MisterEcks, if you wish to take offense with anything I said, please at least take offense with what I actually said, rather than how you would like to interpret what I said in order to support your little grandstanding. I’ll respond to a few of your “points.”
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MysterEcks * Dinsdale said:
Is there seriously anything in my remark that you honestly interpreted as suggesting that I am “offended by the appearance of others”? I did not intend it and do not see it. (My main problem with the 300+ pound guys I hang out with is that they tend to regularly kick my ass at jiu-jitsu!) In fact, I believe if you remove your blinders and actually read my posts, you will see that I seconded the observation by saint zero (and others) that tramtwo’s remark along those lines was stupid.
Again, you attribute to me something other than what I intended, and what I believe a fair reading of my comments conveys. NOTHING in my remark suggests or advocates prejudging based on appearance. If I weren’t such a nice guy, I might flame you for such repeated intellectual dishonesty.
Perhaps the fat slob weighs more?
Of course. No causal correlation. But when the two attributes appear together, it is forbidden to make notice? And I did not say “black.” I said “nigger.” Please do not pretend that the two are synonymous.
I don’t see where you gleaned from my remark that I regarded them as lesser people. What term would you use to describe someone who weighs over 350 pounds? It is an observation of fact.
One guy I’m thinking of right now describes himself as a fat kid from Brooklyn, and if you knew him, you would realize that that was not defensive insecure self-deprecation on his part. Of course, you would not get an accurate picture if you assumed his experiences were not in some respect different from mine simply because of the difference in our physical habitus. For example, the guy who tried to mug him the other day began their encounter with “Move it, fatso,” something he says he hears often. I have never had anyone say that to me. His experiences are different than mine. Ignoring what contributed to his experience devalues him, in my mind.
What I intended in my original comment was essentially a respect for those people I know who have not allowed themselves to be completely defined by one aspect of their physical being that is, at least, inconvenient. Same way it would be dishonest for me to not observe that another buddy of mine is missing an arm. And my kids are really interested in his prosthesis. But his lack of an arm certainly does not define him, and is not noticed after a very short while. Of course, if he wished to present himself as “disabled”, that would be another matter. And if an obese person wishes to wallow in self pity, hey, whatever floats their boat.
Well, I think if you calm down and try to read what I actually wrote, instead of whatever you would like to imagine in order to construct a convenient strawman for you to rail against, you will find that I indicated that I thought most if not all flames were, to use your word, stupid. My limited point, as well as tramtwo’s limited original point that he got raked over the coals for, was that I did not consider appearance flames to be different/worse than any others.
Thank you for one thing, though, MisterEcks. Responding to your post encouraged me to try to figure out formatting.
Hey look, the old dog learned a new trick!
Hey! Who’s calling who old?
I wanted to think some more before responding. I also have not yet responded to a good post in Great Debates re: Engineering licensing - I’m getting behind in responding to the larger replies. I also thought that some or many of the issues were covered in a way similar to how I might have myself here as well. Nevertheless, I’ll try to give you a good response tonight, OK?
I have read more than a few threads where you refer to yourself as ugly. You have said things about yourself that make me sad that you think of yourself that way when there are a huge bunch of people here that DO think you’re beautiful. We also think you’re smart and generous (amongst other things).
You also have an SO, so I’d bet she ALSO thinks you’re beautiful and great or she wouldn’t be with you.
I don’t know how to say this politely, but this is the pit so I guess I don’t have to be polite.
Well, the truth be told, I’m pretty much too worthless to even live. But, this is not about me, and I did not start this side topic. So no cheap “pity party” cracks everyone, please.
She would not step on the brakes if I walked in front of her car. Inertia rules the “relationship”. Goddess I’m so tired now.
Hah! You have no idea, my dear, just how much I’ve spent doing that. And continue to spend.
Oh please, NOBODY is as ugly as you make yourself out to be. (okay, maybe John Merrick, but I highly doubt you rival the Elephant Man)
And I think you’re delusional, as well.
I can’t even believe you think this way! It’s one thing to think you are unattractive, but worthless? You seem to have a successful career, you’re a pretty talented writer, you’re wicked intuitive and you have a lot of friends here!
Jesus, Una! I really hope you’re trying to be funny because if not, you DO realize that is seriously fucked up?
