Seeking an Insight into the Female Mind (A Dating Situation)

In My Humble Opinion
1

I think this is the right forum to solicit dating advice. If it’s not, I apologize preemptively to Czarcasm and Veb.

So last Friday I went out on my third date with this girl; let’s call her A. Both our previous dates occurred before we went to our respective homes for the holidays; we’d kept in touch in the interim and this would be the first time we’d seen each other since, say, mid-December. Now, I’m ridiculously overanalytical and utterly dense about relationships, especially when they’re in the formative stages. I stress over everything…just ask Maeglin or Pucette, who a couple of years ago had to be my sounding boards more times, probably, than they’d care to count. One of my weaknesses in the dating game is an almost total lack of guile; I tend to be very straightforward when I like someone, and I’m not very good at playing coy or hard-to-get. Neither am I especially ept about reading someone else’s signals. But this seemed to be going pretty well…we’d kissed a little at the end of the second date, and she’d called me up randomly over Christmas break, just to chat. In short, it seemed that the interest was mutual. She’s tremendously intelligent, witty, very attractive, and to all appearances genuine and sweet.

The only somewhat worrisome note is that A has a habit, sometimes, of not responding to e-mails or phone calls in a timely manner. For instance, we’d talked before break about maybe getting together for New Year’s Eve, assuming we were both in town. She e-mailed me around the 27th of December saying that she’d be back in town on the 30th; I e-mailed back asking whether she had plans for New Year’s. I didn’t hear back from her until she gave me a call on January 1st to ask if I wanted to do something the following night (due to a snafu, we weren’t able to). I’m pretty sure by this point that her not writing or calling back as soon as most people would doesn’t mean she’s not interested, but it’s still something for me to have to keep in mind, and it has some bearing on the advice I’m asking y’all for. :slight_smile:

Anyway. For our third date, A and I went to a concert. Due to various work-related issues, we weren’t able to grab something to eat beforehand; instead, I came by her apartment (first time I’d been there), bringing her a bottle of wine, and we walked from there. A had had a couple of drinks with her boss after work and was feeling tired, but we had a great time talking while waiting for the show to begin. Again, she definitely seemed to be returning my interest. The concert itself ended up being a little too loud for the both of us, and we left about an hour into it, around 11 pm. We went back to her apartment and hung out for a little while. There was kissing; it was nice. She was getting sleepier and sleepier, though, and I offered to call it a night and let her get some rest. She agreed, but then asked if I wanted to come over Sunday night – that is, tonight. She said that we could drink the wine that I’d brought, and she’d make dinner. I said that sounded great. She seemed 95 percent sure that we’d be getting together; I asked her if she wouldn’t rather take the whole weekend to relax, as she’d expressed to me earlier, but she said that by Sunday evening she’d be fine…she just had to go grocery shopping Sunday afternoon. She set a tentative time of 7 pm, but said that it might be 6 pm depending on whether she was supposed to get together with some girlfriends of hers later that night. She told me she’d give me a call on Saturday and let me know the time.

She didn’t call Saturday, but this wasn’t a big deal; I figured we’d touch base today. So this afternoon around 1 pm I gave her a call on her cell phone. She wasn’t there, so I left her a message asking whether we were still up for dinner and seeing what time she wanted to get together. Didn’t hear back. Around 5 pm I called her landline, but she didn’t pick up. I was hanging out with a friend playing Scrabble at the time, so I didn’t leave a message; I basically just shrugged to myself and figured that if she called, she called. She didn’t. I still haven’t heard anything from her.

So, the advice portion of this post. First, does this sound weird to anyone? I mean, dinner was her suggestion, and she was pretty definite about it. On the other hand, at the time she offered she was really sleepy and probably a little tipsy. Still, given that I’d left her a message earlier today, you’d think that she’d call to tell me she wasn’t up for it or didn’t feel like it or whatever. No skin off my nose; the third date went well enough that I figure I’m gonna see her again…I wouldn’t take a cancellation tonight as being a blow-off. Any takes on why I never heard from her about it, and whether or not it’s a bad sign regarding the nascent relationship in general? Second, how should I approach it from here? I mean, I’ll wait to hear from her again, but is it okay to let her know that I wished she’d call me to tell me dinner wasn’t going to happen? Basically, is it okay to be a little annoyed, or would I be overreacting? What should I do about it? I do like her and I look forward to seeing her again, but I don’t want her to feel like she can walk all over me. I tend to try to be considerate to others, so it’s important to me that they’re considerate in return.

