Preview, thy will be done…
For this to be correct, the analogy would have to be: “Terrorist John Smith walks into a shopping mall, intending to kill people. He opens fire with a machine gun, killing seven random people, including a pregnant woman. Seeing this, Officer John Smith opens fire on Terrorist John Smith, killing him but also unfortunately hitting six innocent bystanders”. What all of you anti-Israel people can’t seem to get through your heads is that without the Palistinian terrorists starting the cycle of murder/retaliation, Israel would be blowing up terrorist leaders at all. All this juvinile cry baby “Wah, big bad Israel hit the poor widdle Palistinians back” whining is assinine.
Olentzero, I felt compelled by honesty to note that you are a nice guy in person, because you generally are. The unfortunate fact is that your political beliefs are beyond the lunatic fringe. On several occasions on these boards I have asked you direct questions about about specific issues, and your response has always been to completely avoid the questions “Well, I talked about that here before, do a search”. It’s <i>because</i> you’re a decent guy in person that I persued it so hard, wanting to give you the opportunity to defend yourself or at least explain. Sadly, you have repetedly declined to do both. FinnAgain is a newer poster, I simply warned him because I hate to see him waste time with you, as you believe in your version of history with the fervent passion of the True Believer, and thus are impervous to facts. I am sorry if you feel that my statements here will adversly affect your attendence at dopefests, rest assured I will treat you no differently than I ever have, because my disagreements with you are not personal, as I have repeatedly stated.
Finally, thank you for the good laugh in your last post. Your statement:"You wanna actually debate an issue, well and good. ", inlight of your repeated refusals to answer questions I’ve put to you in the past, gave me a much needed chuckle to start my day.
Dave, what about terror attacks that will come from retaliation to Israeli acts? it’s not all one way.
When you are describing a man or group of men that will look through rifle sights at a heavily pregnant woman and then go ahead and squeeze the trigger, “scum” seems fairly restrained. When the same group goes on to kill the kids, your choice of terms seems like an understatement.
Regards
Testy
[QUOTE=Olentzero]
Fuck you. Just… fuck you. I like Robyn a whole hell of a lot, and right now I can’t even stomach the thought of seeing her at a Dopefest because it means you’ll be around.
[QUOTE]
I’m surprised WeirdDave missed this bit, but you’re barking at the wrong guy. WeirdDave belongs to GingeroftheNorth–large guy, really attractive, loud voice.
You’re thinking of AirmanDoors. He’s MsRobyn’s property, not WeirdDave.
And just talking to you really friendly,
. . . chill.
Dude, you have to realize that in the US you are way out there on the political fringe. Most people are eoither Democrats, Republicans, or independents–there are very few Marxists, especially in Virginia. That is a simple fact you have to accept–for now. If you want to convince** people, persuade them to see that your political stance is a reasonable one, it might be well for you to dial down the temper, difficult as it may be, in order to achieve your greater goal of political evangelism. When you have these fits of pique over so trivial a point as someone’s opinion, all you accomplish is to diminish your own credibility. There are always going to be some negative opinions–hell, even Jesus had his detractors, so if even he couldn’t get a 100% approval rating, what chance do any of us regular Joes have?
You have an interesting POV that I would hate to lose, even if I do not agree with you.
Officer John Smith’s personal witness of Terrorist John Smith’s actions doesn’t turn Officer John Smith into judge, jury and executioner, especially not if it also allows him to kill innocent bystanders.
There’s a serious problem in your rhetoric here, Weirddave. You cannot assume that anyone who opposes Sharon’s stupid policies is necessarily anti-Israel. Didn’t you learn anything at all through the whole Bush-Iraq war? Anti-Bush doesn’t mean anti-America and anti-Sharon doesn’t mean anti-Israel.
This might not be the right week to ask that. Naked Iraqi towers are not much better.
You make an excellent point, Twisty, and one that needs to be examined in more detail. If you’ll notice, earlier in this thread I suggested that the best course of action for the Palistinians would be non-violent protest, because it would kick the props out from under Israel’s justification for violence in return. Israel would have no reason to attack and kill Hamas leaders or PLO leaders or anyone else of they weren’t staging terrorist attacks on civilians. Certainly, Israel blowing up a terrorist leader in an attack that happens to result in some civilian casualties too is bad, however it’s a model of restraint when compaired to terrorists targeting civilians in the first place, which is much, much worse. On one hand you have Israel attempting to limit civilian casualties as much as possible, while accepting that there are going to be some because the cowardly terrorists they are after chose to hide behind civilians, on the other you have terrorists delibertly targeting civilians and trying to do so in a manner that ensures the greatest number of innocent victims. Stuck in the middle are the average Palistinian civilians who neither side cares very much about, although I dare say the Israelies do a slight bit more than the terrorists, they at least allow Arab Israelies to vote, and try to hurt as few Palistinian civilans as possible. Why people keep trying to equate these two unequal actions and intentions in this thread is beyond me.
