No, your tone and your words are called into question as well as your intent. Sorry that wasn’t clear. Read Shayna’s latest post. She has said exactly where I was going with this.
It’s all well and good to have political feelings about the region. It’s another thing entirely to refer to the Zionists who founded the region, and who haven’t truly actively had a part in Israel for some time, and still hold the opinion that it is them who you are apparently angry with. The Zionists are gone. It is only Jews left who are tired of seeing their loved ones gunned down and blown up in cold blood by a bunch of fucking cowards. Ignore the “Zionists”. Pay attention to the Jews. Only idiots and bigots play the “Zionist Conspiracy” card.
Being outside my religion, my culture and my people, you can’t possibly understand how you come off vomiting forth your political ideals and claiming that it’s not the “Jews” you hate, but the “Zionists” who formed the state fifty fucking years ago. That would be ok if your history wasn’t so fucked up, which it is-and that wouldn’t be so bad if you’d pay attention, learn a little and change some of your story-which you won’t despite people’s best attempts.
FinnAgain, your approach is absolutely disgusting. You’re right, I’m going to disavow myself from your interpretations of my posts because those interpretations are baseless and wrong. Call it “backing off” if you will, but anyone with an ounce of reason in their heads ought to see through your ploy on this one.
Where did I say I felt Israeli children today deserved to die in terrorist attacks because of the aggressive exploits of Zionist organizations like Haganah and Irgun? I’m saying the mess Israel is in today is a logical consequence of their actions both before and after its founding in 1948. Do I approve of it? No. Am I glad, deep in my blackest heart of hearts, to see Jewish blood spilled upon the dusty streets of Tel Aviv? Get real. I would love to live to see the day when peace finally reigns in Palestine, when both Jew and Muslim turn their swords into plowshares, till the soil as brothers and sisters, and study war no more.
But that isn’t going to happen with the way Israel conducts itself.
Yes, I believe the founding of the state of Israel is an act of war. I presume you’ve just skimmed over the posts I linked to in the other thread and have expended no effort to study the maps, or my analyses thereof. So I’ll try to break it down into three or four sentences.
In 1947, the Jewish population was 33% of the total population of Palestine, and they owned only 6% of the land. Yet in 1948, half the territory was given to the state of Israel - by a UN commission composed of eleven member states physically located nowhere near Palestine, and without the apparent input of the Palestinians themselves. Basically, the Zionists said “We get half the land, our claim is backed up by international fiat, and there’s nothing the Palestinians can do about it.” By 1950, there had been 15 incidents qualifying as “massacres” of Palestinians, 10 of which were on what was then Palestinian territory. Israel had also occupied a large chunk of that territory, in defiance of the UN partition plan. The maps I’ve linked to spell it out quite plainly. The Wye and Oslo accords, which throw crumbs to the Palestinians while keeping the best territory for Israel (or at best placing them under “joint control”) are just fanning the flames.
And, finally, in this modern world, yes, a state does have the right to arm itself. How, then, do you justify Zionist organizations like Haganah smuggling arms - and Jewish immigrants - into Palestine from the 1920s onwards? There was no Israeli state to arm.
Shayna, unless you have one iota of proof that I have in any way actively discriminated against Jews, and you can point to concrete proof anywhere on the SDMB that I have made unquestionably anti-Semitic statements, I am going to have to ask you to retract your accusation. You seem to be unable to prove it.
GaWd, I’ve got links all over this page to the thread in which I examine in detail the brief history I’ve just posted. Please, go look at those posts, look at the cites and the sources I use, and then come back and tell me why my history is fucked up. I’m not refusing to listen to any of you, I’m just not seeing convincing arguments as to why my POV is wrong.
Weirddave, it doesn’t matter whether an aspect of oneself is a choice or not. You get tired of being dismissed out of hand because of it.
Uh huh. Like this line?
Or this?
Please explain to me how that was directed at my politics, and not at me.
I have been following this thread with some interest, and would love for you to address this one point for me. Suppose that this is true? Now what? Should Israel just move? What is the end game that you would propose? I mean, it seems to me that the Jewish people have pretty much tried living everywhere else on this sad little planet, so at what point does it become ok for them to dig in and defend their right to exist? And where is it ok for them to do this?
