Yeah, come on, it’s AMERICANS doing the torturing, how could it be as bad?
I understand the analogy with torture, but this is a directed method of execution.
They are qualitatively different.
The purpose of torture is to extract information, presumably.
The purpose of execution is to terminate the life of another person.
Humans torture and execute and have done so since the dawn of civilization as far as I know.
The US and some of the individual states have a publicly acknowledged policy of execution for certain crimes.
The US also has a policy of torture whether that policy is publicly acknowledged or not.
I believe that our shared outrage (feigned or not) is that this woman is being threatened with execution for the crime of adultery. If she were, as a counterexample, charged with murdering her children then I doubt if we would be as outraged.
What’s Farsi for “Stone the mullahs!”?
Just wondering… putting aside the argument that stoning and waterboarding are the same thing, what is it that most posters are finding upsetting about the story? stoning as a form of punishment? or the excessive punishment for a seemingly minor crime?
That is what I have a issue with, the fact that the punishment far out does the crime and the fact that women in Iran ( and other similar countries) are treated as sub-human and can be put to death for minor offenses, whereas men there can get away with all kinds of crimes and mistreatments to women and recieve no punishment.
As far as stoning itself as a form of punishment, yes if the crime fits, I would have no problem with it… rape and kill a child? Oh yeah hand me some rocks and let me have my shots at the bastard.
As far as waterboarding and other usually nonlethal tortures… You have a parking ticket or overdue library books? No… You have known terrorist connections and have information to stop an attack or save hundreds of lives? Yeah turn on the water.
You’re obviously a subhuman, so it would be OK to torture you, right?
Even setting aside the abhorrent notion that it’s OK to torture a prisoner of war at any time, you must confront the fact that a sizable fraction of the prisoners in Guantanamo are random chicken farmers who were turned in for the generous bounties that the US offers to Pakistanis for information on “terrorists.” Our country tortures innocent people, so let’s not get too outraged when it’s compared to Muslim states stoning women.
Of course I don’t approve of it. That doesn’t mean it’s as bad as executing somebody without a fair trial.
Of course, most of us figured out some time ago that nobody knows who has information which will stop an attack or save hundreds of lives.
The only difference between a real man and a strawman is a matter of degree. Oh, and all that fuckin’ straw.
Torture under a slow public humiliating execution where the helpless victim can only see a prolonged future of extreme pain and stress without respite is several orders of magnitude of evil above a torture regimen that does not kill or maim and where the victim has a say in terminating the procedure.
It behooves us to focus on the greater evils that exist in the world in order to stamp them out, rather than to minimize them by erroneously suggesting a degree of equivalence with lesser evil because others are doing the same thing.
The difference in American society and Iranian society wrt to their relative humanity towards others is vast and should not be glossed over. But that should be little consolation to Americans. I just saw a documentary on the history of baseball in the US including the opposition to black players in major
e league baseball for over 60 years. My how different the US is today(never mind all that lynching). Or the history of Germany tells us that we western countries are not that far away from equivalent evil.
Yes, you (and Robot ) are correct, it was misused and over used the Bush Admin. I didn’t mean to sound like I condoned it being used on innocent prisoners, but I can see the need for such necessary tactics to gain information.
I do not agree with saying that stoning someone is equal to waterboarding. One is a torture tactic that, yes may make you think you are going to be killed and yes can sometimes lead to an accidental death. The other one is an execution with the sole intent of death.
Reports like this are stunningly easy to find. Where is your high horse now?
Mr. Excellent asked “Who does things like that?” and I gave him a GQ style answer. It’s too bad that upsets the worldview of so many dopers, but that doesn’t make my answer any less correct. If you want to ensure that you can always engage in a torture RO from a position of moral unassailability, you need to make an effort to ensure that your country does not engage in torturing people to death. That attitude’s been sadly rare in the US since 9/11.
Torture? Certainly not, I am totally opposed to such a thing and always have been.
The death sentence? I am opposed, but have admit I can get excited and thing any one particular person ought to be executed. I lack the courage of my anti-DP convictions.
I’ve known a few of those myself. That should serve to keep us a little humble, but humility quickly goes missing in these RO threads about how badly horrible and awful our enemies are, when compared to our own enlightened selves.
Why should I, chief? You don’t want to show you are an equal opportunity hijacker with a fair and balanced out look, it’s no skin off my ass. Besides, we both know that you aren’t and that no such post from you exists.
As things stand, you have repeatedly tried to cover for your ridiculous hijack by lashing out at others in a completely off topic manner. How’s that working out for you so far? From my perspective you are looking like a complete idiot, but perhaps things look differently from your viewpoint…?
Whether I do or don’t is irrelevant (I don’t, FWIW). I don’t support stoning middle aged women who’s crime might have been fucking a guy not her husband. What’s your thoughts on that topic?
You’ve made it clear that you can only think of any subject in terms of the US…other than that you haven’t really made anything clear, nor given anything remotely resembling a thought on the subject of this thread. As for excuses, I’ve made none for the US in this thread…merely pointed out that your ridiculous comparison is, well, ridiculous. As you are for continuing down this path.
