RO: Glenn Beck compares Utøya murder victims to Hitler Youth

[GIGObuster]

@BrainGlutton

Nitpick: That song dates to 1841 and was an anthem of early German nationalism. The message is not that Germany should be set above other nations, but that Germans everywhere should be more loyal to Germany-as-a-whole than to their own particular principalities.

Nitpick to that nit.

The song did not become the anthem until the political right in Germany in 1922 got the song to be the anthem, precisely because of those lyrics.

During the Nazi era that line then got the meaning that Germany was going to rule over others indeed, and that is the reason why you do not see that line nowadays in the German anthem now.

[elucidator]

Hey, that’s German humor! Blood and irony.

[GIGObuster]

@Chen019

How is Norway a better place as a result of their recent immigration policies?

This is like playing Pokemon.

Chen changes the subject once he notices how rotten the original point was..

Even that was not effective..

[Chen019]

@BrainGlutton

[shrug] Time was, I have no doubt, one could have cited similar statistics (assuming the existence of statistics compilation) about poor Irish or Italian immigrants in American cities. Doesn’t mean letting them in was a bad idea.

As Mighty_Girl might ask, cite?

I guess you can keep your head in the sand Brain Glutton. You wouldn’t want anything to interfere with your belief in “internationalism” right?

The EUMC report, while a significant step in recognizing the new anti-Semitism in Europe, and reflecting the end to the denial of the problem by European leaders, is flawed and contradictory.

We are disappointed that in its public statements, the EUMC downplays its own conclusions that the new anti-Semitic outbreak is connected to the Arab-Israeli conflict and that incidents are being primarily perpetrated by Muslim immigrant youth, and concerned by the report’s narrow approach to the connection of anti-Zionism to anti-Semitism.

Even after a previous EUMC report produced in 2003 was not released by the Centre, reportedly because of the report’s conclusion that Muslim immigrants were responsible for the sharp increase in anti-Semitic violence in the Spring of 2002, the EU still appears unwilling to acknowledge its own findings that Muslim immigrant youth are increasingly responsible for anti-Semitic violence motivated by the conflict in the Middle East.

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/4473_13.htm

What has taken place here is that Frits Bolkestein, the former leader of the Liberal Party, which now heads the Dutch government, has advised “recognizable Jews, orthodox Jews” that their children should emigrate from the Netherlands to Israel or the United States. He said, “I see no future for them here because of anti-Semitism, above all among the Moroccan Dutch, whose numbers continue to grow.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/04/world/europe/04iht-politicus04.html?pagewanted=1

[BaneSidhe]

I’d wish that Glenn Beck would be eaten by a shark but that’s animal abuse and polluting the oceans.

[Chen019]

@GIGObuster

This is like playing Pokemon.

Chen changes the subject once he notices how rotten the original point was..

Even that was not effective..

You said conservative policies made Europe a worse place, so I asked you whether you’d considered the problems created by loose recruitment policies that don’t account for cultural differences. Unsurprisingly your brain clams up - in your universe immigration is always a good thing. It doesn’t matter who comes, or what culture they have.

[BrainGlutton]

@Chen019

As Mighty_Girl might ask, cite?

WRT the Irish (though he has a more favorable view of the Italians), a good source is The New Americans, by Michael Barone.

[Chen019]

@BrainGlutton

WRT the Irish (though he has a more favorable view of the Italians), a good source is The New Americans, by Michael Barone.

Cheers So you think Muslims will generally end up with similar liberal views to yourself on social issues? I’d be a bit more skeptical for the time being.

[GIGObuster]

@Chen019

You said conservative policies made Europe a worse place

The context was Nazi Germany when the Hitler Youth was set and running. Yes, Europe got worse.

Your universe clearly has no knowledge of timelines or time itself. No wonder you can not see progress.

[Kimstu]

@Chen019

As Mighty_Girl might ask, cite?

I don’t think there’s much difficulty in finding sources for the claim that Irish immigrants to the US in the nineteenth century were widely considered bad news. Crime, violence, religious riots, prejudice, cultural hostility: read all about it. Hell, churches in Philadelphia and other places were burned down in “Irish riots”. Segregation and slum conditions led to as much as quadruple increases in crime.