Maybe people picking on my personal self-image problems is not something I can really deal with tonight, on top of everything else.
And maybe saying things like “I think you need counseling.” in a public forum is not very nice to say, especially when it is not relevant to my thread. And maybe saying things like “And I think you’re delusional, as well.” in the public arena is not nice either. And maybe most everything you said I would have been taken in stride as good, friendly advice, if it was e-mailed to me privately out of concern.
People have said things like this before - kind, caring, compassionate people who write me privately and ask if I’m OK, and ask if I want to talk, and put forth suggestions - ones that sound just like yours. I don’t mind that, and most all of them are correct.
What happens if I discuss this more in public? A certain Doper in CO can tell me again how “irrational” I am? Another Doper in FL can tell me again how he “lost all respect for me”? And yet another in VA can tell me how I have no “intellectual or personal credibility on this (board)” again? No thanks, I learned my lesson!
I did not bring this up to personalize this. I mentioned my hideousness to show where I stood, so people could see in my OP that I do in fact have a bias on this issue, because of how I am. I have been trying to discuss something here I feel strongly about. I was filled with righteous indignation at how fellow Dopers and public figures and everyone else are hurt by unfair, unnecessary, pointless flames about their personal appearance. What happened as a result? Many people agreed, some people graciously said this made them think, and some disagreed. Pretty good as Pit threads go, overall.
I don’t know enough about you and your writing style to know accurately what your intent was in bringing this up publicly here, but maybe you could explain it for me.
I’ll take your word for it–I may have been reading this and seeing the late tramtwo’s “what if their appearence offends me” statement instead. (Yes, you did distance yourself from that statement–later, in a different post.)
You said:
which I think my response of:
was perfectly fair. If this is “something other than what [you] intended,” then you should take it up with yourself.
You go 'head and take your best shot, Dinsdale–I like war as much as the next guy, and I think youare being intellectually dishonest. With your shield or on it, soldier.
My use of “black” was because I have no use for the word “nigger.” In this country, at least, those who use the word “nigger” are invariably sluring black people–if you meant to slur somebody else, you need to be clearer.
Well, let’s see, how about:
My reading of this is that you would see them as “obese”–and this, to you, is a personality flaw–but this failing is “overshadowed” (oh come on, admit it, you really wanted to say “outweighed”) by “favorable aspects of their personalities.” I think my interpretation is entirely fair.
Perhaps so. Or perhaps he or she would just be a “person” to me, and I wouldn’t find it necessary to find lables.
I certainly would not make any such assumptions. On the contrary, I tend to automatically assume overweight people have had to put up with all sorts of assorted shit–females especially, but males as well. Some of this shit is administered by those who don’t even realize it…such as those who think being fat just might indicate that one is “careless” about the “quality of their thinking[.]”
And do you understand that youare one of those trying to define them by that one aspect?
Oh, I’ve known quite a few overweight people who do just that–and, yeah, it can be annoying as hell. Problem is, I’ve seen plenty of condescending assholes who manage to feed this self-pity by being nasty, and ignorant, and by having all the empathy of rocks. (I’m thinking of tramtwo rather than you here.)
Perhaps youshould read what you actually wrote, instead of just trying to defend it.
Flames based on someone’s positions, or actions, or words–such as if you decide you want a flame war with me over my opinions of your opinions–are one thing. Flaming someone for no other reason than what they look like–as in the examples mentioned in the OP–is something else, something seriously stupid. It differs from flames about race, or sexual orientation, or gender only in that it is more accepted in public. That was the whole point to this thread.
You stick with me, and I’ll improve hell out of you.
You’re just the latest in a long line, Dinsdale. I should just change it to “MisterX” and be done with it.
You are, as usual, completely correct. I apologize for “picking” on you.
You know, I debated whether to but a smiley after that comment or not to indicate that I didn’t really mean delusional, I meant that I didn’t agree with you’re poor image of yourself.
To be honest, I don’t care that much. I find your attitude disturbing and rather pitiful. I have seen people complement you; I, myself, complemented you and you respond with “I am pretty much too worthless to live” and “my SO wouldn’t step on the brakes if I walked in front of her car.” It seems as if you WANT to believe of yourself as a hideous, unloved creature.
