I have no fucking idea how you got the notion that I think my wife wouldn’t enjoy sex with another man.
She would, except for the added psychological issue that she’s cheating on me.
And, that has nothing to do with the idea of me asking her to fuck another guy so I can watch.
Then, you at least partially agree with me. Your answer to part B of the OP is, "no, it’s not normal. It means you’re a freak.
OK, you with the face. . .you’ve established it. . .you like getting jizzed on and dig the idea of fucking another dude with another dude watching. Bully. That doesn’t mean the rest of us draw the line at missionary style with the lights off.
I was beginning to wonder if I had become of those weirdos from Savage Love, if I was the only person here who thought a ‘pearl necklace’ was pretty tame in the scheme of things.
Nah, this stuff (jizzing all over, watching your partner do it with someone else) is really really vanilla to me.
I think my freakishness line gets drawn when it comes to bodily fluids. (Which is still okay as long as I’m not involved, it’s just too freaky for me.) You draw your line way earlier than me, or so it seems.
Except in the example about which we’re talking, she’s not “cheating on you,” because you’re happy about it. There is no “psychological issue.” If Bob’s girlfriend thinks Troy is attractive, and Bob thinks the idea of his girlfriend getting together with Troy is exciting, and they discuss this, and realize that: (1) Girlfriend can enjoy guilt-free fooling around with a guy to whom she’s attractive; (2) Bob can enjoy watching; and, presumably (3) Troy can enjoy guilt-free fooling around with a girl that (presumably) he finds attractive -
Where is the “violation?” You described it as such earlier in this thread. Who is being violated in that scenario? Girlfriend? But she will enjoy fooling around with Troy, and enjoy pleasing her boyfriend in an unconventional way. Who is violated? Who is having an experience that is degrading and controlled?
Now, believe me, I get that it’s not for everyone. It doesn’t have to be. But to me, the things that are “sick” and “disgusting” are the things that hurt someone. If someone involved is going to be hurt, or humiliated, or deceived, or does somethign that they don’t want to do - well now, that’s bad, mmkay? But no one in paragraph one, above, is getting hurt or humiliated or deceived or is doing anything they don’t enjoy.
Lighten up, Francis. Nobody cares about what you do in bed. I’m just making fun of the idea that enjoying cum shots to the face is an extreme that might actually get your morality and self-esteem questioned on a so-called liberal message board.
Question for the OP: Would a foursome scenario, where there are two couples who switch partners, have the same appeal? Or is the fact that you are passively watching, rather than participating, a fundamental part of it?
Not a problem. You didn’t sound particularly snarky - that’s why I responded.
I would go a step further and say that some things (namely, sex) are adultery even if both parties agree. Thus, adultery is wrong even in an “open marriage”.
In my view, it does, either [ul][li]because “adultery is wrong” is a natural law set by God, or []because we are hard-wired thru years of evolution to respond emotionally to threats to the genetic integrity (so to speak) of our offspring []or both reasons, for that matter. Maybe they are even the same reason.[/ul] So men would/should respond to the sight of another man impregnating (potentially) their mate and thus not feel drawn to enabling the cuckoo strategy of reproduction, and women would respond badly to anything that threatened the stability of the pair-bond and made it more likely that no adult male would be available to support her children. [/li]
For much the same reasons as already stated - because sinful thoughts are wrong in much the same way that sinful actions are - see Matthew 5:27-28 - and because the desire to see one partner be non-monogamous is a maladaptive mindset (in evolutionary terms). So thinking about it is bad because it raises the tendency to actually do it, according to social biology.
Any given relationship? Maybe not. In general? Sure, I think so.
YMMV, but a hundred or a thousand other couples’ probably wouldn’t.
Well, on this we’re probably going to have to agree to disagree. To me, “adultery” as a term has to vary from marriage to marriage - and also, remember, the OP is an unmarried person speaking of his girlfriend; they’ve made no vows, religious or otherwise. How does that fit in? If, to you, a married person having intimate relations with a person not in his/her marriage is “adultery” regardless of the opinions of the folks in the marriage, I can respect your opinion but not, ultimately, understand it.