Xenophobia and fear about Irish immigrants back then were definitely comparable to what many Westerners feel about Muslim immigrants today, and I’m sure many Americans were just as pessimistic about the prospects of full assimilation of Irish newcomers as you are now about the assimilation of Muslims.

[matt_mcl]

Here’s what a youth wing member says (comment section):

There are youth parties for all political parties in Norway, led by youth, designed for youth to have fun, learn about politics and be able to engage and unite in making our country better.

There’s no one forcing us to join these parties and attend every meeting. We’re not being fed lies. We have the opportunity to learn about politics and form our own opinions.

I’ve not been much involved with AUF though I’m a member, but I know most members are compassionate and engaged in making the world a better place. What better way is there for teenagers to spend their energy?
[…]

Some of the best youth we have were murdered in cold blood - and we all would’ve said that regardless of political views. Like the politicians of Norway has said: “In this time of sorrow we’re all members of the AUF”.

@Chen019

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/admissions-of-illiberalism/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8570506/Police-covered-up-violent-campaign-to-turn-London-area-Islamic.html

DO. NOT. appropriate the oppression that MY. community faces to justify the oppression of another. In particular, anti-Muslim and anti-immigration bullshit makes life harder for Muslims and immigrants who are queer. It makes it harder for them to flee persecution, it makes it harder for them to reunite with their loved ones, it makes their situation in the LGBTQ community more difficult, and it makes it harder for them to conduct and seek solidarity for their struggle against the oppression that they face both as LGBTQ people and as victims of racism and xenophobia. It’s awfully convenient when people who argue like you wring their hands about LGBTQ rights when you want to wield us like a club against Muslims, multiculturalism, and immigration. We can do without your “help,” thanks.

[Chen019]

@GIGObuster

The context was Nazi Germany when the Hitler Youth was set and running. Yes, Europe got worse.

Your universe clearly has no knowledge of timelines or time itself. No wonder you can not see progress.

I can see progress. Unlike you I can also see problems (attacks on gays, rising anti-semitism, rapes), while you dismiss them because they clash with your “internationalism”.

[humanafterall]

Whenever Glen Beck talks, I get my face frozen in the expression of David Silverman, president of American Atheists, whos face became popular when it was used in an f7u12.com comic. you know, the WTF face.

[Chen019]

@matt_mcl

DO. NOT. appropriate the oppression that MY. community faces to justify the oppression of another. In particular, anti-Muslim and anti-immigration bullshit makes life harder for Muslims and immigrants who are queer. It makes it harder for them to flee persecution, it makes it harder for them to reunite with their loved ones, it makes their situation in the LGBTQ community more difficult, and it makes it harder for them to conduct and seek solidarity for their struggle against the oppression that they face both as LGBTQ people and as victims of racism and xenophobia. It’s awfully convenient when people who argue like you wring their hands about LGBTQ rights when you want to wield us like a club against Muslims, multiculturalism, and immigration. We can do without your “help,” thanks.

I’m just pointing out empirical evidence of why large scale immigration of Muslims to liberal European countries might not be a good idea. If you don’t like that evidence, it’s not my problem.

Tower Hamlets’ gay community has become a particular target of extremists. Homophobic crimes in the borough have risen by 80 per cent since 2007/8, and by 21 per cent over the last year, a period when there was a slight drop in London as a whole.

Last year, a mob of 30 young Muslims stormed a local gay pub, the George and Dragon, beating and abusing patrons. Many customers of the pub told The Sunday Telegraph that they have been attacked and harassed by local Muslim youths. In 2008 a 20-year-old student, Oli Hemsley, was left permanently paralysed after an attack by a group of young Muslims outside the pub. Only one of his assailants has been caught and jailed.

Even during meetings of the local council, prominent supporters of Tower Hamlets’ controversial directly-elected mayor, Lutfur Rahman – dropped by the Labour Party for his links to Islamic fundamentalism - have persistently targeted gay councillors with homophobic abuse and intimidation from the public gallery.

The Labour leader, Josh Peck, was attacked with animal noises and cries of “Unnatural acts! Unnatural acts!” when he rose to speak. The Conservative leader, Peter Golds, was repeatedly heckled as “Mrs Golds” and a “poofter”.