Why does Bush, America or the Iraq/Afghan war have anything to do with the subject at hand? Is Bush in charge of Iran? Secretly pulling their puppet strings? Is the US behind the judicial attempt at murder here? Your arguments here are the equivalent of saying “I don’t want to talk about the Nazi’s murdering Jews, since the Brits tortured folks in India and kept them under their boot heels.” in a thread discussing the Holocaust. While it’s true that the Brits did those things, it has no relevance to the discussion. It’s, you know, a subject for a separate thread. I realize you aren’t getting this, but I figured I’d gamely try and beat it through your thick skull anyway, all in the name of…well, ok. I just like pointing out how silly you are being, really. It’s a small amusement, but at my age you have to take what you can get, amusement-wise.
Oh, to be sure. It’s ‘scummy’ to point at someone making a stupid comparison and then further pointing out how ridiculous they are being.
I don’t find you ‘scummy’ so much as amusing for trying to pin strawmen on everyone who disagrees with you and then asking ridiculous questions like ‘Well, do YOU support torture???’, as if the question has any relevance in this discussion. It’s REALLY amusing that you are using the same tactics as the ‘RR’ folks you decry (as well as the religious nutters that pop in from time to time).
Were you aware that when I was going through basic that they used to do this to the recruits? So I’ve had some personal experience with it. Do I support doing this to prisoners? No, I don’t. I don’t support beatings with rubber hoses either (another thing I’ve had the pleasure of experiencing).
The thing is, this thread isn’t ABOUT waterboarding. It’s not about America or torture either. It’s about stoning a woman to death for fucking. While I can’t speak from personal experience on the subject of being stoned to death, I’ve certainly been hit with a rock before and read enough about the process to determine that being waterboarded (or tortured) doesn’t hold a candle to being stoned to death. I’d say that the only worse death they could think of would be burning her alive. Whatever America (or any other country) has or hasn’t done, whatever heinous things have transpired in other countries, stoning a woman to death for adultery is wrong. Full stop.
Seriously…no all subjects revolve around America or need to have Bush involved in the discussion. I realize that’s hard for you to grasp, but give it a whirl, ehe?
-XT
Yeah xt, just make up shit and lie about me.
You make the accusations, you prove em. It’s that simple. Just as the fact that America tortures people to death is similar to the fact that Iran tortures people to death.
That’s very simple, you should stop living in denial.
I suppose the REAL question is; what government CONDONES that sort of thing. When American personnel were discovered doing those things to those people in Abu Ghraib, they were prosecuted.
Bear in mind, the woman in question was first tortured and will now be killed at the behest of the people. There is a million miles of difference between THAT and the objectionable yet not purposely fatal tactics of American soldiers.
You can compare the Iranians to many groups of monsters throughout the course of history, but to draw a straight line between Iran and America by way of accepted policy and action is profoundly ignorant and meant only to stir the passions of those with short attention spans. In other words, to slowly drag the tasty bait along the top of the lake until SOME one comes along and takes it…
Yeah xt, just make up shit and lie about me.
You make the accusations, you prove em. It’s that simple. Just as the fact that America tortures people to death is similar to the fact that Iran tortures people to death.
That’s very simple, you should stop living in denial.
Oh, you’d like our former torturing ways to be off limits for discussion because they happened under a Republican president?
Well isn’t that just convenient for you and your friends. 
It’s despicable of you even to mention such a possibility.
This is true, but we didn’t do squat to work our prosecutorial way up the chain of command to the people who set the environment. Plus we’ve got that shit down in Guantanamo, eg Ohio psychologist faces license fight over work at Guantanamo, that no one can claim wasn’t directly government sponsored.
Seriously…have you tried upping the voltage? If not, I suggest you give it a try.
I didn’t make an accusation, I made an assertion. This isn’t Great Debates, and as I said, it’s no skin off my ass either way. If YOU want to try and show that you are more than a one trick pony, then that’s all well and good. If not, then I’m good with that, especially since I’d be shocked if my assertion weren’t true. Either way, it really has not bearing on the subject of the thread other than for you to try and further muddy the waters. I note that you have still not actually addressed the subject of the thread, but simply continue to go off on tangents that don’t relate to the OP.
It’s not just a river in Egypt. That said, and I tell you this from the bottom of my heart…there are many decaffeinated beverages on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing these days, 'mano. Give that some serious consideration.
If you are going to do heavy drugs then common decency dictates that you share them. I don’t mind that you are posting things while obviously stoned (pardon the pun) out of your mind, just that you aren’t sharing the wealth.
Like those in your pocket that whisper to you at night? Or perhaps those under your bed? When you sober up a bit perhaps you could elucidate some on which friends you are talking about…
Quite…
-XT
I would be enraged if it wasn’t Iran. Unfortunately religious views are sacrosanct and never to be dissed. Why don’t you draw me a picture of Mohamed and we can discussed your death.
No, and nor should they. You don’t indict the police chief because an officer murders someone in the line of duty, that’s not feasible. Whether there were disciplinary actions against them we will likely never know, nor should we.
And that guy? He’s being accused, but accusations are not convictions and it seems not worthy of criminal charges. There’s a reason Guantanamo is still open, even after Obama said he’d close it. You may not like or agree with it, but the last thing we need is the people we’ve plucked off the battlefield in dusty crapistan housed here at home.