What say the Teeming Millions? :slight_smile:

2

Oog! I’ve been there. I mean, almost exactly down to having an actual time to go and pick her up at her place and everything (then she wasn’t there). Confused the Og-lovin’ crap outta me. Eventually I told myself, “Okay, Cryaons. She’s a little interested, but not enough for her to think you’re worthwhile.”

So, with a tear in my eye, I decided to look for other fish in the sea.

The I found out that she was SO TOTALLY interested, but had a memory like a sieve and plum forgot. :dubious: I’d practically broken her heart.

To this day I’m still confused about it all.

3

Are there any indications that she’s seeing someone else, even casually? I’m a woman, and (sorry if it sounds cold or anything) but it sounds to me like maybe she’s keeping you up in the air in case some other plans don’t work out. The blowing off New Year’s Eve sounds real fishy to me.
There’s a book out called something like “He’s Just Not That Into You”… the author states that no matter how busy someone is, or how stressful their lives are, if they really like you they do call. It doesn’t take that long to pick up a phone.
As for her blowing you off for tonight, I’d say it’s something to be annoyed about. I, myself, would take it as a big flashing neon sign, and I’d move on. I wouldn’t call, and if the other party did call me, I’d be somewhat cold. It doesn’t mean the burgeoning relationship would be over, but he would have to really work at regaining my trust after that. The very beginning of a relationship is the time when you’re supposed to be really nice to each other- if she’s treating you like this now, how’s she gonna treat you later? Just sayin.

4

I usually avoid speculating in threads like this, but what the heck: to me, it sounds like she is very interested in you but is just a little inconsiderate in general (I would say “ditzy,” but you describe her as intelligent and witty). I would say that her not calling about tonight’s dinner is not a reflection on how much she likes you, but rather is behaviour that is typical of her. You don’t mention whether she ever apologized or otherwise explained about the New Year’s Eve plans thing, but I get the feeling she probably didn’t. Because she probably doesn’t think she did anything wrong. I’m not saying she was wrong, just that different people expect different levels of consideration: you’ll need to decide whether you like her enough to put up with this “quirk.” :slight_smile:

(FTR, I’m a painfully considerate female who recognized myself in the following: “One of my weaknesses in the dating game is an almost total lack of guile; I tend to be very straightforward when I like someone, and I’m not very good at playing coy or hard-to-get. Neither am I especially ept about reading someone else’s signals.” In fact, I’ve never been able to put it that clearly or succinctly . . . and I’m (hopefully) about to start seeing someone . . . hmm, mind if I borrow your words? :D)

5

Personally I’d just put the ball in her court. Give her a call this week, ask her out again or leave her a message and leave it at that. If she blows you off again, or just doesn’t respond to your message than you can take that as a sign. I’d say she’s really flakey or she is leading you on. Either way, give her the option to hang out with you, and if she doesn’t jump on it…meh.

6

Here are some very important things to look for when trying to figure out if a woman likes you:

Body language. When I with someone I’m into, I’m affectionate. There’s holding hands, putting my arm around them, rubbing their thigh, kisses on the cheek or around the ear, etc. My body is warm and flexible. If it’s someone I’m not sure about or I’m leaning towards dumping, I become stiff. There’s no gratuitous bodily contact. I sit with my arms and legs folded. If he unexpectedly leans in to kiss me, I pull back. If he comes up behind my and touches my waist, I flinch. I don’t mean to do these things, but I’ve noticed that I do them.
References to future dates. I just went on a first date last night, and I can be pretty sure he wants to see me again because for one thing, he was telling me about a restaurant he had gone to and said he would have to take me there. I know if I’m with someone who I know is not long for my world, I certainly wouldn’t say anything about our future together.
Was there any of this, or other little signs? If you’re an overanalyzer like me, you have to have noticed something indicating her true feelings?