With all due respect, Zoe, it is the only factor. It has been for centuries. Even when we are living peacefully integrated into other nations, we are hated because we are Jews. No offense intended, but your distant Jewish relations cannot possibly instill in you the same understanding that someone who is a Jew develops over a lifetime of discrimination and hate. You are a decent, caring and intelligent woman, so I know you can empathize. But you cannot know. History has shown repeatedly that no matter how we act, how we live, where we live, we are considered subhuman, worthy of mass genocide, and not just during the Holocaust. Throughout history. Centuries.
It really is Because We’re Jews.
And you’ll find me speaking out (and sometimes even SCREAMING out – see any of my recent posts decrying the inhumane war the U.S. is currently waging against innocent Iraqis) against it.
They can see themselves however they’d like. Their view is contradicted by the facts, as it is they who have been persecuting us for centuries – and guess what – We’re Not Gonna Take It Anymore!
We’ve offered peace (and meant it).
We’ve offered land and self-governing and withdrawal from settlements. Every honest attempt at compromise has been pissed on.
They want to drive us into the sea.
It really is Because We’re Jews.
Olentzero, you’re a liar, which is evidenced by the vitriol you spew here, the terms you use, the disdain you show. The only one of us doing any disservice here is you, who steadfastly refuses to understand the truth, doing mental gymnastics to twist it to your distorted worldview. I pity you.
Which might be an arguable point if I didn’t actually make an effort to research the subjects which I debate and provide cites for my assertions and analyses. I’ve learned one thing on these boards and it’s this: Back up your arguments. Check the “Hamas assassination” thread I linked to earlier in this thread and tell me all I’m doing is ranting on from the lunatic fringe.
You’re half-right here. When people ask me questions I’ve answered before, I choose to link them to the answers I’ve already provided rather than having to type duplicate posts. Why re-invent the wheel every time? You’re not the only one who’s asked those questions, obviously; if you take it as a snub that I don’t feel it necessary to type out an answer each an every time a given question is asked, I’m sorry. I just prefer to live my life without carpal tunnel syndrome.
And yet you just said the opposite. Which is it? Do I ignore you or do I refer you to answers?
Fuck you I’m impervious to facts. [post=4779386]Here[/post]is a post in which I refer to factual sources. [post=4780390]Here[/post] is another. And [post=4782781]another[/post]. And [post=4784209]another[/post]. Are you getting the picture? I’m not impervious to facts, since I actually use them to back up my arguments. I don’t get strength of conviction behind my arguments simply because I am a Marxist and I think he was right; I get strength of convictions from my arguments because I read up on the subject and verify the facts I read.
which is to act all friendly to my face because we’re at a party, but continue to call me “bugshit nuts” and “as grounded in reality as an invisible pink unicorn” on the boards because you know I’m not close enough to do anything as a consequence of losing my temper. You’re a fucking hypocrite, Dave. Either treat me on the boards as you would at a Dopefest or treat me at a Dopefest as you would on the boards. None of this “friends at a party, hostility behind the monitor” bullshit.
That goes for you too, gobear. Calling me “loony left” in the Pit and then saying “I really do respect you” to my face didn’t fly at the Melting Pot and it won’t fly later. If you really do respect me, fucking act like it. And you telling me to chill? After that mini-meltdown in the Pit where you got tired of people pointing out you were gay for no reason you could discern as good? That’s rich. (And yes, I know the difference between MsRobyn and Ginger; my fingers were apparently two steps ahead of my brain on that one.)
Shayna, where have I attacked anyone, shown them disdain, or spewed vitriol at them, because they either stated they were Jewish or it was somehow assumed by me that they were a Jew? Where, anywhere on this board, have I attacked anyone for being a Jew? Prove to me, with my own words, that I am indeed anti-Semitic, and I will admit here in this thread to all and sundry that I am indeed a liar.