Jews have as much right to live wherever they please as everyone else in this world. What they don’t have, however, is the right to forcibly dislocate another population to do it. The Israelis can claim anti-Semitism as much as they like in explaining why the Palestinians are pissed off at them, but easily available evidence from recent history shows that to be a myth. The foundation of Israel rests on nothing more than an armed colonial land grab.
The end game isn’t that easily sketched. A step in the right direction would be the immediate cessation of all US financial and military aid to Israel. Tearing down that damn wall would be another. A third would be Israel granting Palestinians the unconditional right of return to the lands they lost from 1948 onwards. Where to go from there? I don’t know. Let’s get that far and then we’ll see.
It’s called an analogy, dumbshit. I don’t have to prove why I think you have deluded yourself into believing you don’t hate Jews, the evidence is in every post you make on the subject. So you can stomp your foot and demand a retraction all you want – there isn’t one forthcoming.
Or better yet, when you can say, with 100% belief in your heart, and mean it, that “[Peace] isn’t going to happen with the way the Palestinians conduct [themselves],” I might be persuaded to believe you don’t hate Jews.
I won’t hold my breath, so perhaps you shouldn’t either.
Then maybe you should provide some analysis to back up your claim, fuckwad. 'Cos apparently I’m not the only one who doesn’t see it. Put your cards on the table, Shayna. What you got?
They were there first, long before there was any such creature as a Palestinian.
[/quote]
In other words, you want the Jews of Israel to commit national suicide. Unlimited return of Palestinian exiles would be the end of Israel, and shortly thereafter, of the Jews who used to live there.
Olentzero, I am willing to be proven wrong, but is it not the predominant view in Radical Islam that Jews should be exterminated? How do these steps that you mention (especially the “right of return” one) amount to anything more than self-annihilation for Israel?
More lies. But just go right on deluding yourself.
FUCKING LIAR. Talk about not bothering to read links or understand the fucking TRUTH, you sonofabitch. The Palestinians have been historically opressing and murdering Jews for centuries, up to and including their collusion with fucking HITLER to exterminate ALL Jews as their “Final Solution.” You are a fucking buttmunch goddamn fucking lying asshole.
A) that’s more bullshit lies and B) even if it were true, SO WHAT? 'Tain’t like every other country on this planet hasn’t gone to war over territory and claimed it as their own after they won. Look at the damn United States of America for g-d’s sake! Where the hell would you like to send us back to, seeing as how we stole this land from the natives who inhabited it for centuries before we even set foot on the coninent! Jews have actually lived in the holy land since there were Jews. They have as much right to claim the territory as theirs as anyone else. You don’t like it? TOO BAD!
I am so done with your purposeful, willful ignorance and hatred. Fuck off.
So when are you turning over your apartment to the Patowmack tribe?
You got any proof that’s what the Palestinians would do? And I don’t mean expressions of anger at Israel for what they’re doing now; I want proof that Yassin, or Arafat, or Rantisi, or any one of the contemporary Arab leaders, said “We’ll kill them all” when asked what they would plan to do if Israel granted them unconditional right of return. I mean, it is one of their demands, isn’t it?
I’m sorry to say, Olentzero but this is truly getting frustrating. My approach isn’t disgusting, your ideas are. Let me show you, yet again. (I think this is the last time, you won’t look at facts or take responsibility for what you write)
There you go. Murdering civilians is a fucking LOGICAL CONSEQUENCE??? Again, I ask you, are you a racist fuck or an ignorant fuck? Or, are you referring to some other ‘mess’ in Israel? Oh, I know, don’t call it backing away, but you’ll tell me that you’re ‘really’ talking about the sanitation problems in Tel Aviv, right?
LIAR.
I have you saying, just above, that it is a fucking LOGICAL CONSEQUENCE. That sorta tacitly implies that it is, oh, I don’t know, a fucking logical consequence!!!
I’ve got you again!