Police 'covered up' violent campaign to turn London area 'Islamic'

Growing violence against gays in the Netherlands prompted gay rights organizations to mount a demonstration in Amsterdam yesterday. It is a well-known fact — although not always a publicly-acknowledged one — that most of the anti-gay violence comes from Muslim immigrants or their Dutch-born descendants.

http://bigpeace.com/nmay/2010/09/07/violence-against-gays-in-amsterdam/

[GIGObuster]

@Chen019

I can see progress.

.. by ignoring the invasions and the holocaust, keep digging Chen.

(Here is a hint Chen: once the Hitler Youth was no more, then we could talk about progress in Europe.)

[BrainGlutton]

@Chen019

Cheers So you think Muslims will generally end up with similar liberal views to yourself on social issues? I’d be a bit more skeptical for the time being.

I think in the long run they will assimilate as well as the Irish, though of course they should be aiming higher.

And we’ll accept them eventually. Though it will help if we can unite in hatred of those goddamn not-even-Abrahamic dothead Indians or something. See How the Irish Became White.

[Sailboat]

Hey, Chen019, this thread is for pitting Glen Beck’s idiotic and offensive comment, not for complaining about actual immigration.

[GIGObuster]

@BrainGlutton

I think in the long run they will assimilate as well as the Irish, though of course they should be aiming higher.

And we’ll accept them eventually. Though it will help if we can unite in hatred of those goddamn not-even-Abrahamic dothead Indians or something. See How the Irish Became White.

As I see that Chen is denying progress in assimilation elsewhere one has to bring this:

Or since we’re supposed to be worried about them, let’s consider muslims. Muslims in Canada have a higher assimilation rate than any other country in the world. When it comes to a comparison with Europe, the gap is enormous. And the USA is close behind Canada; in fact “In the United States, immigrants born in predominantly Muslim nations are more assimilated than the rest of the foreign-born population, and this is true in the United States alone.” (my bold). Another interesting nugget from the data: The female employment rate for muslim immigrants in Canada is 49%, and is 50% in the USA. Compare this with a female employment rate for native-born women in Greece (40%) Italy (44%) and Spain (42%).

[Chen019]

@GIGObuster

As I see that Chen is denying progress in assimilation elsewhere one has to bring this:

Immigrants to Canada and the US (in terms of Muslim immigrants) are more likely to be well educated and skilled.

In Europe this isn’t necessarily the case. So you’re getting a growing underclass in some places and assimilation isn’t necessarily happening:

So things are getting worse in the 3 largest European countries, not better. (The paper had no data on second generation immigrants to Sweden, but I am pretty sure they do better than the first generation).

Why is this happening? One reason may be that the first generation contains people who moved to Europe in order to work. Because they were selected on this trait, they have above average work ethic for their group. The second generation only has some of this advantage left.

Perhaps these are not actually parent-children pairs, and the only cause of the results is that the composition of first generation immigrants changed for the better before they had time to have children (I doubt this).

Another, more troubling possibility is that the second generation are assimilating into a completely new culture. This is not the standard, successful western-European culture, but a new kind of mixed ghetto culture that emphasizes grievances, hostility to the host society, weak norms and a lack of a work ethic…

Comparing Second generation male immigrant relative employment rates with the first generation immigrants:

UK -10%
France -13%
Germany -19%

Comparing Second generation female immigrant relative employment rates with the first generation immigrants:

UK +15%
France +8%
Germany +2%

Employment rates (the figure in the parenthesis compared immigrants to the native born):

U.K

Native Men: 79.0%

First generation non-European immigrant Men: 67.8% (-14%)

Second generation non-European immigrant Men: 60.0% (-24%)

Native women: 66.5%

First generation non-European immigrant Women: 43.3% (-35%)

Second generation non-European immigrant Women: 53.5% (-20%)

France

Native Men: 66.3%

First generation non-European immigrant Men: 61.6% (-7%)

Second generation non-European immigrant Men: 53.0% (-20%)

Native Women: 58.9%

First generation non-European immigrant Women: 37.6% (-36%)

Second generation non-European immigrant Women: 42.4% (-28%)

Germany

Native Men: 75.3%

First generation non-European immigrant Men: 68.5% (-9%)

Second generation non-European immigrant Men: 53.9% (-28%)

Native women: 65.8%

First generation non-European immigrant Women: 42.5% (-35%)

Second generation non-European immigrant Women: 43.8% (-33%)

[Gorsnak]

So the moral of the thread is, Chen019 is just as despicable as Glen Beck. Congratulations. That takes some doing.