Shayna,
Would you include the recent vote of The Likud to scupper Sharon’s withdrawl plan as an attempt at compromise that was pissed on?
Do you think that the withdrawl plan is indeed fair, that even with the withdrawl of land, 85% of the fertile land and 65% of the water supplies are still retained, making the proposed Palestinian state practically unsustainable?
I honestly haven’t seen anywhere Olentzero “spits vitriol” at Jews.
I can only guess at how personal this is to you. I did walk through the Ann Frank House with you, and I saw the reaction it had on you. I see the importance you place on this issue.
But just because Olentzero’s worldview is vastly different to yours, it doesn’t mean he hates Jews.
Thank you, TwistofFate.
Did you pay attention to the tone of my post? Polite, friendly, trying to be constructive? Notice how I’m being patient with you, not swearing or being angry? I’m the same on the board as I am in person. I’m pretty sure I pointed out at the Melting Pot that your politics are indeed quite loony from my POV–but, and here’s the point, it’s just my POV and it should have no effect on you. You think I’m an evil capitalist stooge, and it doesn’t bother me.
And what about you? Swearing and spitting vitriol here, pleasant at the restaurant. . . would it have really given you so much pleasure to throw fondue in my face and storm out? Have you not heard of the idea that one should act civilized in a public place? Do you really want the Pit and real life to be identical? I find the Pit to be a useful safety valve that allows people to vent their anger so that it allows them to be friendly afterwards. No matter how much we might argue online, it never occurs to me to stay angry or to hold a grudge against you merely because we had a disagreement. I’m sorry to discover that you feel differently.
That was an isolated outburst after having an opinion dismissed because of my sexuality one time too many. Hey, I’m human. I’d cut you the same slack if you only grew angry once in a while–everybody needs to throw some dishes at the wall now and again–but you are a seething volcano of rage in each and every thread you enter. It gets old.
I don’t think Shayna said you attack Jews. It seems to me that she has attacked your amount of vitriol, dismissal of facts and history, and your position as being anti-Semitic. Which it is. Most people refer to “Zionists, not Jews” when voicing more anti-Semitic beliefs and not wanting to take responsibility for them(I’m not an anti-Semite, I’m an anti-Zionist!).
That’s my experience with it. Take it FWIW. Go over your posts, look at your tone, consider what you’ve said and how you’ve said it and I’m sure you can see where people might attack your amount of anger, and at whom it is directed.
Or not, doesn’t much matter to me. I’ve seen all I needed to see out of you, as have others, and it seems most of us are in agreement.
Sam
Gawd, your painting with a bad brush
Where is the evidence? Why does being Anti-Zionist necessarily make someone anti-semetic? You’re continuing the mantra over and over again until it’s assumed that it’s true. I fully support the soverignty of the state of Israel and its right to exist, but that doesn’t necessarily make me a Zionist. If I am critical of Zionism, does that make me anti-semetic?
So, he’s saying, because their grandparents were bad they deserve to be blown to bits in pizza parlors downtown. (If that isn’t hereditary guilt and hatred of a people I don’t know what is)
Oh, but I know he’ll back away and say that his text doesn’t-directly-say-he-endorses-their-murder.
All his text really says, if we’re following a strict construction, is that it is logical and good that Palestinians would orchestrate a campaign of terror against civilians… and that’s either a racist point of view, or an ignorant point of view.
As I’ve challenged him several times in this thread, is he ignorant, or malicious?
So, again, the founding of a Jewish Homeland is tantamount to an act of War and them having the nerve to continue existing is another provocation.
Again, he’ll probably back away from that statement, but I’ve now challenged him twice on it and he’s offered no proof for any ‘provocation’. I can’t read that as anything but naked hate, unless it’s just shockingly potent ignorance.
So, my family members who armed themselves so they wouldn’t be butchered should burn in hell forever. (Not anti Jewish, right? Just so ignorant it hurts?)
And again, we see that he justifies violence against Jewish civilians (oh, I know he’ll back away and say that he’s not really saying what he’s really saying). It’s okay, the ‘fightback’ was ‘paved’ by the actions of my evil relatives. And they have no one to blame for being murdered by terrorists, cuz, like, it’s their fault.
There are other quotes. The point is:
Is this attitude painfully and willfully ignorant of the facts
or is it racism?
On the best outcome he’s just out of touch with reality, on the minus side he’s got some dark and twisted agenda behind his hate.
