entity as the people of Israel.
I think the moral abyss separating 1) going up to a pregnant woman and her children and purposefully shooting them several times and 2) accidentally hitting civilians while going for legitimate targets, already has been sufficiently dealt with.
There’re probably about ten threads already dealing with those disgusting incidents of torture, incidentally wherein no one was killed – least of all a pregnant women or small children. Yet I see no massively popular American organisation calling them “heroic operations”, and I do believe I completely missed the part where numerous American organisations rushed to take credit for backing the perpetrators. I don’t recall Aljazeera describing the perpetrators as ”freedom fighters”. And strangely enough I don’t remember hearing the American leader refusing to condemn them, and I also completely missed the partying in the streets.
I just see very little in common between the two episodes. The prisoner torture incidents were stand-alone acts of individuals, in no way endorsed by the US government. The terrorists murders was the deliberate act of a large organisation endorsed or directly controlled by the Palestinian government (or what goes for such), and used as a political tool to further an (otherwise despicable – the complete annihilation of Israel) agenda.
Rune, I wasn’t trying to equate the two (or three) situations. I was just commenting on your poor choice of thread titles. If you had started something like “Israeli scum” and started casting aspertions on Judaeism some people would be quick to jump on you with sheltered allegations of Anti-Semitism. Just as people would be quick to flame OP’s that consisted of “American Scum” based on the dispicable actions of some members of its army.
I’m just sick of people jumping at the oppertunity to label an entire people and an entire religion based on the actions of the few.
Palestine really needs to get it’s house in order. In the abense of any hope of that happening, terrorist organisations will make hay in the lack of an opertunistic sun shining for the Palestinian people.
I really can’t see any “moral abyss”. I can certainly see the difference between the two cases, but no moral abyss.
Try two different hypotheticals:
Case 1) Officer John Smith walks into a shopping mall, intending to kill “suspect A”. He opens fire with a machine gun, killing suspect A and six others, including a pregnant woman.
Case 2) Terrorist John Smith walks into a shopping mall, intending to kill people. He opens fire with a machine gun, killing seven random people, including a pregnant woman.
IMHO, both terrorist John Smith and Officer John Smith deserve punishment. Not necessarily exactly the same punishment, maybe Officer John Smith deserves less. OTOH, maybe he deserves more because he should have known better and could have arranged things better.
Saddam and his sons have RAPED WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND CUT OFF THE EARS OF MEN who wouldnt fight with them! So How can anyone compare us to those HITLERS! WE ARE FAR FROM THEM! Yes who wants war but how could we just sit back and let these sicks fucks do this to their own OR US! I do have family over there fighting and they seem to not want to publish what GOOD we have done for their country! They need us right now and we are helping them.
Shayna, I am anti-Zionist. Not anti-Semitic. There is a huge difference between the two, and you are doing all of us a disservice by conflating them.
I do not hate Jews. I do not despise Judaism. I’ve argued heatedly with Black nationalists over why the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” is just so much bullshit. Same for the ZOG. I don’t believe there is any vast Jewish conspiracy to control the world’s media. I have Jewish comrades (who are just as anti-Zionist as I am) and, trite as this sounds, I’ve dated Jewish women. Hell, I’m teaching myself Yiddish a bit at a time.
I do not hate Jews.
I hate Zionism. I hate the fact that they use the Holocaust to elevate themselves to the status of martyrs and hide behind it whenever criticism of their actions arises. Based on the research I’ve done, I believe the foundation of the state of Israel, and the actions the Zionists took in the decades previous to its founding, were a gross injustice against the Palestinians. I don’t like seeing either Palestinians or Israelis die, but the situation is exactly analogous to that of the British and French colonies here in America three hundred years ago - foreign settlers are occupying land by hook, by crook, or by force, supported by imperialist states, and the indigenous population is fighting back with whatever means are available to them. It was a bloody business then, and it’s a bloody business now. It’s impossible to remain neutral.
Mullar Omar on a pong stick! Demostyles get thou arse back under thy stone!
Yeah ok. The scum part was perhaps a poor choice of words; it was written in the heat of the moment just after I hear of the murders. The were Palestinians and they were scum – but of course not all Palestinians are scum.
Yeah ok. The Palestinian scum was perhaps a poor choice of words; it was written in the heat of the moment just after I heard of the murders. They were Palestinians and they were scum, as were all who backed them, supported them and cheered them on – but of course not all Palestinians are scum.