See more data? Why? Is he a fucking scientist that understands immunology, and understands population data and multivariate statistics? Is he a medical doctor?
No?
He’s not an expert in this field?
Then he does not “need to see more data”. Fucking idiot.
I could be wrong about herd immunity – possibly because our schools may end up becoming petri dishes. I’ll grant you that.
I was initially basing that projection on the trends that have been observed in India and the UK. India’s trend has continued downward, but I noticed today that, within the past few days, the trend downward hasn’t been quite as sharp in the UK, which…just recently opened back up with few restrictions.
This is obviously an evolving situation. So yeah, I’ll admittedly have to hedge a little on that point before bringing it up again.
Someone said it an another thread, but insurance companies need to get involved.
Failure to be vaccinated should, at the very lease, be a contributory factor and they should either not fund the treatments or fund them at a much lower rate. Maybe go after them after treatment for recovery of the money.
Or, OR…raise the rates for anyone who does not show them proof of vaccination. Or cancel them outright. ***
They can be free to not be vaccinated, but they should not be able to make us pay for their inevitable sickness and treatment.
*** This has probably made it’s way to several insurance company boardrooms.
We had a big national debate about this around twelve years ago, and the eventual decision was that it would become illegal for insurance companies to discriminate on the basis of prior medical history (or anything other than age, location, smoking, and type of plan). So insurance companies can’t do that.
My mother is a Trumper but at least she’s not an anti-vaxxer and has had her two doses. I can’t imagine what it must be like living in the same house with someone you love who has drank the kool-aid and you cannot reason with. You have my sympathies.
But it’s not prior medical history necessarily; it’s a case of not taking preventative care or doing something that’s hazardous to one’s health.
Looks like insurance companies are considering some sort of action already:
Health insurance companies are also considering a financial penalty for those who refuse to get vaccinated. Given the fact that 97% of all COVID-19 hospitalizations are now unvaccinated people, insurers want to encourage people to get the jab to avoid unnecessary six-figure payouts. Such a policy would also benefit the vaccinated who won’t have to pay for rising premiums caused by the unvaccinated.
One thing that’s hardly ever discussed is the costs associated with treatment. People keep talking about how COVID isn’t that deadly. Well maybe it isn’t but if you end up getting hospitalized even for a day, that’ll crimp your lifestyle. Get hospitalized for several weeks, and it’s “Hello, bankruptcy.”
I get the feeling an “insurance MUST cover Covid unconditionally at no extra cost” regulation or even law, probably with compensation from the taxpayer’s money to the insurers for it, would get passed in a day in many states the moment someone cried “poor workers are being denied!!”
‘Spreadnecks.’
That is all.
I love a good bout of schadenfreude as much as anybody else. I relish seeing high-profile GOP COVID-deniers suffering on a ventilator after publicly taking positions that endangered themselves and others.
But look, we’re not going to shame our way out of this thing, and it’s going to have lasting effects if we try.
It’s true that for many people, their refusal is coming from a place of “fuck you”. I have no sympathy for those people, but as a practical matter, each one of them will infect 8 other people, many of whom will be innocents.
More importantly, there are many refusers out there who aren’t assholes, but are just misinformed or disinformed. They aren’t science-watchers, they may be afraid of needles, they may not understand the cost. There is a disinformation machine disproportionately pushing stories like some COVID vaccines were inert saline, which finds fertile ground in communities that historically have good reason to distrust the medical establishment. I literally had a Black medical assistant the other day tell me that she wasn’t getting the vaccine for that specific reason. She thinks it’s just a money-making scam. (Are pharmas going to make money off this? Yes they are! This isn’t insane if you’re not a highly informed person!)
Folks, we’re not going to get there by shaming people who are legitimately confused and misinformed. That’s going to drive them further away.
As far as conservative Republicans motivated by spite, they can’t be shamed. You can’t be in that faction unless you ceremonially and conspicuously shredded your sense of shame years ago.
Shame racists, shame assholes, but don’t shame vaccine hesitants. Although they don’t deserve empathy or tolerance, and I would love if this was a thing where they could just Darwin themselves out of existence, that’s not the reality. In fact, given a partially-vaccinated population, Darwin is just going to keep bringing us stronger and stronger variants. The next one may elude our current vaccines. The next one may be highly fatal to children.
Get off the high horse. You’re gonna kill people.
We are the ones causing the covid deaths? 
Your shaming of the shamers is contributing to deaths as well. 
Insurance companies may not be able to punish the vaccine refusers, but they could provide a reward for proof of vaccination. I know that over the years, my health insurance (through work) has provided rebates on employee contributions for not smoking, for participation in an exercise program, for yearly checkups, etc. So if an insurance company raises everyone’s rate by $500 per year, but provides a reward of a $500 rebate for proof of vaccination, what’s to stop them?
I get my deductible cut in half ($500 to $250) for doing their very easy to complete health program. By early February of each year, I’ve already completed enough walking, biking, hiking and running for the entire year (it’s a very low bar). I’d support this type of program for vaccinations as well.
For sure. Thousands of people are out there getting their jabs because a bunch of cranky alcoholics and dorks on the internet called them “spreadheads” and “wussies.” Huge factor in curing hesitancy.
It’s “spreadnecks”. 
cool man
The problem isn’t “hesitancy”; it’s “willful ignorance”. And there’s no cure for it except by the person affected.
I know, I know. I’ve been reading this thread full of well-balanced and healthy individuals giving me the facts.
I know now that it’s just a wildly stunning coincidence that vaccination levels skyrocket in lockstep with educational attainment. It’s both a “mental illness” and also totally on purpose that people aren’t getting vaccinated. It’s not that they’re just wrong.
Did you miss the sign at the top saying “BBQ Pit”? If you want “facts” about vaccines and masks and so forth, we have a whole other forum for that.
They’re definitely wrong. And a vast majority of them can be openly seen to be rejecting all medical advice and empirical data. Is it a “mental illness”? I dunno - I’m not a psychiatrist. But there’s certainly plenty of evidence for both “wrong” and “willfully ignorant.”
Also, are you sure you want to take the position that castigating people is the wrong way to go about changing their behaviors?
I’m sorry. I’ve got a brother who is all of those things (and a gun nut), but I don’t have to live with him. And for him, becoming a Trumpist isn’t a conversion, Trump just came along and fit in with beliefs my brother already had. So nobody in the family was really surprised.
Back when I would talk to him about this kind of stuff, conversations were pretty much as you describe, but without the personal betrayal stuff, since we’ve always known each other. No surprises, so no betrayal.
My sister and BIL (or at least my sister, and my BIL is an old-fashioned conservative who will go along with my sister just to keep the peace, which, knowing my sister, is a good strategy), too, but they’re much less confrontational than my brother. And also, they live very far away, so there really aren’t the complications that come from regular contact.
They all do, don’t they? Or at least it looks like that to me. That seems to be such a huge part of the Trumpist/anti-vaxx thing. I really have to try to understand this better. They all really want to be Christians in the catacombs or something (without, of course, having to suffer any actual persecution).
To each their own. I’m not going to cut off my brother. Or my sister, who’s actually better at keeping it to herself when necessary. I mean, you can hang with her all day, family gatherings, whatever, and it won’t come up unless someone else injects something into the conversation. Whereas, with my brother, it will come up. And by “it,” I mean all the Trumpist craziness.
The big problem is that our 88-year old father resides in a “memory care” facility. And in addition to severe dementia, he is unable to walk and has various other physical ailments.
And I’d like my brother to visit my father. And my sister. And time is running out. Fast.
But they won’t get vaxxed. Which they’d have to do to enter the facility.
This is a really sad situation.