What on earth makes you think this was done from a cowering position?
And damn it to hell, I mean bludgeoned.
I’m not going to say anything specific about RM, but I will say that having beein on the ‘internet’ since before the days when it was the ‘internet’ (BBSs and such), I know what it’s like to be frustrated when people throw out the ‘but you’re still a newbie kid’ type of arguments.
No matter how intelligently phrased or how many big words are used, it’s still an insult. Believe it or not, there are a lot of message boards in the world that operate with roughly the same rules and type of behaviors that this one has, and if someone’s been around the internet for a long time and has been on many of them, it gets real old to be told ‘go sit down newbie until you learn how this whole thing works.’
It’s rather like being on IRC, joining a new channel, and having someone explain to you how to use the /me command assuming you’ve never been on IRC before. If you’ve been there almost ten years and mention that, then still get treated like an idiot newbie and flamed, it’s natural to fire back.
I guess when you keep on talking about how he had to lash back 'cause he was bludgeoned etc, I’m getting a mental picture of some one who, well, wasn’t enjoying the event. that’s why I used the word cowering.
and that just doesn’t match with what my impressions were of the guy.
From what I saw (and I know you’ll correct me if wrong), the sequence was :
he’d post something.
and people would ignore it, say something neutral/positive back, or say something scathing.
he’d only respond to the scathing remark.
If there was no scathing remark, he’d either leave the thread or make some other comment, more extreme.
When some one else would post something supportive of him
he’d make no response.
some one react negatively, he’d blast back.
I didn’t see him interacting in a positive manner with anyone (again, I admittedly didn’t read every single one of his posts).
but, even in the threads where he did drive by comments, they weren’t directed to any particular poster.
And, IIRC, kabbes posted here at length about the first several posts of his where he was supportive of the guy, and there was no reaction from him.
I’m not saying that he had to bend and kiss anyone who wasn’t at his throat, but when some one responds directly only to negative comments why on earth would you assume that wasn’t what he was after?
My take (and obviously you disagree) was that he was one of the sorts of people who enjoy controversy, enjoy a heated give and take, and took pride in his ability to be creatively insulting. So, he finds this place, notes that there’s a forum designed exactly for controversy and venom and makes himself cozy. His web site seemed like more of the same, so I’m really tending to believe that he enjoyed it, wanted exactly that.
Of course, that’s not all that is here, and I’ve seen prior mod admonishions to folks who seem to only want to dwell in the pit. and you gotta admit, his pit/nonpit post comparison is substantial. (which also reminds me of the whole “posting only in the pit” nooooooo, loooky here, he posted once over here and once over there, so obviously that’s wrong!! gig. )
I hope Uncle Beer doesn’t mind my saying so but he felt the same way. I had a brief email exchange with him around the time of his first post in the Tool thread.
I do want to say that I’m not too comfortable with the Pit/non-Pit ratio argument by itself, even though I’ve used it myself. My posting record probably shows a great majority of time spent in the Pit, and I do hang out here a lot. Mostly because I think the conversations here are the most interesting, and all the forums tend to mesh together here.
Like I said, I don’t like that argument by itself. But then if you consider how many of his posts were directed toward flames of some kind (I haven’t actually done a count, but I’ve seen a good majority of his 100-odd posts), and how few of his posts actually had something other than snotty down-the-nose sneering, well…it says a little bit more about his intentions.
A 'net veteran may think he’s entitled to some level of respect, but the real vets know that when they enter a new community, they’re the newbies. It doesn’t matter how much experience they have on other forums; on this one, they’re a newbie. And if Mykeru was really serious about wanting to post and contribute here, he would have made some kind of appeal to that effect. Such a thing can be done without looking like you’re cowering, after all.
Maybe he did make such an appeal. I doubt it, otherwise he’d’ve been taken a lot more seriously than he has been. He joined the board with guns a-blazin’, and never let up. And the Dopers, particularly the people in the Pit, are just as proud and unwilling to back down as he was/is. So they retaliated, and he retaliated in response to their retaliation, and they retaliated in response…you get the idea.
OK, wring, I can see that, but I don’t see why that’s wrong. Ruffle some feathers, get banned? Why’s that fair? What rules did he break?
So it boiled down to “This hyar town ain’t big enough for the both of us?” He got banned without breaking any rules?
Real vets of the internet know not to treat someone like shit and act condescending just because that person hasn’t been active in one particular forum for very long.
There is no way to tell how long someone lurked before registering and posting, and no reason to insult someone with the ‘well you’re new here’ crap unless you’re really trying to rile them up.
Unfortunately there are many places on the internet that crap gets slung. The expectation for a newbie to suck up whatever comes their way without retort soley because of their registration date or post count has become in and of itself a nasty way for regulars at one particular site to single someone out and harass them to keep them from becoming regular, and that shit is stupid.
I can tell you for sure that if someone’s going to treat me without respect after having been through this schtick for as long as I have, I’m not responding to it by cowering down and kissing ass. Spend 15 years online and what you find out is that very little is different from place to place. The usernames are about it.
Damned if I know. People can be arrested for disturbing the peace, after all. Though that hardly holds true in the Pit. shrug Got me, I wasn’t in on the Admin discussion.
They should also know to not be so antagonistic when breaking into a new community, catsix. Like I said in an earlier post, it’s like a guest at a party you’re hosting coming up to you and going off about how other hosts at so many other parties have been dicks and abused their position of power, etc. etc. Possibly forgivable, since he wasn’t talking about you specifically, but he shouldn’t exactly be surprised if you get a little annoyed.
