So, does it get any easier in a relationship?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
61

I’ve never made a threat. Then again, I’m probably not the best candidate as the worst my husband and I have done with each other is that either: one of us fucked up royally and knows it, and the other has a stern, disappointed talk about it; or we’re grouchy and start overreacting a little, then sulk a while, then feel bad and make up.

Threats aren’t a good idea unless you really, really intend to follow through, and soon, if major shit doesn’t happen. The breaking-up threat shouldn’t be pulled out and wielded like a club any time bad-ish stuff happens.

Frankly, if you had a little time I’d suggest couples therapy for you two. However, knowing how much being a newb lawyer is comparable to being a resident physician, I know that the “don’t work so much!” comments really aren’t applicable.

My adviser in grad school, an expert in the field of study of the psychology of interpersonal relationships, said that often what attracts you to someone at the start may become reworded as the thing you hate later on. Did you find her to be assertive? Did she seem to help you find direction or get your act together? What did you like about her, and is that bothering you now?

Also, did/does she know that you have this kind of schedule for years to come? And if so, does she take that seriously or is she like the other posters here who expect that you can just ditch work whenever? Just because you love someone doesn’t mean you can handle certain lifestyles with them.

On preview, what Vihaga said, too. For some reason she’s picking the “nuclear option” of relationship ‘communication’ and you probably know - or can figure out - better than any of us whether this is a habit with her, or if it’s been triggered by something new. (Even if she’s never done it before, maybe she has issues saying anything negative about a relationship and it’s just built up to emergency levels with your new job?)

62

Exactly what I was going to post. My husband is a lawyer, and one of his sons is a young lawyer. He’s been practising for 4 years now, and he’s wondering when he’ll actually have the time to date anyone. Law is a very demanding career, there are no two ways about it, so if this woman isn’t going to respect that, you may as well get out now.

You have both been together for so long that you can’t imagine life without her, I know. But things don’t get better, life holds a lot of challenges and if you’re not compatible now, forget it.

That woman needs more presence than you can give at the moment, she should find herself a civil servant boyfriend. I don’t want to insult a woman I don’t even know, but from what you wrote, she sounds like a spoiled, controlling princess.

63

While that’s a fair comment, in the good days, we’re already loving. It doesn’t get any better. She’s happy, I’m happy, the world is sunshine and flowers. But when things get stressful, either on my side or hers, everything seems to fall to pieces, and in a spectacularly bad way.

I’m not looking for more loving or better, because that’s not really our problem… the problem is the bad patches. Or should it be difficult to love someone?

Or am I going about the question wrong? If you love someone enough, everything is easy?

64

Neither is true - it’s not difficult to love, nor is everything easy when in love.

However, in my experience at least, my husband is my best buddy (and vice versa), and importantly, we’re partners. We back each other up, we’re there for each other when things get bad.

It sounds like for you two, it’s easy to be happy and in love when things are good. But add some stress and not only are you two unhappy (which is normal), but the love starts faltering. There’s the problem. Traditional wedding vows have this whole “in sickness and in health” comparison, and it sounds like when your relationship experiences “sickness” then it goes to heck. Not a good thing.

So you may need to look at why that happens.

65

I’ve read all the posts all the way through, the analyzing, deconstructing, apologizing, the justifying that “it’s really good, most of the time, except for these really bad times”, the advice on how you need to change, the advice on how she needs to change. It doesn’t matter who’s to blame, or if you’re too attached to your job, or any of it. None of this matters, you don’t need couples counseling, you don’t need to re-evaluate your commitment or over-commitment to your job.

*Neither one of you will change, the job situation won’t change (you’re committed to a high-maintenance career, and that’s ok) and it won’t get easier There’s not enough there to get married. She’s not the one for you. *

Period, full stop. Run. Don’t get married. Don’t look back.

66

No. If you’re compatible enough, you actually view the other person as a partner who can help you solve problems. Not on obstacle to be overcome on the way to happiness.

You can love someone lots and be terribly incompatible.

Threatening to leave is very toxic behavior. I don’t do it, and neither do most women. Your almost-fiancee is either truly at the end of her rope (something you should seriously think about) or extremely immature (something you should also think about).

Taking the facts in the light most favorable to the defendant, counselor, she is screaming to be heard. For whatever reason, you are continue to only see the surface problem (she was mad because I cancelled) and not the underlying problem (she is not feeling loved and secure in the relationship). It appears you believe that because one cannot be easily fixed (long hours are required) the other problem is insurmountable as well. Plus, in your last post you completely rejected and invalidated her statement to you that she was feeling insecure. I really question your need to argue that point.

