And yes, I realize that I make those kind of comments, thoughtlessly, from time to time. I later chastise myself for them.
yaaaay! I likes you, too:)
This is entirely too sappy for the Pit, so let me add this:
tramtwo: learn proper English. And read a book. I’ve eaten things smarter than you are.
I am not the one with the closed mind here. Some people’s lack writeing skillz are not more their fault as their fat ass. If you all can not see that to take some one to task (flame) them is silly when trying to make a point about flamming, then their is no help for your narrow view.
I never once said that people should not flame. Just that a flame is a flame is a flame. What you think of the flame does not lessen the effect that is felt. From what I have seen of this board to flame without the intend to impart know;ledge is to be a jurk and as Lynn has stated that is not allowed. Well at least I have been told I can’t do it.
“Remove the plank from your eye before you point at the spec in mine.”
The apperence of a homeless family does disgust me, I am moved to action. I guess their oder would not bother you.
OOOOHHHHH. Irony!!!
I don’t think that comment made by Alessan was intended to be rude at all. There are a large number of non-US Dopers here, and knowing that someone does not use English as a first language will certainly serve to cut down or even eliminate spelling, punctuation, and grammar flames.
All Hail the Great Wizard! puts on Dark Side of the Moon
I’ve read each of these types of posts:
I still have NO idea what this persons point is. I think it may be “Some people have no more control over their spelling and grammar errors then others have over thieir fat asses.”. If that’s your point, I agree. I think spelling critics and grammar checkers are annoying as hell. People come here from all walks of life- from all different countries. People make typos. I hate these flames almost as much as personal appearance flames. Happy? These types of flames are quite similar- “You’re ugly and your mother dresses you funny” “It’s spelled Q-U-O-T-E, not qote- jeeze, how dumb are you?” I find these flames completely ridiculous as well. I’ve made my feelings about this abundenly clear in the past, so I just don’t call people out on it anymore. Both types of flames make fun of something that the person may have no control over (English as a second language- a huge nose or other physical issue).
The point of Anth’s OP (As far as I interpreted) is that if you don’t have something legitimate to flame someone about, keep it to yourself. Here we are all talking and writing- should I be worried about showing up at a Dopefest and having someone say “Damn- I thought Monica had a fat ass- did you get a load of Zette?” I believe her point is “Are those the kind of people who hang out here?” because if so, perhaps she wants to spend her time with more mature people. I submit that sometimes people get carried away with their insults and use the last resort- appearence- to make their point. While this is not a good thing, I don’t think it’s indicitive of the actual intent of the posters to be mean. Many people just think it’s funny.
Making fun of someones appearance is the cheapest of cheapshots. Oh, and as for why people don’t flame others for it, perhaps they’re just tired. I can’t count the number of “fat” threads that were in the Pit not too long ago (earlier this year?) addressing this very issue. (Very nasty) I think people get tired of fighting the same fight. I always look at these people and assume they don’t know any better, and hope they’ll come around someday.
Zette
So are you saying tramtwo has a fat ass?
In other news, I think the problems with tramtwo’s writing go beyond spelling mistakes. It’s one thing not to know how to spell X, even after people have shown you. It’s another thing not to be able to form a cogent, complete sentence, such that those of us who have been dealing with this language for several years can’t figure out what the person is saying. Then there’s something wrong.
I’ve read each of these types of posts:
I still have NO idea what this persons point is. I think it may be “Some people have no more control over their spelling and grammar errors then others have over thieir fat asses.”. If that’s your point, I agree. I think spelling critics and grammar checkers are annoying as hell. People come here from all walks of life- from all different countries. People make typos. I hate these flames almost as much as personal appearance flames. Happy? These types of flames are quite similar- “You’re ugly and your mother dresses you funny” “It’s spelled Q-U-O-T-E, not qote- jeeze, how dumb are you?” I find these flames completely ridiculous as well. I’ve made my feelings about this abundenly clear in the past, so I just don’t call people out on it anymore. (By the way, I’m not defending lazy people who routinely type “cuz” instead of “because” or other shortcuts. That’s annoying and hard to read)
Both types of flames make fun of something that the person may have little control over (English as a second language- a huge nose or other physical issue).