It is true that some people are just naturally thoughtless and forgetful, and it has nothing to do with you. It’s true that if you continue to date her and she starts to really like you, that this is something you won’t have to worry about anymore. But there’s also a good chance that a few months from now you’ll be pitting your girlfriend because she’s thoughtless and forgetful. You have to decide if her good qualities outweigh her bad. If they do, then hang on. If they don’t, then let her go.

7

Awesome responses so far. Thanks, everybody. I’ll address the posts one by one.

Eats_Crayons: Y’know, the fact that you’ve been in a similar situation makes me feel better, and I really appreciate you sharing that. I mean, obviously I’m sorry that there ended up being crossed wires with you and that girl, but it’s nice to know that I’m not the only person this kind of stuff can happen to (as it sometimes seems).

I’ve gotten this sense from her. It doesn’t necessarily excuse tonight, because she presumably got my message, but yeah, that could definitely be a part of it.

trublmakr:

I don’t know if she’s seeing anyone else; it’s certainly possible. She’s got a really active social life and a large circle of friends (which might play a part, I think, in her being a little scatterbrained with social stuff, if she’s always got something going on). It could be that she’s keeping me up in the air, but that doesn’t completely jibe with her being the one to suggest dinner tonight, and on fairly short notice. I can only assume that she wanted to do it when she suggested it; even when she realized she might have to meet girlfriends later in the evening, she still wanted to keep the date. I wouldn’t have minded at all if she’d reconsidered and said, “Y’know what? We should do this another night; I probably won’t have time on Sunday, come to think of it.” But she’s the one who initiated the plan.

And the New Year’s Eve thing wasn’t that big a deal in retrospect, although I stressed about it at the time. It was more the not returning the e-mail…that’s kind of a big thing with me. New Year’s Eve itself was only a barely tentative plan, and it’s not necessarily the kind of thing you do with someone you’ve only just started seeing.

Yeah, I totally agree with this. I think there can be exceptions, but clearly it’s not a great sign of their interest if they don’t call you. The thing with her, though, is that she does tend to call…and oftentimes it’s long enough after the last time I’ve contacted her that it is, in effect, her calling on her own initiative, if that makes sense. If she doesn’t feel the compulsion to return calls promptly, as she seems not to, and if she’s not that into me, then there’s no reason for her to end up calling at all. And I dunno…but when I’m with her she definitely appears to be interested (more on that below in response to your post about body language). I’ve been more inclined to think that her life is so busy that, though she likes me, she’s got too much going on to give me too much priority. The thing today might force me to change my mind on that, since it’s tough to reconcile her saying “let me make you dinner on Sunday” with not hearing from her at all, but we’ll see.

Great point. Which is why I have an impulse to talk to her about this…is that a good idea or a bad idea? I’d basically just want to say, “look, I really like you and it seems like you like me, but you’re sending mixed signals when it seems like you’re blowing me off, and I need to know whether you’re going to keep doing it and, if so, what it means.”

More in my next post.

8

Misnomer: It sounds like you and I are very similar. :slight_smile:

I think you’re probably right. That is, I hope she’s very interested – she’s given a number of indications that she is – and it does seem as though she tends to be bad about these kinds of things.

Yeah, she didn’t apologize; good call on that one. :slight_smile: My trouble is that I’m often overconsiderate – “painfully considerate” is remarkably apt, in fact. I don’t quite verge on the undesirable type of Nice GuyTM that was recently Pitted, but for some reason I do think it’s easy for people…I don’t want to say “to take advantage of me,” but maybe to overlook my feelings, because they get the sense I’m going to be nice to them regardless. And you’re exactly right that I need to decide how much I like her. At the moment, the lack of communication today notwithstanding, I think I like her a lot. But not so much that I’m going to go chasing after her willy-nilly disregarding her disregard. I’m definitely in wait-and-see mode. She did apologize following the snafu I referenced in the OP, where we didn’t end up meeting up as a result of crossed wires that were probably more her fault than mine. Of course, we were supposed to get together on Sunday, and I didn’t hear from her again until Wednesday, at which point she called, apologized, and we had a really nice chat.

