It’s fun and I’m bored. Besides, Squink has done me a great service by bringing up that totally embarrassing drunken thread. It reminds me yet again why I gave up drinking. 
(I’m unsure of why it’s relevant, but I’m certainly in his debt for bringing back the horror)
-XT
You’re doing a dry drunk thing, xt. You seem to have got in your head that America torturing people to death is somehow totally different than Iran torturing people to death.
Now if upon sober reflection you find yourself agreeing with me (post #5) that torture + death is very similar to torture + death, I’ll be happy to accept your apology. Well, with the caveat that you also decide to remove torture by Americans from your list of topics which must never be discussed for fear of raising the spectre of GWB. That’s just weirdness on your part.
Not really, no. I’m not actually talking about the US or discussing what we did or didn’t do…only you seem to be hell bent on doing that. I realize this is puzzling to you, but the rest of us are discussing Iran and a woman who has been sentenced to death for basically fucking. Granted, the US could be killing people on trumped up charges of terrorism daily, they could be stoning them to death or making them watch endless episodes of Pinky and the Brain until they go mad. But the thing is, in THIS thread we aren’t really discussing any of that. Since you have such a hard on about the evil US, why don’t you start a thread on it? Sure, that would be difficult for you to do in your current nearly incoherent state, but why not give it a try?
But see, that’s not what you said. Here, let me quote what you actually said:
Waterboarding isn’t about death. If death was the intended goal, then they would, you know, simply drown the person being tortured. It’s about TORTURE…it’s intent is to extract information or just hurt someone. Stoning IS about death…it’s intent is not to extract information, only to cause the maximum amount of pain on the way to death. Death is the goal, see?
Mind, I’m no fan of waterboarding, and hated when they did this to us in the service. I dislike with extreme prejudice that my country has participated in torture, regardless of the justification…not least because I don’t think it actually works and it opens the door to abuse, corruption and all manner of slippery slopes that I don’t believe we should be going down. If you opened a debate on that topic I’d be more than happy to give my two cents worth on the subject (and a bargain at twice the price!).
Here’s the thing though…not every topic has to involve the US, either in a good or bad light. It’s irrelevant if the US tortures someone every day and twice on Sundays to the topic at hand. To me, you are excusing the Iranian’s by, in effect, saying ‘well, the US does it’ with the unspoken ‘so we can’t really call them barbarous and pit them’. That’s horseshit. Plain and simple.
We don’t have to be pure as the driven snow to look at a country that condones judicial murder of women (or gays, or people who basically protest against their government, or all manner of other things that could get you chopped in lovely Iran these days) for the ‘crime’ of fucking someone. And, at least according to the story, there isn’t even any freaking PROOF that she indeed had sexual relations with a man or men other than her husband! Not that this should really matter, of course.
That you see no real difference between a guy (who may or may not be innocent) being strapped to an inclined board with a clothe put over his face and water poured over the whole thing (as horrible and unpleasant as that is) and a woman being hit repeatedly with stones until she dies (or, if she is LUCKY, hung by the neck until dead) for the crime of adultery, seriously implies that your grasp on reality is a bit shaky, at best. That you feel the need to come into a thread like this to basically hijack it so you can rant about the US and to make the lame ass excuse that implies that it’s really ok for Iran to do this, since the US tortures people (as if this makes it ok somehow) again strongly implies your grasp of reality is rather tenuous as well.
Straw must be on sale is all I can say…or your ability to read and comprehend is being seriously eroded either by the drugs or by the onset of whatever madness has you in it’s grip.
Damn…another industrial strength irony meter bites the dust!
-XT
Well, the stoning part at least has been dropped. No word on whether the death penalty has also been dropped.
A fast Google search hasn’t revealed what happened to the men she’s accused of having sex with, but according to the BBC, two men were stoned to death in 2009 for the crime of adultery.
It wasn’t relevant to the thread. What is relevant is that you support torture. And you aren’t even honest enough to admit it, so you hide behind “enhanced interrogation” and other such bullshit.
When you claimed to be proud of people in this thread, you seem to be misinterpreting the thread. No one here is saying that torture is okay, like you think. They’re just saying torture is a lesser evil than stoning a woman to death based on the accusation of a crime that really isn’t a big deal in the first place. So if you’re proud that what you support isn’t quite as evil as that, go ahead and pat yourself on the back.
And this is Squink’s proud accomplishment. By falsely throwing together bad thing A and worse thing B, he lends moral support to people who really do support bad thing A – since his original conflation of the two is so ridiculous, opposing bad thing A must be ridiculous in the first place as well.
Good job, Squink!
But there’s a big fat LIE in that comparison. Many of the people we mistreated were not suspected of wrongdoing at all – not “credibly” or “incredibly,” but flat-out not suspected in the first place. A number of them who were taken into custody or surrendered voluntarily were known or believed to be innocent bystanders, who were told we’d sort everything out once things calmed down.
Gov’t officials knew those individuals were neither terrorists nor threats to the US – and eventually permitted them to be mistreated anyway.
Of course not, it’s about causing people to fear that they’re going to drown, and sometimes accidentally* drowning them. Why that’s up there on a moral plane with mother Theresa, compared to throwing rocks at a girl until she’s dead.
