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I wouldn’t like it personally.
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I think it is a relatively normal kink.
[ul][li]Adultery is a sin (I am Christian). []Adultery correlates with divorce and other kinds of relationship breakups (sorry, no cites), and divorce is disadvantageous to the children of the relationship. Divorce tends to make people unhappier in the short run, and has no positive effect on happiness in the long run - i.e., you will often be miserable after divorce, and no happier (by and large) than you would have been if the marriage survived[]From an evolutionary standpoint, males are hard-wired to want to propagate their own genes at the expense of everyone else’s, and thus a premium has been created on female fidelity. A woman’s strategy is more to get a male to commit to supporting her in raising her children. Watching a spouse mate with another person thus violates both these strategies. (We are still subject to these impulses, regardless of our current situation - we spent a lot longer as hunter-gatherers than we have in a technological society, and thus our emotional reactions tend more to the H-G way of things than cooly rational decisions on single parenting.)[/ul][/li]If you are really interested.
Regards,
Shodan
Then try really hard to find a point of view outside your own.
I’m neither Puritanical, homophobic or sexist.
To lob those labels at someone who doesn’t want to see his wife fucked by another man is at best obtuse. But really, I just think you’re being disingenuous.
To address your claims of sexism and homophobia respectively, I wouldn’t want my wife to see me with another woman. And, I wouldn’t want to see my wife with another woman.
Is that something that I would have dug when I was dating some wild chicks during my twenties. . .much more so.
You don’t need to have Puritanical hang-ups to believe that monogamy is a good foundation for a relationship. That sex (while it can still be animalistic, fun, rough, kinky, etc) still involves a type of emotional bond that nothing else you can do with another person does.
That’s why I drew a distinction between this act and other “kinks”.
Are you married?
To answer the original question:
My SO talks about this when we have sex and how he wants to see me with another guy and goes into graphic detail. However, we’ve never done it, and I’ve told him outside of the bedroom that it’s not going to happen. I’m fine with talking dirty and sharing fantasies, but every experience I’ve ever had with inviting others into a relationship has turned out to be bad.
ETA: And I don’t find it weird. I prefer he share his fantasies with me, it keeps things fresh.
I may not have the “right” to dictate my SO’s behavior, but I do have the right to dictate what behavior will cause me to end the relationship.
I’m not interested in being in a relationship with someone who does X, Y, or Z. If you do X, Y or Z, good luck to you, but I won’t be in a relationship with you. If I’m already in a relationship with you and you start doing X, Y or Z, then I’ll leave. You have to choose which is more important, our relationship, or X, Y and Z. You can’t have both.
How is that unreasonable?
As for the scenario proposed by the OP, I wouldn’t be interested.
And while I wouldn’t label you “sick”, it seems to me that acting out such a scenario is likely to cause all sorts of problems. What if she gets pregnant? What if she gets and STD? What if she likes the other guy better than you? What if she hates it but does it because you demand it? What do you think you get out of it…sure, you find it hot, but why do you find it hot? This isn’t guaranteed to break up your marriage, but it’s something that really could do that. Do you think you have a realistic understanding of the emotional risks involved, or are you in denial about the risks? Out of the three people involved, how many of them are kidding themselves about what’s really happening, and how many have their eyes open?
Most people who value conventional monogamy feel the same way. It’s called being jealous. Those who don’t get jealous are less likely to be bothered by their mates fooling around with others. Coincidentally, they are also less likely to practice conventional monogamy. This is why I say the jealousy thing is a key factor.
No, you don’t have to have Puritanical hangups to believe this. Where you get into Puritanical territory is where you opine that asking your wife to have sex with someone else is akin to degrading her with bodily wastes. Sounds like something that a sexually repressed matron in the 1950s would say while lecturing on the evils of non-missionary style sex. Hearing anyone declare that porn is about degradation in absolute terms also gives me that impression. Makes me feel like I stepped in a time warp.
No, I’ve been in long-term relationships, though. And for the record, I don’t think I could enjoy watching my bf/husband get it on with someone else. Because I would feel jealous and a little insecure. Nothing deeper than that.
What the hell is normal when it comes to sexual shenanigans? What’s the baseline?
** Shodan - **
I am absolutely interested. I apologize if my post came off like I was trying to play “gotcha.” I’m not at all. I’d like to address your three bullets individually.
I am not a Christian (well, not in any meaningful sense of the word, although I was raised Catholic and still retain certain loosely connected religious beliefs), but of course I don’t have to be a Christian to believe that adultery is a moral wrong. But perhaps there is a relevant difference here - our respective definitions of adultery.
To me, adultery is, in the simplest sense, whatever the participants in the marriage say it is. There are constant debates concerning “whether X constitutes cheating,” and I rarely participate because I don’t see a point: to me, if you and your partner think it’s cheating, than it is, and if you and your partner think it’s not, it’s not. If Bob and Ellen Smith agree that neither of them will ever sleep with anyone else, and Ellen goes and sleeps with Kevin Parker, she has committed adultery. But if Harold and Vicky Davis agree that sexual intercourse is not part of their definition of what constitutes “cheating,” and Vicky sleeps with Kevin, then she has NOT committed adultery. No covenant has been broken, because sexual fidelity was not part of the covenant in the first place. One cannot break a vow that one has never made.