You’re more than welcome to, and thanks for the compliment! Like I said to Eating_Crayons, it’s really nice to know that other people out there are a little like me. I wish you the best of luck in the (hopefully) starting to see someone. Feel free to drop me an e-mail if you need a like-minded perspective or need to vent about something that only someone else who’s painfully considerate could understand. :slight_smile:

9

The Cat:

Yeah, I might shoot her an e-mail tomorrow or the next day asking if she wants to take a raincheck on the dinner; that’s one of the reasons I was asking y’all if it’s a bad thing if I express a little annoyance. I’m not angry with her, but I definitely don’t want this to become a habit. I’d honestly be very surprised if she doesn’t respond at some point…there’s every indication of some level of interest (today, again, notwithstanding), and she’s got a book of mine. :slight_smile: I’ve met (and gone out with) people who, whatever their redeeming qualities, seemed like the kind of people that could fuck with someone just for the sake of doing so, or that didn’t particularly care about the feelings of others. I honestly don’t get that sense from her. Which is why not following through on her own consarn invitation puzzles me so mightily…

10

An email to her is the perfect way to go. You don’t want to keep calling her and look like a stalker. I’d express my concern for her safety, “Are you ok? I know you aren’t the type to just blow me off and you HAD invited me for dinner” or something to that effect.

11

trublmakr:

I’m a very affectionate person. The main reason I felt comfortable going to kiss her at the end of the second date was her body language throughout the course of that evening. I was a little nervous that the three-week layoff between dates would leave us awkward in that respect when we went out on Friday, and it did for the first part of the evening…when I met her at her door, for instance, we kind of hugged stiltedly and that was it. But there was a point in the evening where she noticeably relaxed and became more physically affectionate, putting (and keeping) her hand on me knee, leaning against me, putting her head on my shoulder. Just brushing against each other comfortably. And of course, she certainly seemed to enjoy cuddling up on her couch when we returned from the concert.

Were there any references to future dates? You mean, besides her saying, “You should come over Sunday night and I’ll make us dinner?” :wink: Yeah, there were other references to wanting to see me again…that was the most immediate one, though.

Like Misnomer, you make a really good point. Right now, the good qualities do outweigh the bad. Assuming I hear from her again. She really doesn’t have many bad qualities; this is the big one, and maybe the only real one I’ve seen so far.

But you know how people are…we’re insecure. And while I have a great deal of confidence in myself and think I’m both a great person and a great catch, rejection (even seeming rejection) really hurts and can make you question yourself. I have a narrow enough range of women that I click with that it’s always pretty painful if it turns out that they don’t feel the same, or enough of the same. I don’t know that that’s the case here, and we seem to get along great (you know, when I hear from her) but the uncertainty itself kinda sucks.

12

trublmaker:

That’s well-phrased. I hope you don’t mind if I steal it.

13

I agree it’s probably just ditziness. And I think it’s worth talking with her about, but not to make a federal case out of it. More like, explain that you’re the type of person who likes to confirm whether plans are still on, and when you can’t contact the other person it makes you feel the other person may not think the plans are that important. Especially when the other person has said she’d call you, etc.

14

I think I’m going to go against the grain here.

Sounds to me like quite an issue, and I think you’re being a bit of a wimp about it (sorry).

From what I can tell, she basically asked you over for dinner and then blew you off. I don’t get a whole lot of ambiguity about the fact that you would, in fact, be getting together on Sunday night from your post.

I have no idea what happened, but anything short of an email from her apologizing profusely and giving a plausible excuse should not be acceptable to you. Were I you, I certainly would not be mad, angry or confrontational after only three dates; I would simply not be interested in pursuing anything further. It doesn’t seem to me like a slight hiccup in a budding relationship, it sounds like complete disregard for plans and your time…and you don’t see that.

So, my advice would be to move on. If she emails or contacts you, fine - judge for yourself if her apology/explanation works for you and go from there. But don’t be a doormat and don’t make excuses for other people’s rudeness.

15

I think she is either keeping you in an extended probation period… or she has mixed feeling with some other guy and hasn’t made up her mind… or she is very absent minded.

16

Ahh, I miss you, you bugger!

PS I’m voting for ditz, and frustrating as ditz can be, if all it is is ditz, the rest will hopefully be enough to carry you through.