You might try The Five Love Languages… its a little cheesy and kind of Christian but basically it outlines how various people express their love - when love expression styles do not match, the receiving party just doesn’t feel loved, even though the giving party is really trying to communicate love.
http://www.fivelovelanguages.com/learn.html

67

Ha! You think that what you’re having now is “the bad patches?” Take your head out of the sand and look around you. Look at what other people are dealing with. If you and she can’t handle this situation, how are you going to handle it when–
–One of you gets seriously ill or
–You have a sick or disabled child or
–You’re being sued or
–You lose your job or
–Any of the stuff that happens in life.

It sounds like you have a LOT of growing up to do.

And while it seems that you certainly are as much to blame for the problems in your relationship as she is…well, I have to totally agree with the poster that referred to her as “one of THOSE women” and the poster that speculated about what a divorce from such a nasty Gollum would be like.

No, not all women are like that. Not at all. Nope nope nope.

You may have your flaws, but she sounds like a total shithead.

Why don’t you try an experiment? Propose to her, but do it with a very modest ring. See how she reacts.

Actually, you don’t have to do the experiment, 'cause you know exactly how she’ll react.

I wish you strength and luck.

68

Something to also consider, does she have depression? That could also add to her freak outs.

I’m 25 and the SO is 26. We’ve been together for 7.5 years and I also gave my SO a time limit for us to get engaged.

Background: I came from an abusive family. Due to my environment and lack of support and familial love, I had very low self-esteem. I was pretty depressed and suicidal when my SO and I first met. He helped me through the rough patches, but I put him damn near through hell and back. But he knew I was depressed and had anger issues because that’s how my family expressed any type of emotion to each other. He understood and he tried to help me work through it for not just me, but for us. He said that I put him through a lot because I was dealing with my inner demons and I’m honestly trying to work through my anger issues and my tendency to want to hurt myself as well as him when we fight (e.g. “well then should we be together?”).

I think also because of my background, I knew if I was to find a partner, I needed that security that someone will be there for me, even when I’m going through one of my crazy stages. So early in our relationship, I told the SO that if he wanted a future with me, I had to get married. Not anytime soon, but in the distant future.

I asked him today and he said it’s been at least a year since I got depressed like that, and I’d like to think that I’m getting better about not sinking into my black hole of despair. It greatly helps that since I graduated from college, my family at least understand that I cannot have contact with my father because he was the one mostly abusing me while I was growing up. No father + more stability in my life in general = happier me. Well what do you know!

But the bottom line is the SO and I discussed our issues and he told me how much I hurt him and he even told me that the last time I broke down was the last time he could handle something like that. Now I’m more careful about how I’m feeling and if I’m feeling depressed, I go away for a while, cool down, then go back and talk things out with him.

It’s a two-way street though. He understood my need to have that symbolism that we’ll get married and he saw that I was working hard to become a better person for him, so he proposed December 24th, 2007.

Relationships will always have ups and downs. What matters is how you deal with those rough times and how you treat your partner through the worst of it. Going for the low blows might feel good (or bad depending on how you want it), but that won’t help the longevity of your relationship.

You need to weigh what’s important to each other and compromise. Love isn’t everything, but I believe it’s worth a hell of a lot. But is it enough for you two? Only you two can decide.

Good luck to you.

Btw, the SO pointed out that I might get flamed for posting this. I just wanted to give the OP another angle to look at his problem. I know what I did to my SO was horrible and I sincerely apologized for my behavior. I’m trying to never make those mistakes again. So please, I would appreciate it if anyone is going to yell at me, at least PM me so we don’t derail this thread.

69

I have to say, while I love my husband and have no desire to leave him now or ever because of the good we are to each other, I would never say our relationship is a breeze. Maybe some people fit together like that, but we sure don’t. We have our issues and we talk about them, but it takes effort to recognize the issues and work them out in a way that works for both of us. I know it sounds trite, but communication is so important in a relationship. Both you (the OP) and your girlfriend need to work on that.

You - apologizing profusely and then doing it again makes that apology moot. If you did something that hurt her feelings and you feel bad about it, you need to change the situation so that it doesn’t happen again. And if it does happen again, explain the extenuating circumstances.

For her - she needs to stop the passive aggressive attitude, which is not helping anything. Clearly, she misses you because you are working too much and not making time for her. She needs to tell you that, not by threatening to leave you (in order to hurt you back, because she might be feeling rejected by you), but by telling you that she cares about you and wants to spend time with you. Obviously, just telling her she’s passive aggressive wouldn’t help anyone, but recognizing it and then addressing it will. And the best way to address it is to talk to her and encourage her to tell you what she really feels. Likewise, tell her what you really feel too, rather than telling her things to make her feel better.