Your attitude towards yourself is the only thing that’s ugly about you.
I did not bring this up to personalize this. I mentioned my hideousness to show where I stood, so people could see in my OP that I do in fact have a bias on this issue, because of how I am. I have been trying to discuss something here I feel strongly about. I was filled with righteous indignation at how fellow Dopers and public figures and everyone else are hurt by unfair, unnecessary, pointless flames about their personal appearance. What happened as a result? Many people agreed, some people graciously said this made them think, and some disagreed. Pretty good as Pit threads go, overall.
I don’t know enough about you and your writing style to know accurately what your intent was in bringing this up publicly here, but maybe you could explain it for me. **
[/QUOTE]
You are, as usual, completely correct. I apologize for “picking” on you.
You know, I debated whether to but a smiley after that comment or not to indicate that I didn’t really mean delusional, I meant that I didn’t agree with you’re poor image of yourself.
To be honest, I don’t care that much. I find your attitude disturbing and rather pitiful. I have seen people complement you; I, myself, complemented you and you respond with “I am pretty much too worthless to live” and “my SO wouldn’t step on the brakes if I walked in front of her car.” It seems as if you WANT to believe of yourself as a hideous, unloved creature.
Your attitude towards yourself is the only thing that’s ugly about you.
But you HAVE personalized it. By consistantly harping about how ugly you are and stating it in the OP, you have identified yourself with all the people you are trying to defend.
Of course people are going to (mostly) agree with you, they don’t dare not. An “ugly” person bitching about how people flame others on their looks…hell, you should have put this in GD, you would have had a guaranteed win.
I really think you need counseling. :rolleyes: Did you think I was beating around the bush?
Back to the OP:
Do you think you would be so pissed off about this if you were “beautiful?”
I would just like to know, before we get too deep into this, what really is your goal here? Does it have anything to do with the topic of this thread?
You didn’t care enough to mail me privately, but you did care enough to post it publicly. Am I wrong in this assessment? And if not, does this make sense when you replay it in your head?
I don’t recall flaming you, making any negative comments about you, or even mentioning you one way or another in any context other than positive in the last few months. I wonder why you are taking this much trouble to tell the Board how you find my attitude “disturbing and rather pitiful”. You are trying to phrase your words as if you are being supportive of me, and yet you keep slipping in little digs like that. Why?
If you will just tell me how I have offended you, or which friend of yours I have pissed off, then we can surely come to an agreement on how to settle this.
Your other thread is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with this topic. Like I said, I did not personalize this, except to tell in the OP where I stood. And in an off-the-cuff response to bio-brat later on.
But let’s look at what else I posted to that thread, insted of applying your obviously selective memory to it, shall we?
Post Number 1: Essentially, I outlined that your tooth condition could be serious, explained why, and recommended a female dentist if you were afraid. I showed concern towards your plight. I did not denigrate myself.
Post Number 2: I gave a long story, telling about my fear of dentists, the massive work I needed done, and why I became afraid. Then I tell why I decided to get my dental work done - because I wanted to be less sad, obviously a corrective action in several ways.
Post Number 3: SaxFace made a mistake that my dental work was done, and I was “fixed up and gorgeous”. I corrected her that my dental work had just started, and noted that I had other injuries from my car accident as well. Injuries that scarred me and depressed me. BUT, let’s look at the whole quote, not the selective part you took (clever!):
WAIT A MINUTE??? What’s that line you left out? Was this an attempt at dark humor? Wow, sure looks like it to me. Isn’t language funny? You take things out of context, and sometimes the whole menaing just, oh I don’t know, changes?
In short, I question your motives for using an out-of-context post so prominently, ignoring my other posts in the thread, ignoring the considerate and helpful attitude I showed towards you, and bringing this all out over here. Wow - just think if instead of my helpful, innocuous post, I had just said something similar to “you need counseling”. Wouldn’t be too nice now, would it? Why couldn’t you have been at least as nice to me as I was to you? What really did I do to deserve your ire?
Please think about this. Maybe, just maybe, you are in the wrong. And owe me an apology. Because before this thread, all I had for you were good wishes that your tooth turned out OK, and that you would have luck finding a good dentist. But that’s just evil, antisocial, psychotic me I guess. (Wait!!! Don’t quote that - that’s dark humor as well!)