Eh. Either way. I’ve no dog in this fight, and I’m about ready to let it go. I’m just very puzzled that people are defending an ultra-acerbic poster who hadn’t even shown that he could contribute as much as, say, Collounsbury.
well, the one that says (no, I’m not going to say ‘don’t be a jerk’) “don’t spend nearly all your time here pointing out how stupid you think the rules are, how horrible everyone who posts here is, including mods, then start a pit thread doing a countdown to your banning and not expect to be banned”. seriously - he had nothing positive to say about anything here (that I saw), people, rules, mods etc. Who was it recently that got banned w/the admin saying something to the effect of ‘well, since you hate it here so very much, I’ll help you keep away’ ? there is merit to the idea.
He certainly was warned that his behavior was not appreciated. and in the disclaimer, it does indeed say ‘we reserve the right to ban for any reason or no reason’ (or whatever porc quoted to Dinsdale).
So, in short, while he may have enjoyed to the max hanging out in the pit getting nasty w/all comers, I don’t know of anyone else here who does just that. Sure, there’s folks who hang out in the pit a lot (hell, most of my recent posts have been in here), but not damn near every post being involved in flame wars with other posters, kevetching about the rules, etc.
He may have been provoked to a degree, but, like I said I didn’t see him react to anything other than provocation, which leads me to believe that’s all he was interested in. and, even with provocation, you’re still responsible for your own actions.
I’ve seen other newbies start off in the pit and have a mod suggest to them ‘try some of our other forums, too’. some of them do and are still here. others didn’t and ended up getting banned.
while there isn’t a rule that says you may not spend all of your time in the pit (and I don’t think there should be), it is the easiest forum for some one to cross the line between acceptable and unacceptable behavior. and ignoring warnings that you’re straddling the line isn’t a smart plan if your intent is to remain a member here.
Surely you remember Suspenderzzzz, who was essentially banned for being an attention whore. Rev. was little more than an intelligent version of Suspenderzzzz in the end. In all seriousness, I suggested Rev. search for those posts and learn from them if he wanted to avoid the same fate. Twice I suggested he take a cue from december, Mr. Controversy-for-Controversy’s-Sake himself. Did he listen? Evidently not. Was it too late? Maybe so but IMO only because he chose to be a martyr.
And you are…?
That is such a wide-open set up for a tacky Coldfire joke.
No.
No.
As our late, lamentable President so succinctly put it: “But that would be wrong.”
Resolutely high-minded,
Veb
Other than the famous “Don’t be a jerk” rule?
There’s one that was created for a poster named (something like) “24KaratGoldie” or somesuch. She was a troll who I started noticing after Melingate who showed up to bitch, moan and piss about how we stunk, the mods stunk, the boards stunk and not much else. Finally she was banned by Tuba or Lynn who said (paraphrased heavily) “If more than 2/3ds of your posts are simply to gripe about the board, the mods, or other posters, don’t be suprised if you’re not here long.” (I can’t find th’ damned thread!)
The VAST majority of Rev’s posts were bitching about how the SDMB sucked. Keen. Now he doesn’t have to suffer by being in our presence.
Fenris
All of which points to an incredibly nebulous, inconsistent interpretation of whatever the heck the “rules” are, wring. Sloppy standards make for sloppy moderation. It’s like Fenris points out about GD…as long as you know how to play the rules, you can pretty much insult with impunity. Why not just say “address the argument, not the poster. No insults, period.”?
I stand by my assertion that he was provoked to more than “a degree.” One may enjoy a little rough argumentative give-and-take without enjoying being called a “corpse-humping ass muncher,” or whatever. His first post was one of a lack of sympathy for Pat Robertson, he was told that his viewpoint wasn’t “gracious,” he essentially asked “so?” and it spiralled downward from there. In fact, at one point, there was a specific statement from iampunha to “think of Mykeru as an all-purpose punching bag.”
As for the warnings he received, I don’t remember any mods warning him. I remember Bricker warning him. I remember Sauron warning him, but I don’t remember a mod giving him warning. Link me if there was, please, because my search function seems to be unreliable at the moment.
Whoa. Speak of the big wolf, and who shall appear?
Shit.
NOW I find it. The thread was here and Lynn’s post said
Try to tell me that these words couldn’t be perfectly applied to the late, unlamented Reverend M.
Fenris
See? I’m even prescient. I appeared before you mentioned my name.
Being in the Clique[sup]tm[/sup] allows me to access the special precognitive search feature, so I can do vanity searches on threads where my name will appear (but hasn’t yet!)
O’ course, now that I’ve told you, I’ll haveta kill you.
Fenris
I recall Coldy suggesting to him to check out other forums. and IIRC, Beer told him ‘we’re reviewing your posting history, discussing your case’
again, I’m not necessarily claiming there was a ‘rule’ gig. He did not much more than bitch about the posters, the rules, the mods. If it all was so very beneath him, troublesome for him etc, then why would he want to be here, other than continue to bitch etc.
and as for ‘more than provoked’. surely you jest. have you seen the **Joe_Cool/Jersey vs. gobear/Guin ** threads??
venom beyond belief. it’s the pit, remember.
and, as you’ve acknowledged, this seems to be the sort of thing he’s most comfortable doing - as in his own web site. Surely if it’s your own preferred means of communicating w/others, you can’t simultaneously claim to have been ‘provoked’.
to me being ‘provoked’ is when some one gets under your skin enough to help get you to act in ways other than your normal modus operendi. All that venom seemed to have been his preferred way. (as an example, some one once asked me if I was getting riled in a thread, and I linked them to a post I’d written to somebody who’d just really pissed me off and every other word was ‘fuck’ something like ‘fuck, listen you fucking ass, if you fucking ever used your fucking brain’ etc. Since I don’t normally talk that way, I’d use that as an example of what happened when I’d been ‘provoked’.)