70

I can’t address much else than this, although I would say you should find someone else who is also a workaholic in some field and would agree with you that work comes first.

But as to this part of your post, my feeling has always been that “For Pete’s sake, express an opinion, dammit!” Whether it’s what you want for dinner, what movie you want to see, what color you’d like to see in the living room or which thing you think looks best on me, just express a damn opinion. I’m not playing gotcha. I want to know. I know you’ll eat just about anything. But tell me what you’d like to eat most today. At least tell me if you’e more in the mood for Chinese or Italian, or that you’d prefer blue to red.

Every time a guy does this to me, I feel like I’m being totally blown off, that you don’t want to be bothered to put in a second or two’s worth of though into it. That what we do just isn’t important enough to him to waste his oh-so-precious time on it. You’re the one going to be eating it, watching the movie, seeing the living room, or looking at me. You have an interest in these things.

I swear, I’d rather have an overly controlling man than an overly passive one. At least I’d know what the controlling man wanted. (Actually at this point I don’t want a man period, but the point still holds).

71

[QUOTE=Vulnerant Omnes]
And does changing partners really make a difference, or is it just going to be the same song with different words? {/QUOTE]

If you have unreasonable expectations and lack the time to nurture a relationship and you aren’t going to change those things, then, no, changing to a new partner is not going to magically make all the problems go away. But, that’s no reason to settle for the kind of intermittent adequacy you are describing. The question you ask here is frustrating because, yeah, it matters a lot who you are having a relationship with. A different partner would be, um, different. If there were to be any “same song” problem, I’d consider the shared factor in each scenario: you.

72

No, rather you are underreacting to them. Those threats are a signal you should pay attention NOW. And either show her you won’t put up with it, or show her you are willing to make changes to give her what she needs and what you are willing to give her. Right now your reaction is, frankly, lame. Your excuses, and hard work, don’t really allow her to get angry with you, and on the other hand you show no signs of putting your actions where your mouth is. Your situation is slowly festering.

As you probably guessed by now, I am in a similar situation as your fiance. My and my husband both work part-time and have a two month old baby. I have a job that doesn’t require overtime; I’m home when I said I would be home. My husband works long hours, works at home. He doesn’t earn any more then me, though. His working long hours is partly due to his job’s culture, partly because of his own private perfectionism. His perfectionism, by the way, has the same aggravating effect on the amount of hours worked, as your chaos and ineffectual emotional responses will probably have. No wonder your future wife hates those traits in you !
Do I really mean such threats? At the time I make them, yes. For me, such threats mean I feel so hurt, that I want to detach myself from the one hurting me so much. That doesn’t mean there is deep ambivalence; I odn’t want to feel that way. I rather be a happy family, and if my husband says the right thing that gives me hope somethign will change for the better, then I can give in to the loving feelings that are also there.
But I get the feeling that is not what you want to hear. You seem to be looking for an almost mechanical answer. You want to know if your wife makes such threats, then if you act a certain way, it’s all gonna get good again. Like saying in a deep manly voice: “Honey, shut the fuck up, I’m not gonna take this from you. Now smile and lets watch TV together like a loving couple”.
No, the real life, adult, confusing answer is that your fiance means those threats, but she isn’t there yet to make good on them.

Yet.

73

… from someone older I’d expect that to be rethoric…

Yes, it does make a difference.
I’ve dated guys who informed me that they were looking to get married and their wife would have to make less money than they. Has every guy I’ve dated dropped that stinker? Ogette be thanked, no.
I’ve dated a guy who was a serial one-nighterer (new word!). Has every guy I’ve dated been like that? Og take my enemies, no.
I’ve dated guys who liked the same movies I do, guys who didn’t, guys who understood my work priorities, guys who didn’t, guys who thought it was neat I’m an engineer, guys who snorted at the notion that someone with boobs can be an engineer… While “how much do engineers make” wasn’t a decision point for my choice of major, I did know it; my SiL-the-doctor didn’t know how much doctors make until she entered her residency.

All people are not made equal. Some can put up with baby-lawyer’s hours better than others. Some want to put up with baby-lawyer’s hours so long as other things make up for those; some don’t. You need someone who can and wants to put up with your hours because the way you feel about your work is a part of what makes you be you. (And you need to learn to be more straightforward in your communication, and to learn that apologies mean shit if there isn’t any intent to correct the problem).