No, I have not. Read this thread. Read my posts to it. Other than the OP, and the off-the-cuff remark to bio-brat, I did not mention one thing about this until after your post. Read this thread, I repeat. What you are doing is exactly what techchick did to me - applying old posts and old behavior to me, because like her you cannot accept that things are different now.
I repeat - in this thread, the only times I personalized it before your post were in the OP, and in the response to bio-brat. That is not “consistantly harping” on it. Once again, I feel like my fucking Pit thread did no good. If people are not going to accept that I’m not looking for pity, if they will keep bringing up old threads to beat me with, then what can I do? When will people stop bringing the old shit up? When I have 3000 posts? 4000? When, really, does my probation period end?
The answer, of course, is people like you have already made your minds up about me, and written me off. Well, I can take that. But that doesn’t mean I will sit here and smile when you come in, off-topic, and start in with this shit in your very first post about how I “need counseling”. What you did in that was unfair, and you know it. It was unprovoked, uncalled-for, and impolite.
LOL, oh right. You know me, never one to jump into controversy, always playing it safe. Come on, anyone think I’m afraid of controvery? :rolleyes:
And if you gaze up the thread a few lines, you will see Dinsdale’s arguments disagreeing with me (which I still must respond to, but shit, it’s 1:00 am already…) So I guess there are some that disagree. But this thread is not the Scope’s Monkey Trial here - it is pretty clear-cut, IMO. And thus easier to argue for. So??? Does that make my OP less valid? Should one not argue against racism, because “people are going to (mostly) agree with me” that it’s sick and wrong? Better close down a few hundred GD threads then…
This last comment above of yours I call out either shows you are being facetious, or have not really read too many of my threads or posts. Wait, I forgot - you don’t care!
That wasn’t what I asked. At best, I think you need to check out a book from your local library on “polite communication”. Oh wait, I forgot. You don’t care enough to actually tell me in private to do good, but you did want to score some cheap points in public. :rolleyes:
Well, I would like to think I’m that good of a person. But I can’t say for sure, because I would not have had the same life experience.
Please, you really don’t have to respond to this. This will only end in more harsh words from both of us, and a locked thread. You don’t care for me, yes, yes, I get the message. Now kindly shun me, talk about me behind my back as “messed up”, and let me get on with trying to be a better person.
But, it’s a Free Board, for the most part. And unlike some people who are sacred cows, I am not immune from being questioned, having explainations demanded of me, or taken to task over stupid, ignorant, and assholic things I say. So if you want to go on, by all means exercise your perrogative.
Or, if you are in fact an honorable person, and agree that you have made a terrible mistake here, I would like you to post a public, unqualified apology to me.
Anthracite, I had no idea you were so unhappy, and I have no desire to add to your unhappiness. I don’t think we really disagree much at all. My initial response was simply because I felt tramtwo had been unfairly chastised for his original post.
I thought his initial statement was pretty reasonable:
(Don’t you just love the irony though, that I decide to pick up the torch for some idiot who proceeds to get himself banned?)
MysterEcks, I guess I should parse my posts more carefully, but I spent quite a bit of time on those as it is. I agree that they are not indisputably clear on all points. I suggest, however, that at least part of the confusion on both our parts might be due to some baggage we each bring to the table.
“Labelling,” I think is a kind of interesting issue. Maybe I’ll see if it is fodder for a GD. When does an accurate observation of fact become an inappropriate label? Can one make such an observation/label without improperly judging?
No, you made good points that I must respond to, and plan to over lunch today (crosses fingers). As to adding to my unhappiness, well, that was not an issue in this thread until someone else brought it up, and it is not an issue now with respect to your points. You deserve a response, or else I need to shut up and concede the point.
Well, MysterEcks already has covered all of your points, but I’m going to pretend like my responses are not colored or flavored by his responses.
Perhaps I should explain in more detail my motivation for the OP (and it wasn’t out of self-pity, boo hoo, poor me). It was mainly with respect to this election. Since a couple months leading up to the election I’ve noticed an increasingly large number of people flaming Democrats and/or Republicans and/or Independents for their personal appearance. This reached a head during Election Week, and there are still a couple threads and numerous posts talking mainly about the personal appearance of the candidates or officers in either party.