17

I don’t agree with this. A person could have any number of reasons for mentioning future plans with no intention of following through. They might find it flattering that you’re getting excited about seeing them again. They might like the way your face lights up when you talk about things you’ll do together in the future. They know all they have to do to keep you doting on them like a puppy is keep hope alive that there’s something special between you. It’s an ego boost for them.

I have to agree with Sat on Cookie. If I were you, Gadarene, I’d accept that “She’s Just Not That Into Me” and not call her again.

18

I agree. And you know what, this thread makes me feel old. And I’m only 26 for Og’s sake…that’s not fair!

Because when I hear the OP, I’m thinking…you know, she might be cute, but will she remember to pick up the muchkin from daycare on the way home, or forget to drop off the dry cleaning, even though it’s on her way, and she knows i need those slacks for the presentation I’m making tomorrow…arg. She probably leaves the cap off the toothpaste and never puts the mayo back in the fridge…

Sorry. I just wonder what your final ‘goal’ is with this chick. Is it to bed her? I imagine you can put up with all sorts of bad habits if you want her bad enough. But if we’re at all talking long term…a basic lack of consideration (no matter how cute she is while doing it) gets old real fast. Not being able to count on someone for trivial things is not a good indication of how they’ll perform for the big ones.

19

“She’s tremendously intelligent, witty, very attractive, and to all appearances genuine and sweet.”

Without wanting to sound unkind, sounds like she is not really all of these things, unless you want to stress the two words ‘attractive’ and ‘appearances’, the latter word you added because you weren’t sure about her being genuine and sweet herself.

I’d wait, let her make the next move, if she ever does, and if she does invite you over and she shows up, see if she apologises and look for signs for either complete mental chaos or signs that she’s dating more than one guy (either way, it may help to just ask these things). If she doesn’t show up again, I’d say you’re a lot better off looking for someone else and find someone whom you can describe without the ‘to all appearances’ qualifier.

They do exist. :wink:

20

ratatoskK:

This is sound advice. Thanks for it. Of course, it puts me in the familiar position of being the one person, in any given dyad, whose feelings about the matter are transparent, but there’s not much I can do about that. Should the opportunity arise, I’ll let her know how I feel about it.

Sat on Cookie:

No apologies necessary. :slight_smile: Do you mean I’m being a wimp not to be more annoyed about it, or that I’m being a wimp because I don’t automatically see it as reason to have nothing more to do with her?

Right. And I probably give people the benefit of the doubt a little too much; absent definitive evidence, I don’t like to assume that anyone’s acting maliciously or manipulatively…which she, essentially, would have to be doing to propose a dinner and then blow me off about it in such a short time frame. There are other reasonable explanations than malice…other posters have proposed some of them. And if she’s not being a jerk, but is genuinely absent-minded or accidentally inconsiderate or whatever, then it seems like an overreaction on my part to shut her down cold. Kinda like what Eats_Crayons was saying.

I’m certainly wary now, of course, and I’ll press her for an explanation if and when I talk to her next.

It could be both, if the disregard was less than intentional. But yeah, maybe I’m splitting hairs and just don’t want to see that she doesn’t really give a shit.

Rashak mani:

All viable options. Only the last one really explains her going out of her way to invite me to dinner, though, doesn’t it? That’s the part I can’t really get past. If it was just her taking ridiculously long to call me back again, I’d either take it as a hint that she’s not all that interested or learn to deal with it. But to be the one who suggests that we get together, and only two days after our previous date, doesn’t really jibe with extended probation or her keeping me around in case another guy doesn’t work out. I don’t think.

Pucette:

I miss you, too. :slight_smile: And I hope you’re right.
cuauhtemoc:

Very true. But a) I genuinely don’t get that sense from her (I could obviously be wrong, of course), and b) that still doesn’t explain her taking the initiative to invite me over for dinner on Sunday when we’ve just been out on Friday. Or at least, it ascribes a degree of sadism which, as I’ve said, I’m hesitate to attribute to people. Especially people I like.

I’ll see what happens. If I hear from her, I’ll definitely raise the issue. If I don’t, I’ll drop her an e-mail later this week and, if nothing comes of that, chalk it up as a nothing-to-be-done and move on. Too bad, though. It’s tough finding people I seem to click with.