When it is proven that the Al Aqsa Intifada is political in nature, launched by the Palestinians, and targets Israeli civilians, explain how that isn’t going to stop with the way Israel comports itself?
You’re JUSTIFYING the slaughter of innocent civilians by BLAMING THE VICTIM!
The sick, truly sad thing is you might not even realize what it is you’re saying, maybe you’re just a kid who has a dose of Idealism and can’t stop to think of the impact of his words?
Again. A bigot, or an idiot?
How can the founding of a state with UN mandate be an act of war? Or are you claiming that the UN declared war on Transjordan?
Correct. As you were obfuscating and dodging my questions I just looked at your data well enough to see it had nothing at all to do with the question you claimed to be answering. By the way, going to admit yet that you were full of shit and the US didn’t arm and supply Israel pre ’48?
As I’ve pointed out three times, there WERE NO PALESTINIANS.
As such it was hard to consult them.
Again, are you ignorant or a racist? But I digress…
The UN now rules by fiat?
And yep, that’s kinda the idea of a UN Partition Plan, someone gets some space, and nobody can do anything about it.
Were these real massacres of ‘Jinin’ massacres?
And again, willfully ignorant or racist?
Israel just happened to occupy these territories? They were, oh, maybe, attacked first?
And, I find it highly ironic that you first condemn Israel for using the UN mandate and then for not using it. Make up your mind.
I coooould take that to mean that you are saying Israel made some bad negotiating offers and then as a logical consequences the flames were fanned and as a logical consequence Israeli civilians became valid targets of war. But hey, a logical consequence of that would be putting words into your mouth, right, logically, right?
Again, racist or dumb?
If they didn’t arm themselves, they would’ve been butchered the moment they established sovereignty. I’ve already linked to the Arab League’s official position: Genocide.
Yes, they brought weapons and people into what would be their country so that they could survive its founding. The bastards!
I’m afraid it’s binary olentzero. Either you’re a racist, or at least on this topic, a very vociferous idiot.
It’s not about a point of view, and that’s why you’ll never get it. Actions took place in space-time. People did stuff. There is a timeline (which you keep trying to alter to fit your agenda). There are facts, and when you ignore them in favor of a ‘pov’, all you’re saying is you reserve the right to be an ignorant asshole.
P.S. No, I do not think you really are an ignorant asshole, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt. But you are acting like an ignorant asshole
P.P.S. I respect your right to have your own mind, even if you’re out of touch with reality and seeing history through a racist lense. I do not, however, have to debate with you when your argument boils down
as a logical consequence
to: “Israel did bad stuff in the 1940’s. Or the 1950’s. Or the 1960’s, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s and thus the murder of their civilians is only normal and natural.”
A thought or two here:
[ul]
[li]I don’t think that this is something that it is reasonable to “prove” as the true test will be for Israel to allow for a massive immigration of Palestinians, and then hope for the best. [/li][li]Although we can theorize that the Palestinians would suddenly behave in an exemplary way if they were given what they want, the fact is they are deliberately killing innocent civilians right now (the very subject of this thread, BTW, so all in all it is not a good gamble.[/li][/ul]
Dude, you’re frothing at the mouth in this very thread, as well as espousing propaganda and twisting historical facts to fit your preconcieved worldview. These are your actions in a political debate, over politics. The only time I’ve seen you froth at the mouth IRL is when someone tried to make you eat guacamole.
Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner! Someone who is lost in the idealism of his Marxism and hasn’t yet stopped to think of the consequences his words will have on others. I don’t think your are a racist Olentzero, but I do definitely think you’ve gotten away from yourself. At least, I like to think you’re not as bigotted as you seem.
With all of the nationalistic land-grabs perpetrated through history on the area, and in fact, globally, why is it the Jews’ fault? How is it that we’ve brought this on ourselves and should be made to sit there and not defend ourselves? America does it even to this day. The Romans and Greeks and Persians and Russians and almost every single empire has. Why is it that you’re not yelling about them? And why do others have carte blanche for protection?