74

From her POV, it seems like she’s finding out that you’re really selfish with your time, and she’s trying to find out if there’s any amount of coercion that will change that situation. There’s no “maintenance period” after you’ve entered a threatening/blackmailing cycle… you call the bluff decisively and live with the outcome. Likewise there is no “maintenance period” where you can fail to share your time on a regular basis and expect your partner to accede cheerfully.

75

[QUOTE=NavaAll people are not made equal. Some can put up with baby-lawyer’s hours better than others. Some want to put up with baby-lawyer’s hours so long as other things make up for those; some don’t. You need someone who can and wants to put up with your hours because the way you feel about your work is a part of what makes you be you. [/QUOTE]

And this is what it comes down to, really.

What is the perfect woman? What traits does she have? There’s no one answer. It all depends on you, your qualities, and what you’re looking for.

I’m actually quite a bit like you, VO. I’m a bit disorganized, and forgetful, and I’m not careful with my time (although I lack the job with the long hours). I absolutely have faults, but the good news is that it doesn’t matter that much in my relationship, because Mrs. Fresh is OK with that. She’s a hardcore geek who knows that she married another hardcore geek; in fact, that’s why she married me. We have an understanding. We both know that we have to share each other with the languages and the computers and the history books, and that some things in the real world are going to fall through the cracks. She’s not exactly ecstatic when things fall through the cracks, but she can cope.

Now that doesn’t mean she’s a doormat. Geek stuff she can handle, but if I were ever to cheat on her even once, the marriage would be over. The only question would be if she would divorce me, shoot me in my sleep, or wake me up first. We love each other very much. I could not see myself married to any other woman, but that is a line we simply don’t cross.

What I’m trying to say here, VO, is that if you’re looking for the perfect relationship, forget it. There’s no such thing. The best and most convenient relationship is going to be a royal pain in the ass at times. Also, if you’re trying to become perfect, forget it. You never will get perfect. I would say that your disorganization and rather sloppy approach to the relationship aside, you strike me as a decent and sincere guy who’s really interested in doing the right thing, but that’s my point. I’ve been married over ten years, and I still can’t get everything right. You don’t want a perfect relationship. You want a relationship in which you can manage the imperfections, and without insulting your SO, I just don’t see that happening here. You two are fundamentally incompatible.

There are women out there who can handle your faults. They’ll miss you when you’re gone, but they’ll understand if you have to put in 14 hour days or whatever. They’re not looking for ring size or romantic baubles (Again, my wife is a good example. She actually gets pissed when I bring her flowers and candy, because she’s watching her weight, and she considers flowers a waste of money.). If you look hard enough you can find these women.

If you stick with your SO, all that’s going to happen is that the both of you will be unhappy. It’s great that you love each other, but love simply isn’t enough, and that’s a lesson that many would-be couples in would-be marriages find out the hard way. In the end, she’s not what you’re looking for. You’re not what she’s looking for. Adapt the situation to yourself, not yourself to the situation.

Good luck. I hope it works out for the best.

76

And this is what it comes down to, really.

What is the perfect woman? What traits does she have? There’s no one answer. It all depends on you, your qualities, and what you’re looking for.

I’m actually quite a bit like you, VO. I’m a bit disorganized, and forgetful, and I’m not careful with my time (although I lack the job with the long hours). I absolutely have faults, but the good news is that it doesn’t matter that much in my relationship, because Mrs. Fresh is OK with that. She’s a hardcore geek who knows that she married another hardcore geek; in fact, that’s why she married me. We have an understanding. We both know that we have to share each other with the languages and the computers and the history books, and that some things in the real world are going to fall through the cracks. She’s not exactly ecstatic when things fall through the cracks, but she can cope.

Now that doesn’t mean she’s a doormat. Geek stuff she can handle, but if I were ever to cheat on her even once, the marriage would be over. The only question would be if she would divorce me, shoot me in my sleep, or wake me up first. We love each other very much. I could not see myself married to any other woman, but that is a line we simply don’t cross. It’s not that we don’t have faults. We just have faults that the other can handle.

What I’m trying to say here, VO, is that if you’re looking for the perfect relationship, forget it. There’s no such thing. The best and most convenient relationship is going to be a royal pain in the ass at times. Also, if you’re trying to become perfect, forget it. You never will get perfect. I would say that your disorganization and rather sloppy approach to the relationship aside, you strike me as a decent and sincere guy who’s really interested in doing the right thing, but that’s my point. I’ve been married over ten years, and I still can’t get everything right. You don’t want a perfect relationship. You want a relationship in which you can manage the imperfections, and without insulting your SO, I just don’t see that happening here. You two are fundamentally incompatible.