I should state for the record that I am a doofus medical writer, not an expert on genetics, evolution, or really anything at all other than clinical study protocols, contemporary musical theatre, and Italian swear words. But still, the above seems to me like an oversimplification. The fact that a substantial number of men - and it’s very substantial - do have an erotic interest in this sort of thing suggests to me that perhaps there may be some sort of evolutionary basis to the interest - although what that might be, I can’t speculate.
I do have one odd little question, though. Suppose we took intercourse out of the equation altogether. Suppose we had a hypothetical man who was turned on by thought of his wife kissing - just kissing, and on the lips only - another man. Would you still object to that on an evolutionary basis, as it were, or only on a religious basis?
With regard to the religious aspect, once again, we’re just not ever going to agree on the point you’ve made above. When it comes to God, I find / I can’t believe that he designed / A human being with a mind / He’s not supposed to use, and all that.
As to the latter half, well, fair enough. I might even concede that this particular fantasy appears to be maladaptive from an evolutionary standpoint. But so what? I have never been appointed Grand Supervisor of Evolution; I’m pretty sure it will proceed without my assistance or concern. If Bob’s behavior is genetically maladaptive, but not harmful to me or harmful to society, what do I care?
In fact, from a certain standpoint, oughtn’t I to be *glad * of and encourage behaviors in other men that would limit their genetic productivity? After all, it increases the chances of my own genes getting a leg up, as it were.
That last is obviously meant tongue in cheek, but more seriously: even if it is maladaptive, so what? From where I sit, and without regard to religion, why should I care?
But the trouble is that I suspect that in a lot of such cases, the feeling of degredation and control is what makes the scenario attractive to one or more of the participants. And I also suspect that people often agree to these scenarios not because they think they’ll enjoy it, but because they have no other choice. And I also believe that people lie to each other and lie to themselves about what they really want, especially in really fraught sexual situations like this.
That said, I can’t stop anybody from doing anything, I can’t stop people with issues from making bad choices, I can’t tell them not to do it, and I can’t know what people really think. I’ve seen plenty of people who say something like, “I agreed to that scenario but I really didn’t want to, I just pretended to enjoy it.” And of course, the lie could be that they really did want to do it, they just didn’t want to admit to themselves that they didn’t want to, and are more comfortable blaming someone else for “forcing” them to do it.
I’m just saying the scenario where everybody communicates and everybody agrees and everybody does it because they want to do it and everybody is in touch with their emotions, probably isn’t nearly as common as the scenario where one or more people lie and they deny and they pretend, to themselves and others. Not that this is limited to three-ways, of course.
Shodan - I hope I didn’t sound snarky either. I was really joking, and I hope you took it as such, but if not I apologise.
I find your views very interesting and not without merit. People with strong moral codes are always interesting to discuss things with, and you strike me as moral.
So again, apologies if my comment was taken as an insult, it was absolutely not what was meant.
Not at all - your edit comment was quite clear. No offense was intended, and none taken.
Regards,
Shodan
PS - storyteller0910 - If I get a chance, I may take a crack at your post later this evening. I need to get home to the person I don’t want to share with anyone.
Hell no, I’d never let her do that! If she let another man touch her, I’m out the door, never to return! She feels the same way about me and another woman. I would want her to watch me and another woman, however. She feels the same about herself and another guy too. I guess that’s what monogamy is all about though…giving up others for only one.
Strictly just watching. I couldn’t bear to do anything with anyone else but her. Just the thought makes me ill.
I’m surprised at the variety of responses this thread got. I was keeping a running tally and:
12 of you thought it was: Un-natural or sick or "not normal’ or disgusting or odd or otherwise thought it had to do with deep psychological issues.
15 of you said you: Might do it or would consider it or it depended or have done it.
And 25 of you said: You would not do it or wouldn’t be okay with it…BUT, you thought it was a relatively normal or regular kink and didn’t find me any less natural for finding it a turn on.
Just to be clear again, though, since I’m reading some people seemingly saying “it would be messed up if it was my turn on alone (and not hers having to be the participater) and I had her do it just to please me”. That’s not the case. This has happened only once so far and it wasn’t me asking or begging or forcing her to do it against her own desires or wants or wishes. This was agreed upon and enjoyed mutually and exclusively.
Re-reading my post and felt the need to add: She has no desire to see me do anything with any other female as she watches, either. It would make her jealous to no end.
