Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)

I don’t think this is correct. Stories I see are the whole UN membership will vote on the resolution condemning the Ukraine invasion that Russia vetoed in the UN Security Council. It’s a non-binding resolution that’s expected to pass later this week. I haven’t seen anything about booting Russia from the UN.

It sounds like Putin is throwing everything he has into Ukraine. I can’t imagine a 40 mile convoy.

The US wiped out a long convoy at the end kf the first Gulf War. Our forces had a lot of air power with armor piercing rockets.

This may be over in a couple days unless that convoy is stopped.

One wonders precisely how far they can go. “Ok, I’m going to take off and get you into position… when I give the word, I’m taking my hands off the stick, and the controls are yours. Just keep us going in a straight line and press the red button to launch the missile. When you’ve done your business, I’ll fly us back.”

We can fantasize about B-52s or Warthogs taking out miles of Russian armor all we like, but it’s not like those columns don’t have their own air cover. You need to get rid of the Russian planes before you can attack their ground forces from the air.

There were Russian pilots in Chinese MiG-15s during the Korean war.

NATO could loan Ukraine a few attack helicopters. The guys on the radio would be Ukrainian. :thinking:

They’ve been featured in documentaries

How long is the range of a tank? If they’re near the gates of Kyiv already, maybe hitting their fuel trucks would still allow the tanks to get into Kyiv itself, but then stall out in some intersection or street.

Wolfie (if I may take the liberty), you seem to be a pretty well-educated person; so you know if you’ve read any history that there have been loads of blatantly ruthless murderous thugs in charge of nation-states for centuries. Heck, read some of the more historical parts of the Old Testament and you’ll find blatantly ruthless murderous thugs there–and some of them were the ‘good guys’.

And XT,

Said by someone about every war in human history…doesn’t seem to stop humanity from having them frequently though…

OK, enough picking of nits. On the air front, two C17’s are returning to base from flights to Rzesnow, Poland. Wikipedia describes it as a nice city, but more importantly it’s not all that far from Lviv, Ukraine. Don’t know if the flights were carrying weapons or humanitarian aid (Poland is getting socked by refugees), but it’s about a close as you can put a big plane to the border. One of the C17’s is I.D.'ed as RAF, so the Brits are involved.

So to close;

  1. As HMS Irruncible and others have noted, the first rule of warfare is “Everybody Lies”

  2. The second rule (which I am pleased to see most here abide by) is "Amateurs study Tactics; Professionals study Logistics.

Time will tell. And my belated thanks to all who are contributing; I am avoiding network news of all shapes and sizes so this thread is providing most of my information and doing it quite well.

Yes, you are of course correct - I got ahead of myself there.

To say nothing of the organic AA in the convoy itself.

I doubt that was an accident. It was likely a way to make Putin look both foolish and dangerous.

Interesting tidbit from the NYT live blog - Microsoft to the rescue:

Last Wednesday, a few hours before Russian tanks began rolling into Ukraine, alarms went off inside Microsoft’s Threat Intelligence Center, warning of a never-before-seen piece of “wiper” malware that appeared aimed at the country’s government ministries and financial institutions.

Within three hours, Microsoft threw itself into the middle of a ground war in Europe — from 5,500 miles away. The threat center, north of Seattle, had been on high alert, and it quickly picked apart the malware, named it “FoxBlade” and notified Ukraine’s top cyberdefense authority. Within three hours, Microsoft’s virus detection systems had been updated to block the code, which erases — “wipes” — data on computers in a network.

Then Tom Burt, the senior Microsoft executive who oversees the company’s effort to counter major cyberattacks, contacted Anne Neuberger, the White House’s deputy national security adviser for cyber- and emerging technologies. Ms. Neuberger asked if Microsoft would consider sharing details of the code with the Baltics, Poland and other European nations, out of fear that the malware would spread beyond Ukraine’s borders, crippling the military alliance or hitting West European banks.

After years of discussions in Washington and in tech circles about the need for public-private partnerships to combat destructive cyberattacks, the war in Ukraine is stress-testing the system. The White House, armed with intelligence from the National Security Agency and United States Cyber Command, is overseeing classified briefings on Russia’s cyberoffensive plans. Even if American intelligence agencies picked up on the kind of crippling cyberattacks that someone — presumably Russian intelligence agencies or hackers — threw at Ukraine’s government, they do not have the infrastructure to move that fast to block them.

The Russians are not going to make a go to war with NATO/don’t go to war with NATO decision based on the technicalities. They’ll (or Putin will) do it based on the perception that they are under threat by NATO.

Putin could decide to widen the war solely because of Western materiel support. It’s entirely possible. He despises, fears, and distrusts NATO. He isn’t going to NOT fight them over a legality.

If that happens, the likelihood of the war remaining conventional is not good. I think it clear from what we’ve seen of Russian military skill so far that NATO could devastate them (espcially since so much of their forces are extended into Ukraine.) I struggle to believe Putin would just accept defeat.

I wonder if Putin understands how badly he stepped in it when he started threatening to use nukes. It’s been an education watching the Russian economy get ripped to shreds in a matter of days.

I am terrified that Putin has no way to back out without losing face. So he won’t.

He may need the equipment to handle uprisings at home.

Clear and direct NATO or US involvement could reinvigorate what appears to be totally devastated Russian morale (in addition to risking a nuclear exchange). Sure, we’d win eventually, but the casualties could be orders of magnitude greater than what they are now or even will be after this conflict without us.

So it seems inevitable, as a practical matter, that Russia is going to take over militarily. How likely is it that Russia/Putin will be able to wait out international outrage once that happens? Or has their economy and reputation taken such a huge blow already that it would take too long for businesses and nations to decide they like having Russia’s money and resources more than not having it? I assume this was the original plan, but it isn’t feasible anymore, is it? It seems like things have gone too far beyond that.

I think you’re correct that things have gone far beyond what Putin predicted in terms of international outrage and actual sanctions with teeth.

Also, although the Russian army will certainly take the major Ukraine cities soon, I think that they will not be able to do so without a great deal of civilian casualties and destruction of homes. They will not be able to do this in secret. It will be filmed.
They are then going to have to deal with an insurgency that will not let them leave if they think they’ll install a puppet government and just go home.
If they stay, Russian soldiers are going to be heading home in bags daily.

Too late to edit, but I wonder if Putin is considering trying to hold out for two years, putting what he can into getting Trump reelected, and having him lift sanctions? It might be his best shot at this point?

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