There are women out there who can handle your faults. They’ll miss you when you’re gone, but they’ll understand if you have to put in 14 hour days or whatever. They’re not looking for ring size or romantic baubles (Again, my wife is a good example. She actually gets pissed when I bring her flowers and candy, because she’s watching her weight, and she considers flowers a waste of money.). If you look hard enough you can find these women.

If you stick with your SO, all that’s going to happen is that the both of you will be unhappy. It’s great that you love each other, but love simply isn’t enough, and that’s a lesson that many would-be couples in would-be marriages find out the hard way. In the end, she’s not what you’re looking for. You’re not what she’s looking for. Adapt the situation to yourself, not yourself to the situation.

Good luck. I hope it works out for the best.

77

Looking at the big picture here, not just you and her, 18-year-olds who have decided to be a couple are taking a huge risk, mainly that of growing in different, incompatible ways, which is extremely likely. You, for example, have grown into a person whose job is very demanding and important–I assume at age 18 your job was less so. She has grown into a person who takes offense at playing second fiddle to your job. Both are reasonable kinds of growth, and in the big picture, this 7 year period would represent to most outside observers a period of extraordinary change. If you two met today, you probably wouldn’t last more than a date or two before you decided you were utterly incompatible.

Unfortunately, you’re in the habit of thinking of her as yours, and she of thinking of you as hers, and you’ve been predicating your lives on that premise. I think if you just saw this in broader terms, which is very hard to do, you’d see this as a situation you were very lucky to extend for 7 years.

I don’t think it will get better, in short. The sooner you drop the entire predicate of “This relationship MUST work,” you’ll be able to see that it doesn’t have to, no one’s to blame, this is normal for young couples, you each grew in different ways. Why stay committed to some abstract idea thought up by two 18-year-olds who don’t even exist anymore? Get out and get on with your life. It’s not so bad. I’ve been there–I stuck out my deep commitment made at age 17 until my late thirties, and wish I’d had the balls to assess the relationship much earlier, like before I had kids with her. You know, sort of where you are today.

78

She’s right, I think.

( You don’t have time for a partner in your life just now, and may not for a few years to come. Nor do you have the life/time management skills to get through a ‘few’ years of this. Maybe one day you will, but you don’t currently. It is somewhat selfish for you to think you can have a love interest in your life when you don’t have the time to give to that relationship.)

And at some level, I think you know it.

You are passionately absorbed in launching a demanding career. It will continue to be demanding, you will continue to work long hours, cancel meals etc, to rise to the challenge. She will continue to find being second to your job offensive to her sensibilities, as would many women.

The apologizing, making it up to her and ring stuff don’t really come into it for me.

She has rightly assessed that she deserves more from her love interest than you are currently in a position to offer. She needs someone who can be there for her. She is being accurate and honest, are you?

You should let her go, if you care about her at all and her happiness, she deserves better and she knows it, and so do you.

You got together when you were very young. I assume you have had a wonderful time over the 7 years you’ve been together. But you’ve just started on a long path of long hours and putting your career first. Own your part in this, let her go, move on.

And Good Luck to you in your endeavours!

79

The question is, will she be happy with a 9-5 lower earner, or were his career aspirations an important part in her desire to be with him?

80

You’re not her boyfriend, you’re a damn golden retriever. I cannot imagine any circumstance under which I’d stand outside someone else’s place (balcony be damned) while they ate, just for the privilege of getting scolded when they were done.
Let’s get some things straight-

  1. People don’t CHANGE. People grow together. She’s not interested in growing with you and you incorrectly believe that your circumstances dictate your behavior too much to grow with her.

  2. Engagement is not a step or a commitment or a milestone. Engagement is an important point on the way to marriage. If she’s pushing you to “get engaged,” or pushing you to propose, she is looking either for status or assurances, neither of which is really deliverable by a meaningless question asked under duress, the size of the rock be damned.

  3. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Either she understands you or she doesn’t- either she’s willing to put up with you as you are or she isn’t. And either one doesn’t make her a good or a bad person- if she needs more than you can give her, that’s nobody’s fault, but you have to accept that and move on.

  4. You’re 25. If you’re big-firm, this isn’t going to stop. She can be a lawyer’s wife or she can not- but if your partner in life cannot take you as you are, then you’re both better off with other people.

None of this is about the hours- this is about whether two people can live with each other. And it doesn’t look like you two can.

Listen to Inigo- throwing good money after bad, especially when that money is emotional currency- is the worst idea you could piossibly have.