When you claim that America doesn’t do things like torture people to death, you’re lying. America does torture people to death. You want to cover up that fact, and then pretend to superior moral standing in regard to Iranian torture. That’d be be pretty sweet, wouldn’t it? A woman gets stoned to death, and you get a nice smuggy warmth inside you. Have you tried cookies with your RO?
*Well, that’s what they say, nudge, nudge.
I think a big part of the problem I have with this line of argument is the simple fact that the thread has nothing to do with America, it’s about Iran. If every time someone points out how barbaric and cruel Iranians are acting you just have someone saying, “look what America does!” You’re not doing anything to make America better, all you’re doing is making excuses for Iran.
It could even work in the opposite direction.
For example, say someone starts a thread in which they complain about America water boarding people. Well, the first poster just says, “Well hey, Al-Qaida cuts the heads off of prisoners. And Iran stones people! We shouldn’t be criticizing America for water boarding in a world where other people do bad things, too!” That doesn’t hold water.
Complaints about the behavior of state actors should be looked at in the context of universal right and wrong, not in comparative bullshit. America water boarding people doesn’t excuse Iran stoning people to death. Iran stoning people to death doesn’t excuse America water boarding people. They are separate issues that need to be evaluated on their own ethical points.
You’re insane.
Martin Hyde, Squink’s posts do have to do with the point of the OP. The last line of the OP asks:
In Squink’s opinion, the answer to the OP’s question is: America does.
Not saying he is right or wrong, but his points do go back to the question asked in the OP.
Best comment so far.
For those of you surprised that things like this happen… What rock have you been living under? <rimshot> Stoning is still a legal punishment for adultery and other islamic crimes in Iran, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan, and Nigeria. Many more countries support publish lashings for adultery.
This makes for sober reading: ReligiousTolerance.org
And if you think that’s bad, if you’re a Muslim you’d better not leave the faith. The mainstream view of Islamic legal scholars is still that apostasy is punishable by death. The Fatwa against Salman Rushdie calling for his death for apostasy was widely supported in the Muslim community, including support from that famous Christian apostate, Cat Stevens. No word on whether Stevens wanted to run over Rushdie with his Peace Train.
Fifteen Christians are in jail in Iran right now, charged with apostasy. If they are convicted, they face death. “Honor Killings” are still common around the world, typically directed at young Muslim women who dare to marry outside the faith, wear provocative clothing (you know, like slacks and a blouse), refuse arranged marriages, have the bad luck of being raped, refuse to allow their husbands to beat them up continuously, or in other ways ‘dishonor’ their families or their faith. They are often killed by the their own fathers and brothers.
These are not small isolated occurrences. There are over 1,000 honor killings per year around the world - maybe many more than that, because many of these crimes go unsolved. The Turkish human rights office says there’s an average of one honor killing a week in Istanbul alone. Roughly 50 women a year are murdered in honor killings in Lebanon. There are about a dozen honor killings per year in the UK among Muslim and Asian families.
Sure I would be…if I actually said that. Unfortunately for you, I never have said that, so if you are implying I did you should recheck the definition of a lie and lying and see if that shoe fits. It certainly seems too.
Dude, seriously…stop sniffing the glue. You are in fantasy land. I’m neither attempting to cover up the fact that the US has used torture in the past (and right now for all I know), nor pretending some kind of moral superiority. While I tried to say the same thing, I agree with Sam that Martin Hyde has put it best: “I think a big part of the problem I have with this line of argument is the simple fact that the thread has nothing to do with America, it’s about Iran. If every time someone points out how barbaric and cruel Iranians are acting you just have someone saying, “look what America does!” You’re not doing anything to make America better, all you’re doing is making excuses for Iran.”
Have you tried upping the voltage with your own? Because seriously man…you need it.
-XT
Hey. Squink. The Middle called. It said it’s feeling left out.
Buddy, I once misinterpreted a thread just to see what it felt like. And this isn’t the thread.
I realize people here don’t support torture like I do (I’ll say it plainly like that if it makes you happy). I’m just used to seeing lots of other nit-wits make similar arguments to those dear Squink is shitting in this thread, so I was surprised that Squink was roundly shouted down. I guess they are just on vacation this week or something.
Honor killings, like Female Genital Mutilation, are cross-cultural situations that have nothing to do with religion. They occur among Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists, and I would not be surprised to discover that animists have their own versions of them. The terminology differs from one culture to another, but the use of violence to ensure that (young) women will not step out of line with cultural norms is not a Muslim phenomenon.
Fine, Islam is a religion of peace and all that. Framing it in cultural terms, if you prefer, then: is it permissable at last to point out that a community’s mainstream culture is totally fucked up? I mean, to what lengths and rhetorical contortions and self-abasing pleas of unworthiness do we have to go through before finally getting to the germane point that whatever you call your invisible Sky Father, what you primitive screwheads are doing over there is fucked in the head, why don’t you leap forward a couple of centuries and knock it the fuck off?
That may be true. But the response was clearly trolling–i.e. trying to start a fight. A really, really, really stupid fight. I hope for Squink’s sake that he(?) was drunk or something.
The better comparison is much of Western Europe 400 years ago. One might argue that Iran is simply 400 years “behind”, and when you consider the 5,000 or so years of civilization behind us, that’s not so big a time frame. The problem, though, is that Iran wasn’t this “backwards” just a few years ago.