So really, we seem to be perfectly, evenly matched when it comes to both ends and on both sides of each end.
This is the sort of thread where I think that reading through it before responding would actually be counterproductive, so after reading the OP, here’s my take. Would I enjoy seeing my SO with another man? No. Would I find people who did enjoy that sick or perverted? As long as they made their SOs aware of the reason that they were going along with it, no.
In my mind, perversion stems not from any particular desire or enjoyment, but from a situational pleasure taken specifically from its subject(s) not consenting to it. In other words, as long as all parties involved are capable of giving informed consent, and do so, there is nothing perverse about whatever act occurs. To apply that idea to the OP’s question, if I were to set my SO up in a situation where she would encounter another man (recruited by me and fully aware of my intentions) whom I believed she would find attractive, and, unbeknownst to her, watched her interactions with him because it turned me on, then that would be perverted (and wrong) on my part. If that same situation were to occur, except that my SO was aware that I’d be watching and why, then I’d have no problem with it.
So, while I don’t think I’d enjoy seeing my girl with another man, I have no inherent problem with someone else enjoying that. I hope that answers the OP’s question.
From a Christian POV, this is not adultery, then. From an evolutionary POV, I am not sure it makes much difference. Dating is not a strategy with much evolutionary history, as far as I can tell.
Although I would imagine that non-monogamous relationships have a higher break up rate than monogamous ones, if for no other reason than that monogamy has a greater overlap with permanent bondings like marriage. But that goes to my previous point, that “adultery” correlates highly with relationship instability. Therefore insofar as people evolved to value long-term commitment by males and exclusive sexual access for females, they would tend to react emotionally as if they were in a long-term relationship, even if they are only dating.
But that’s the point. Sex is tied up with emotion, especially for women, and it is often difficult to put that aside. I would bet that more men have this voyeur kink than women, for a number of reasons, but not the least being that for women, sex and monogamy are more closely linked. It is more threatening for a woman with small children to lose her male support, thus it would tend to be less common for her to want to see her partner having sex with someone else and thus threatening the relationship. No doubt there are some women like this, but I bet there are more men.
I have no figures, but I wonder how common this interest is. Possibly those who share this kink are prone to over-estimate its occurance. As, indeed, those who don’t would be prone to under-estimate it, as I would tend to do.
[TMI alert]
But my sexual tastes are fairly vanilla. And this may be due to a number of factors, advancing age being one of them, but even in my misspent youth I had virtually no kinks to speak of, even in fantasy. I have no desire to share a partner while I watch, sado-masochism seems either repulsive or incomprehensible, and so on. Perhaps I am misremembering, and it is certainly the case that I am sexually imprinted (if such a phenomenon exists) on one person for the last twenty five years or so, but I have almost no urge towards anything that would appear in a letter to Penthouse.
And this is not, as far as introspection can establish, because I am repressing my darker urges thru moral effort. I just don’t seem to be wired that way. It’s fine to joke around about stuff like that, but for me, jokes and actual desires tend to be mutually exclusive.
I have no idea how common this is, but in my circles, it seems to be the norm.
[/TMIa]
As I mention, it is quite possible I am under-estimating. Perhaps not - I always doubted those who claimed an incidence of 10% or more for homosexuality, based on much the same kind of gut feel, and that also seems close to accurate.
I would guess that this is part of the continuum from “casual acquaintance” thru “hot monkey sex”. Insofar as kissing is sexual, I think this is part of the same maladaptive impulse - kissing tends to lead to sex, therefore a voyeuristic impulse to watch kissing would be selected against to the same degree. But again, I have no idea how common an urge to watch one’s partner kiss someone else is, especially apart from an urge to watch actual intercourse.
It will, with or without your consent, but much of my point was that humans evolved certain emotional responses as part of their adaptation. Therefore, you may be subject to jealousy even if it is “irrational”, i.e. arises in circumstances where you would expect it to be absent.
Evolution operates on groups, not on individuals, as I am sure you are aware. But that means you may be subject to responses that do not necessarily fit your individual circumstances, because you are a member of an evolved group whose ancestors evolved responses that fit theirs. I should add that this may or may not be genetic - there is such a thing as cultural evolution, aspects of which can persist even when they don’t seem to fit.