I don’t really think you need a cite for “adultery correlates with divorce;” that one seems pretty self-evident. But there are two responses here. One is simply a restatement of my answer to bullet point #1 - adultery correlates with divorce because of the betrayal involved, not because of the mechanics. If my wife cheats on me, our marriage would be damaged not specifically because some dude put Tab A into Slot B, but because she made an important promise to me and then broke it (and most likely lied about it). That damages my ability to trust her, which hurts our ability to act as equal partners. Again, if there is no expectation of sexual fidelity, then this doesn’t apply.
But lay that aside for a moment. The argument you make in bullet point 2 would still be a compelling argument only against DOING this - not an argument that fantasizing about it is inherently sick and wrong. If Harold gets turned on by the thought of Vicky with Kevin, but his fantasy stays in the realm of fantasy, then why is his fantasy, in and of itself, sick/wrong/disgusting?
My own life experiences do not support this observation in practice. I’m not sure there’s much way to debate this, unfortunately, since I can’t prove my experiential opinion and you can’t prove yours. I think that even if men, as a broad category, are inclined in one direction and women, as a broad category, are inclined in another, there is enough individual variation that to try to use those broad categorizations to comment or analyze any given relationship is an exercise in futility.
You’re making it sound like this is some horrible thing you’re doing to her and any woman who would allow that kind of behavior has problems of her own. If she’s okay with it, then why not? A lot of women like so-called degrading activity because they think it’s fun or what not. GomiBoy mentioned a girl who used it to work through her own abuse–I personally wasn’t abused or anything as a child, but I still find power/degradation to be a turn on.
In my own experience, the SO I had who liked it wasn’t really interested in actually getting me to have sex with other guys (that would have triggered real jealousy), but hearing about it/fantasizing about it was completely different. As long as you’re not forcing the person to do stuff they don’t want to do, it’s okay in my book.
Is a man being degraded if he and his SO have a threesome because he’s being forced to, gasp, do stuff with a woman who’s not his girlfriend?
Yeah, he really showed me.
She asked him to call her a slut during sex because she was empowering herself.
People here at the dope have such fucked up notions of self-esteem that he probably almost believed that.
Who said anything about empowering? She used it to possibly work through her own issues, and she got off on it. If something arouses you, it feels good, and it isn’t hurting anyone, who cares why you’re doing it?
He has to judge, it’s his duty. He was elected Judge of the World and it would be irresponsible of him to fall down on the job.
I think that Trunk believes that it is flatly impossible that a woman could actually *enjoy *having intimate relations with a man who is not her husband. No way, no how. Thus, your scenario would not apply - it couldn’t possibly “feel good” to the woman to do this, so a man who wants her to do it obviously wants her to feel bad.
Ok, I’ll reword it. . .
Yeah, he really showed me.
She asked him to call her a slut during sex because she was working through her own issues.
People here at the dope have such fucked up notions of self-esteem that he probably almost believed that.
Quick hijack since no one has commented on this…
Is this act commonly seen as ‘extreme’ or degrading? I had the impression that it was faily common and closer to vanilla than rocky road on the scale of sexual behaviors.
You’re not married either, are you?
Up is fucking down here, somedays.
A chick who like having her faced jizzed on and being called a slut has no self esteem issues whatsoever. Just a good ole well-adjusted girl, like mom, getting rid of the frustrations of the day with a little cum-based face paint. Probably bakes ol’ soryteller an apple pie when they’re done.
So, I’m just going to ask her to do it, even though she clearly has a history of abuse, abandonment issues. . .no possible ethical conflict there.
“Oh, and after you wipe that off your chin, would you fuck this dude I met at the truck stop, so I can jerk off again?”
In my book, to eject bodily fluids onto a woman’s face is degrading. YMMV.
Semen on the face is a wicked, wicked thing. It’s up there with kissing with your mouth open and having sex with the lights on. I feel dirty just thinking about it.
I never thought it was all that bad. On the face is a little oogy for me because I don’t like things getting in my eye…but I’ve had the proverbial pearl necklace. (Actually, I guess I was expecting things to gush out, whereas it was more of a slow leak.)
Trunk, I think a lot more people than you know enjoy that kind of thing. (Not necessarily being ejaculated on, but general power play…spanking, being told you’re “a bad girl,” etc.) It’s pretty low key stuff. I don’t think it necessarily means you’re fucked up. Or if it does mean you’re a freak, it’s one of those times it’s yeah, you’re a freak, but who cares (as Dan Savage might put it).
What the heck are you talking about? I made no mention of anyone wanting to be called a slut or have anything squirted in her face. You seem to be a bit obsessed with those things, because you keep on mentioning them; that’s curious, to me, given that you think them so horrific. I personally have no interest in ejaculating on anyone’s face, which is one of the reasons I don’t keep talking about it.
Point the First - I said: It is possible for a woman to enjoy physical intimacy with a man who is not her husband. This is a possible thing. Do you disagree with that statement? If you do, then that’s a pretty naive opinion. If you don’t, then why would you compare it with something most women would not enjoy (like urine in the eye)?
Point the Second - I am married, have been for pushing on a decade now, have no intention of breaking up. My wife loves me and we have a fairly interesting sex life. I certainly don’t need porn “for fantasizing about the things I can’t do with my wife.” However, I’m not stupid or self-absorbed enough to think that there are no men other than me with whom she could have sex and enjoy it. I’m certainly not stupid enough to think that she would consider french kissing the attractive gym teacher at her school to be functionally equivalent to having someone pee on her face. If you consider those things equivalent, I can’t grasp the why of it.