P.S. I’ll be replying to more of the thread later on in the day.
My opinion of you doesn’t enter as a factor into arguments I have with you. I argue with your ideas, not with you. I don’t believe I’ve ever called you a “right-wing hack”, or a “Reaganite stooge”, or a “Nixonian ass-licker”, just for voicing your opinion in a thread. And I know you cannot say the same for yourself.
No, it wouldn’t have. I would have very much liked to say “Well, then act like it” at that point and left it at that, but I didn’t even want to cause that much of a fuss.
I have. I guess I considered this a public place as well, since it’s accessible by anybody with an internet connection.
No, I’d just prefer to have people behave consistently. If they disagree with me strongly enough to call me names just for voicing my opinion - or dismiss my opinions outright because of my political leanings - on the SDMB, don’t expect me to forgive and forget when there’s beer available.
Then you misunderstand me. But let’s refer to your next line for a proper perspective, shall we?
Substitute “political leanings” for “sexuality” and you have my position exactly. I certainly don’t doubt you’d lose your temper far more often if you saw “gobear is a nice fellow offline, but don’t waste your time arguing with him here because he’s as queer as a three-dollar bill” more often than not in threads where you contributed.
Find me a thread where I’m this angry and where my politics are not mentioned by someone else apropos of nothing in particular, and I will cede the point.
GaWd, so as I understand it, you all are basing accusations of my anti-Semitism on my tone rather than my arguments? What anti-Semitic beliefs have I espoused, here in this thread or elsewhere on the boards? Just because I’m angry (and I’m angry at Weirddave rather than any of you) and I oppose the way Israel, and the Zionists who founded it, have conducted themselves against the Palestinians doesn’t mean I’m anti-Semitic.
Please, and I’m asking nicely of you, and Shayna, and the rest of you, show me concrete evidence of my anti-Semitism, in my own words, or retract the claim.
Twisty, I’m not going to start micronitpicking the details of every offer of withdrawal and peace ever made. That’s not my expertise and, quite frankly, I have no interest in delving that deeply into the conversation in the first place. My point that reasonable peace offerings have been made and rebuked is an historical fact. That more recent ones aren’t as good or, even entirely fair, isn’t the point.
You read this thread, right? Not sure how you could’ve missed it.
Olentzero can claim he doesn’t hate Jews and convince himself he believes that to be true. But he’s self-deluded. It’s like the person who says they aren’t prejudiced against black people, but won’t rent to them, or who move out of their neighborhood when too many move in, or who deny them equal and fair home loans, or don’t offer them equal employment opportunities because, well, history shows they’re gang members and thieves. Ok, maybe not the one guy I know. And one time I did go on a date with a black girl (but I would never marry one!).
It’s crap.
When one wishes to deny people the right to exist in a homeland that is legally theirs, they cannot possibly actually expect me to believe that they like them.
I’m not going to respond too much to this Shayna, I’m not going to get too deep into this as I feel we will never see eye to eye. I don’t have the same level of personal involvement as you do and I don’t believe I can fairly make you see my point of view.
Shalom.
Hey Olentzero, you seem to enjoy playing the martyr, but contrary to your assertations, I treat you just the same IRL and on the boards. Please notice that none of my posts have been directed at you, Olentzero the person, but rather at your political beliefs. There is no dicotomy in this, if you walked up to me at a dopefest and asked me what I thought of your politics, I’d tell you that I think they are bugshit crazy. Dopefests are social gatherings, and they are governed by the rules of social interaction. This is the pit, and it’s the place for gloves off debating and arguement. I have frequently disagreed with mhendo on these boards, I am sure I will do so again, but last weekend we went to a Lax game together and had a lot of fun. If you’re identity is so wrapped up in your politics that you take comments about politics as personal insults, perhaps a reexamination of your priorities and your life is in order. I also noted this:
The difference is that your political beliefs are a choice, you can chose to defend them, modify them, or change them entirely. Gobear’s sexuality is not a choice. The arguement you just made is the same as the Klansman trying to cry racism when he is persecuted for his racist beliefs. There is world of difference between what one chosed to do or believe(politics, racism, anti-semitism, etc…) and what one had thrust upon them without any control over it(race, orientation, sex, etc…)
Please also note that nowhere in this post am I implying that Olentzero is, or is in any way connected to, the KKK, I am also not saying that a belief in Communism is in any way the same as racism.