The point of Anth’s OP (As far as I interpreted) is that if you don’t have something legitimate to flame someone about, keep it to yourself. Here we are all talking and writing- should I be worried about showing up at a Dopefest and having someone say “Damn- I thought Monica had a fat ass- did you get a load of Zette?” I believe her point is “Are those the kind of people who hang out here?” because if so, perhaps she wants to spend her time with more mature people. I submit that sometimes people get carried away with their insults and use the last resort- appearence- to make their point. While this is not a good thing, I don’t think it’s indicitive of the actual intent of the posters to be mean. Many people just think it’s funny.
Making fun of someones appearance is the cheapest of cheapshots. Oh, and as for why people don’t flame others for it, perhaps they’re just tired. I can’t count the number of “fat” threads that were in the Pit not too long ago (earlier this year?) addressing this very issue. (Very nasty) I think people get tired of fighting the same fight. I always look at these people and assume they don’t know any better, and hope they’ll come around someday.
Zette
… consider the source…
Zette,
Yes, you interpreted it correctly, thank you. 
Anthracite, you really Alessan’s remark was not “intended to be rude at all”? Come on! At the very least, the unqualified remark bears sufficient similarity to numerous comments on these boards that are clearly intended to be read as insults. Putting on a naive rationalization act detracts from the persuasiveness of your position.
I’m not sure, however, that I’ll agree that calling someone fat or ugly is necessarily worse that other types of flames. I believe at least some individuals possess at least some degree of control over both characteristics. I am not about to accept that EVERY overweight person lacks ANY ability to control their weight.
And I consider it a fact that people who are not “model attractive” can influence their appearance one way or the other by what they do or do not do with their natural looks. For example, I have no reason to believe Tammy Faye is especially unattractive. I suspect she is actually quite “average” looking. But I have no problem saying she makes herself up like a clown.
And I am not sure it is always entirely inappropriate to extend a valid observation as to someone’s slovenly appearance to an assumption about their opinions/views. While I doubt this is true of any people on these boards, I think some people on this earth can accurately be described as “fat slobs.” But this involves much more than simply being overweight. Same way “stupid nigger” or “cheap jew” may be offensive as hell, but I suggest there actually are such people somewhere on this planet to whom the labels accurately apply. If someone is “careless” about their appearance or health, can you suggest the same applies to the quality of their thinking? Certainly not in every case, of course, but I’m not sure I’d agree that is always necessarily an improper extrapolation.
I will say, however, that looks and weight are simply irrelevant to most issues addressed on these boards. So a flame based on them says more about the flamer and the paucity of his views, than the object of the flame. Now if someone is expressing an opinion on an issue related to weight or looks, say ADA coverage for obese individuals, then it is perfectly valid to observe that the poster’s weight may influence their views. Or the thread a while back about overweight folk on airplanes. Same way someone’s race, religious experience, ethnicity, etc. may influence their views. Of course, pointing this out need not be done as a flame.
Speaking of an inability to control one’s weight or looks, well, as I suggested above, I believe there is some ability to control. If your appearance means nothing to you, then don’t be surprised if people take note of it. I have known some incredibly obese people whom I never really thought of as obese, simply because that factor of their personality was completely overshadowed by favorable aspects of their personalities, the way they carried themselves, etc.
Also, you have no problem flaming someone who is stupid? Well, I believe most folks agree inheritance has at least some role in intelligence. Also, many flames seem to be based upon philosophical, political, or emotional differences. In these cases, I’m not so sure one party or the other is right or wrong.
It seems many flames simply express one disagreer’s frustration at being unable to convince the other party. Of course, I am not talking about ignorance, such as when one holds a position without a good reason, misinterprets the basis for his opinion, fails to acknowledge weaknesses or exceptions to his beliefs, etc. But I will readily respect someone who holds a philosophical, political, or religious point of view different than me, so long as that position was the result of conscious examination rather than simply habit, convenience, a lack of curiosity, etc.
Color me ignorant. Exactly what are the boundaries of the Pit. Nazi, asshole, and goat felcher seem pretty rough to me. But it seems even those are not confined to the Pit as long as they are cleverly disguised as not being directed towards a specific individual. Are ther a list of “dirty words” or “suspect classes” that are untouchable/unmentionable? If so, where do I find them?