Why only about the little patch of dirt that was granted to the Jews? All of the other Imperial powers in the world are allowed to defend themselves against insurgency or outright war, why not Israel? Seriously, ask yourself that question. And come up with an honest answer, not something as ignorant as “because they stole the land from the Palestinians in the 40’s, this is their just desserts”.
No, I’m talking about the intifadeh. Israel has consistently oppressed the Palestinians since its founding, and that oppression will, sooner or later, provoke a fightback. And it has before - surely you’re aware that this is the second intifadeh. Now, if the Palestinians hadn’t been economically, politically, and socially squeezed to the point where all they have to fight back with are stones, slings, and homemade bombs, and instead had a well-equipped, well-trained army like the Israelis did, the nature of the intifadeh would be quite different.
Saying something is a logical consequence does indeed imply it’s a logical consequence. Recognition thereof does not imply approval or condonement.
Because Israel, through 55 years of direct oppression of Palestinians, provoked that same intifadeh. You’ve correctly described it in that quote, but you haven’t done anything to identify the source.
Is someone who gets bit by a dog because they were throwing rocks at it a victim?
I am 34 years old and have been a Socialist, studying and arguing subjects like this, for almost 15 years. I don’t claim to know everything on any subject, but the arguments I make stem from the research and the study I’ve done.
If it resulted in the forcible displacement of the population that was already living there, what else could you consider it?
Would you please point out where I claimed that? I’ve been over this thread numerous times and I don’t see it.
Right. Who made up 66% of the population, and owned 94% of the land in Palestine, in 1947? Elephants?
They used it when it was to their advantage, and they defied it when it was to their advantage. Both times it was at the expense of the Palestinian population. Ergo, heaps of material for criticism.
Sure, if you only want to look back as far as 1993. But Israeli oppression of Palestinians stretches back further than that. Wye and Oslo weren’t ‘bad negotiating offers’, they were part of a conscious plan to keep a Palestinian state from being formed.
Well, if you’re going to found a country by taking someone else’s land, yeah, I guess you’d want to smuggle weapons and immigrants in. If you’re going to piss the local population off, you might as well go whole hog.
Please demonstrate where and how I am doing so.
Nowhere have I said that the slaughter of Israeli civilians is normal and natural. I detest it. To understand why something is happening, and what preceding events serve as direct causes, is not to accept it as natural or condone it as normal.
Shayna - So the displacement of Palestinians is a lie? As I noted before, they were 66% of the pre-1947 population and owned 94% of the land in what is now Israel and the Occupied Territories. How do you explain the difference in Palestinian population and land ownership between 1947 and 2003, if not by displacement and expulsion?
Chronologies, please! Cities! Dates! Numbers dead! Fucking bloodspatter patterns, if you got 'em. Back this claim up!
I seem to remember Jews doing the same thing in order to help get Israel founded. I have the cite at home and will quote from it for you this evening once I return from work. Additionally, wasn’t it Ben Gurion who said
The founding of Israel is more important than saving the lives of fellow Jews from the Holocaust. How callous can you get?
Yes, and the Native Americans are owed bigtime for these last four centuries. What’s the best way to make reparations? I don’t know; it would probably be best to ask the First Nations. Do I advocate sending “us” (whoever “we” are) back? No. Doesn’t mean the Indians should keep being stuck on those piss-poor excuses for homelands called ‘reservations’. Right of return isn’t possible for the Native Americans, and I don’t think that’s one of their demands. It is, however, possible in Palestine, and it is one of their demands. So it should be seriously considered.
Weirddave, please provide cites of the historical events you claim I’m twisting, and the untwisted version thereof. And you still haven’t explained why those are arguments against my political beliefs, and not me, thereby supporting your claim that you’re not attacking me in this thread.
Which is what, making them angry? I’m hardly surprised this debate has aroused such heated passions, but that wasn’t my intent on involving myself in here. I came in to voice my opinion and defend it.
It’s not the Jews’ fault, it’s the Zionists’. Big difference.
Because this is a thread about Israel, not about imperialism in general. Pointing the finger at others and saying “They did this too” doesn’t wash the blood off your own hands.
There’s a difference between defense and aggressive expansion. Look at the French map I’ve linked to several times. Defense doesn’t involve taking additional territory.