This really started to get to me, when someone would say “I hate Hillary!” (and I do not like her politics and beliefs personally, BTW), and I would ask why, I would often get a response along the lines of “because she’s a fat cow!”. Or I would listen to people rant about how Republicans are ugly, and even see them create whole threads devoted to that assertion.
Now, as to your final point in the sub-quote above. I agree, of course, that not every person lacks any control over their weight. To say otherwise is not accurate. However, it’s not just about “every” and “any”. Weight loss is pretty much a chronic illness, in the minds of many in health care. Very few desire to be overweight, yet so many are. Why is this? I tend to think that it is very easy for many people to gain weight, and very difficult for those same people to lose weight, due to genetic predisposition and hormonal and metabolic imbalances. Thus, I do consider it to be something “very difficult to control”, albeit not “out of control”, by definition.
Well, a good side point is to say that anyone can change their appearance significantly given that they have sufficient disposable income to do so, and no over-riding health problems that prevent it. I happen to know quite a bit about transgenderism and surgical procedures related to that, and believe me they can do wonders nowadays. But how realistic is it for most to undergo plastic surgery? Or even a “simple” procedure such as liposuction?
Now as far as dressing nice, using the right makeup. Well, these things are costly as well, and from what I have seen on this Board, for example, there are a large proportion of younger persons here with very little to no disposable income. So that perhaps must be taken into account as well.
And of course, we come to the most important issue - why must people change themselves to meet society’s TV-and Movie-driven ideals of beauty, weight, et al? For example, does it matter that, in one’s opinion, Tammy Faye looks like a “clown” because of her makeup and dress? Or more correctly, should it matter? Should a person who weighs 50 pounds more than ideal feel they must absolutely lose their weight, because 1) they do have control over it, and 2) society “expects them” to do so?
Well, a wise person once said “The bad thing about stereotypes is that they work, and they don’t work.” Meaning, if you see a little old lady get behind the wheel of her 1973 Cadillac Fleetwood Eldorado, you can bet your bottom dollar that she will be going 40 mph in the fast lane of the highway in front of you.
I think the only disagreement here is really whether one should make that leap of judgement, based on appearance alone. That is, while it may not be invalid to extend the observation on their appearance to their mindset, is it appropriate? Albert Einstein was described by contemporaries as looking “rumpled, like he slept in the same clothes for a week”. His mind was certainly orderly, however. A co-worker here is named “Mr. G.Q.” because of his finely tailored Valentino suits, perfect hair, neat and orderly desk, even professionally manicured nails. I have seen his house - it looks like bears had a food-riot inside it. And as far as his work, his ideas, etc - he is the single most unsuccessful, disorganized salesman I have ever seen, even on TV!
OK, I’m with you here. I agree.
You are correct, in that I do realize that people will take note of my appearance. Contrary to the opinion some may have developed of me, I do try to make the best with what I have to work with. I just don’t think I have much to start with. That does not stop me from trying to dress nicely, talk nicely in public, be polite, carry myself well, etc.
I will have to refer to the answer I gave the late tramtwo. Where I say that I would never flame someone for having lower intelligence. Often the “stupid” comment is a syntax problem, a shorthand for “your ideas and opinions are stupid”. Or to be more polite, “I feel that you have not applied logical and sane thought to your words.”
OK, nothing to disagree with here either.
Well, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I’m not the Board Net Nanny[sup]TM[/sup]. My flame was an open rant for people to comment on. I do not believe in “sacred cows”, either for topics or for posters. If you post something on this board, you better damn well expect that people will disagree with it, question you and your motives, and take you to task for it.
That’s what I believe. I may ask or flame back as to why they felt they needed to do this, but I would never say they had no “right” to do so, or ask that the mods warn an attacker on myself (note - I have asked moderators to warn attackers on others, who do not necessarily share the same views as me on this subject).
Anyhow. I’m sorry this took so long, and I do thank you for being patient. I wanted to think about it, and the more I thought the less I found out I needed to go into detail on, LOL. But I said I would respond, so I want to be good to my word.
Cool. As I suspected (and as is usually the case) there are certainly vast areas of commonality between us.
Just a couple of thoughts, probably just venting my personal biases.