Yes, yes I really did think it was not meant to be offensive. Why?
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Allessan had not flamed, made fun of, or shown any interest in mocking tramtwo. And had made no other posts about or relating to tramtwo. And is not known to me to be the sort of person to typically do that.
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IIRC, Allessan is a non-US resident (Israel?), and therefore may have somewhat more personal experience in differences in the English language - and may have more sympathy with a non-US Doper being flamed by US Dopers for their speach.
That was what I was thinking, anyhow. Please present your case as to how I was “putting on a naive rationalization act”. If you think I’m being dishonest about such a simple thing, then there can be no meeting of the minds here. And I will not respond to you any further until then.
tramtwo said:
This explains everything. tramtwo is actually Gertrude Stein, and her brain–along with the rest of her–has been dead since 1946.
**
[/QUOTE]
::dancing a jig::
I convinced someone of something in the Pit! Whoo hoo! And he called me “beautiful”!
Duke, I think I love you.
Keep your mouth shut. I’ve never met a person who could be called intelligent who made snap judgements based on a person’s looks. Never!
Sorry, anth. I must be overly cynical myself. I thought Alessan’s remark was pretty obviously snide, and improperly attributed my thoughts to you. Again, I apologize for my presumption.
I’ve reviewed the entire thread, and believe many of my points were made better than me before. But I think there was considerable merit to tramtwo’s comments, at least until he made the stupid comment pointed out by saint zero immediately above, After that, the quality of his argument, um, declined somewhat.
I think it is a difficult task to differentiate between the quality and offensiveness of various flames. I love the richness of the English language, which includes the intentional use of “ugly” words for a particular reason, whether to shock, offnd, emphasize the degree of my feeling, etc. I also understand that certain words are apparently per se unacceptable on these forums, if directed at a specific individual. So apparently cunt is inappropriate. But asshole is okay. How bout nigger? Fag? Whore? Prick? Fat pig? Whatever else? I’m not saying any of them are “nice.” But the use of our language is not limited to being “nice.”
Dinsdale said:
If you find yourself offended by the appearence of others, then hang out with those who meet your standards of beauty. I’d venture to say those you avoid won’t be missing much.
Without even hearing those views, eh? My, you’re a mind-reader and everything.
Alright, explain to me how a “fat slob” is different from a skinny slob. And how a “stupid nigger” is different from a stupid white guy. And how a “cheap [J]ew” is different from a cheap Christian. Or don’t, because you can’t–it’s just stereotypical horseshit.
The points which don’t seem to penetrate your little mind is that being fat has nothing to do with being a slob, being black has nothing to do with being stupid, and being cheap has nothing to do with being Jewish. Contending otherwise–which you appear to be doing–suggests to me that ignorance won in your case.
This I would agree with–it’s always in order to point out bias. Unfortunately, that has nothing at all to do with this thread.
Did you ever mention that you regarded them as lesser beings because they were overweight? I’m sure they’d be thrilled to learn their personalities were so desirable that you’re willing to overlook this horrible flaw.
Since you obviously don’t get the point, I’ll try to make it clear. Anthracite was not calling for a ban on the words “fat,” and “ugly.” I myself don’t believe in banning words; I support your right–and tramtwo’s, and everyone else’s–to say whatever the hell you want in whatever words make you happy. (For whatever that may be worth–nobody consults me before they make policy here, and I don’t purport to speak for other posters.)
No, Anthracite’s points, as I understand them–and I’m sure she’ll correct me if I’m wrong–was (A) that making judgments about people and flaming them solely on the basis of their looks is stupid, and (B) dimwits who do this should be jumped on and have their nose rubbed in their stupidity. I don’t see a damn thing to argue with there.
But let me express a thought which isn’t very nice–I’mnot very nice, so I have no qualms about it. I would find it very fitting if those who like to make judgments based on looks someday became disfigured, and then had to deal with people just like themselves. This, I think, would be complete and perfect justice, of the “what goes around comes around” sort.
Oh, and if anyone is interesting in beating the dead horse of “Fat people CAN control it and should lose weight 'cause I don’t like 'em in spandex”, etc- do a search on “fat” or “Serlin”. This was beaten ad-nauseum a few months ago (like a 5 page thread).
Zette