Nowhere, ever, have I said the Israelis deserve this. There is a vast difference between understanding the causes of an event and saying the outcome of such events are to be expected given the situation, and saying that the outcome of such events is deserved.
I do not believe Israeli citizens deserve to die.
There you have it, in black and grey. Please refer to this statement before directing further questions to me on my feelings about the intifadeh.
As much as it shocks me to see Olentzero understands the concept of logical consequences, I can see and accept the distinction he’s making.
It is for this reason that I until recently opposed the immediate withdrawal of US troops from Iraq, for example: it seemed to me that a logical consequence of such an action would be the descent of Iraq into even worse violence than is currently there. (The last week’s events are making me reevaluate my position).
If US troops withdrew and horrific bloodshed resulted, I might’ve said, “that was a logical consequence of the US’s withdrawal of troops.” THAT WOULD NOT MEAN I APPROVED OF THE HORRIFIC BLOODSHED.
Similarly, Olentzero is not saying he approves of the deaths of Jewish civilians.
However, here’s another logical consequence. His vitriol and cavalier attitudes toward Israeli citizens in this thread are so repugnant to this anti-Zionist that I’m staying the hell away from the thread, other than these quick comments. It’s only logical to expect that, when you wish eternal damnation on Israel’s original settlers, you’re going to drive away potential allies.
(To be perfectly clear: I support the right of Jews to live on that plot of land; I support the right of Muslims to live on that plot of land; I support the right of Unitarian Pagan vegan polygamists to live on that plot of land. I abhor the tactics anyone on that plot of land use that predictably result in the deaths of civilians.)
No, actually, you’re pretty much completely incorrect. There had been no real organized violence against the Jews in the Middle East until the British decided after WWI that Palestine (Part of Transjordan at the time) would be turned over to the Jews, rather than the Arabs who had lived there for 1,500 years.
And there was no real collusion with Hitler in terms of exterminating Jews in the Middle East. No Jews were shipped off to death camps in the region or anything. The Arabs were indeed sympathetic to Hitler and supported Germany rather than Britain, but that was the result of 20 years of broken British promises and colonialism along with the perception that the Zionist Jews were attempting to take control of their land (which they were).
Maybe you should actually learn the history of the region, instead of just spouting off typical Israeli spin comments.
That said, your analogy of Olentzero is one of the stupidest things I have ever read in my life. And it makes you look like a fucking moron.
No, actually you do, you stupid bitch.
Accusing someone of anti-semitism/racism is very serious. If all you’ve got to back it up is some fucked up, irrelevent and incorrect analogy, then you need to shut your pie hole.
You are a fucking buttmunch goddamn fucking lying asshole. A) that’s more bullshit lies and B) even if it were true, SO WHAT? 'Tain’t like every other country on this planet hasn’t gone to war over territory and claimed it as their own after they won. Look at the damn United States of America for g-d’s sake! Where the hell would you like to send us back to, seeing as how we stole this land from the natives who inhabited it for centuries before we even set foot on the coninent! Jews have actually lived in the holy land since there were Jews. They have as much right to claim the territory as theirs as anyone else. You don’t like it? TOO BAD!
I am so done with your purposeful, willful ignorance and hatred. Fuck off.
You’re so stuck on blaming this on a group of people whose actions occured 60 years ago, man. Flash-forward to today, please. There is no Zionist Conspiracy. There was land offered to Israel. They have taken more land as a result of defending themselves in many Israeli-Arab wars.
Just like any other imperialist nation would do. If Canada attacked us and we won, you bet your ass there’d be some expansion to preserve the safety of the US.
That’s not what I said, and you know it. Disingenuous fuck. I’m not the one having to justify my reasons for my position here. I, like many others, know what the rights of the Israelis should be and are, barring public opinion and the anti-Semitism of certain nations’ leaders. I have no problem whatsoever justifying Israels actions against the Palestinians and their terror network.
Oh yeah?
So you somehow see a difference between “deserving” it and it being a “logical consequence”? I don’t. You condone it, one way or the other so I guess semantic arguments don’t really amount to shit.