I personally consider a lack of hygiene far more significant than an individual’s weight. Soap, shampoo, deodorant, laundry detergent, and a toothbrush are not all that expensive, and I think should be pretty darn high on most peoples’ lists, whether thin or fat. You can do some basic stuff, such as combing your hair, without spending big bucks. And even if you get your clothes at a thrift shop, you can try to get things than fit you, complement your appearance, etc. No, you don’t have to do any of these, but if you dress like you don’t care what anyone thinks about you, you will get your desired result. And if you ignore personal hygiene, heck, I will be offended if I have to stand next to you on the elevator and you stink. Maybe I should be more understanding and assume people who appear to exhibit poor grooming actually have some medical condition. Not sure I can go that far. (Of course, these comments apply to folks living above the subsistence level.)
About the only time I am biased against folk who are significantly overweight if I have to sit next to them on public transportation and they take up more than their “fair share” of the seat. Yes, I know it must be very difficult for them. But I must admit I am not so understanding that I feel eager to shoulder their burden. Guess that might make me a jerk in some’s eyes. But as little control as they have over their weight and the entire situation, I certainly have less.
Regarding looks, I’m trying to think of who I know that I think of as being unattractive. Pretty short list. The 2 people who come to mind are on the list, not simply because they have rather unusual looks, but because they have some kind of disgusting behaviors. The one guy picks his nose openly, and both he and the woman have extremely sloppy table manners. So that strikes me as a little interesting. I wouldn’t have thought anything about their looks, if they hadn’t “bothered” me in some other way by their behavior.
Sort of related, one time Ms. D observed, “Your friend J is really ugly.” You know, I never had even thought about it before. When I though about it, yeah, he wasn’t too much in the looks department, but neither am I. Our respective looks had nothing to do with why we are friends.
Another note, IME guys are far more “forgiving” of other guys’ looks, than of women. What I mean is, sometimes it is incredible when guys will say, “What a dog.” And you realize she is a heck of a lot better looking woman, than he is a guy. But guys are always comparing women they meet in real like to some model/actress fantasy of perfection. It is incredible when you hear some beerbellied guy talk about some perfectly average-sized (or even thin, but not model thin) woman as a fat cow. Whereas a guy has to be pretty exceptionally fat or ugly to merit any comment of him being anything other than “just a guy.” And an “unusual” looking guy can be described as distinguished, or some other complimentary term. Women have it a lot tougher as far as looks are concerned.
Here’s another observation. Perhaps “normals” insult “uglies” because they are somehow made uncomfortable by them. I was thinking about folk with physical deformities. The kind of thing where you don’t know how to act. Do you look, or not? Of course, you should treat such folk the same as anyone else, but I must admit I have been thrown for a loss in the past. (I know - this paragraph was very poorly phrased.)
I think there are an incredibly few people who are really physically beautiful. The vast majority of the rest of us are somewhere on the continuum of “normal looking.” And then, there are an equally small nmumber of truly unattractive folk at the other end. I think a lot of where people view you as standing on that continuum is influenced by your personality and attitude. And how you view yourself.
I certainly can’t disagree with that–we are all the sum of our experiences. And, yeah, this issue is something of a pet peave of mine–I’ve known far too many people who have been hurt by being labled “ugly” and/or “fat,” and thus given the message that they are unworthy of love, or friendship, or jobs, or what have you. If somebody hates you because of your race, or your religion, or your sexual orientation, you have a lot of company. If soneone hates you because of your looks, you’re all alone with that. Ugly is an orphan.
I’m going to use Anthracite as an example–she is a lesbian, as I assume everybody knows. In some contexts this may be relevant–in a discussion of gay issues, for instance, she’s going to have a different perspective from a straight male like myself, even if we might come to the same ultimate conclusions. It might even be relevant in a general political discussion to show why she is a liberal…except the wheels fall off at that point, 'cause she ain’t a liberal, and the stereotype starts falling to pieces.
In most contexts, Anthra’s sexual orientation has about as much relevance as whether I wear boxers or briefs–none whatsoever. Bringing up that she’s a lesbian in a discussion of coal-fired power plants would be an accurate observation, but would serve no purpose except labeling for the sake of labeling.
(Now I’m gonna slink the hell outta here before she takes exception to my using her to make my point. Self-preservation first.)
