I would like to keep it to the 6 movies if at all possible but feel free to talk about cannon sources. I think Anakin is out because Obi-Wan bested him, as well as Darth Maul who took out his master Qui-jon as well. My top 3 would be Mace, Yoda, and Obi. Palpatine had already lost to Mace if it wasn’t for Anakin involvement and Yoda seemed to have stood his ground again Palpatine before a tactical withdraw.
Most powerful as in what? Do you mean potential aptitude or actual ability?
If we’re talking just the 6 movies, I think the most powerful force-user was Anakin Skywalker before his arm-cutting-off. Obviously he was controlled and beaten by others, but that was due to him being manipulated not by greater force-users but by greater guile and experience. If you mean actual ability reached, probably Yoda, because Palpatine’s ability was as much political as force-based.
If we take the EU into account, either Luke Skywalker, since he was essentially Anakin unmaimed, or Jacen Solo. Same for actual ability, although the gap between the two widens in favour of Jacen at the moment.
Yoda, just for sheer longevity and that badass lightsaber battle with Palpatine. Seeing that little Grover-voiced muppet whirl and twirl like a dervish with a lightsaber never ceases to amaze.
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Using the Force to send this to IMHO.
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I disagree with this. Beating someone does not necessarily mean that he is superior. My interpretation of the fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin in Episode 3 is such that Anakin is over-confident and somewhat “playing” with Obi-Wan. It is ultimately his over-confidence that does him in, not Obi-Wan’s superior skill. Further, Obi-Wan IS the Jedi who trained him, so he would be intimately familiar with tendencies and such, which would likely allow him to hold closer than a similarly skilled, but unfamiliar Jedi would against Anakin. Further, don’t forget that Palpatine specifically says to Yoda that Anakin will become more powerful than either of them.
Thus, my theory would go that Anakin has the most natural talent, but it is ultimately squandered by going to the dark side and subjugating himself to a master who is likely deliberately holding him back.
However, as I gather, there are really two types of Jedi, those who are Light Saber Masters, and those who are Force Masters. I think this is why Mace was able to best Palpatine in a Light Saber Duel, but Yoda was unable to defeat him, despite clearly being more powerful in the Force.
IOW, I would say Palpatine is probably the most powerful in the Force, Mace is probably the most powerful with a Light Saber, and Anakin has the most potential, but doesn’t quite realize it.
Of course, I know very little about the extended universe, but I’d still be hard-pressed to imagine anyone would get more powerful than Anakin, simply because he was the most powerful Jedi ever to that point, and any of his off-spring would seem to have a diminished amount of force power.
Also, a little OT, but I’m of the mind that the tragedy of Darth Plagus (however it’s spelled) that is told by Palpatine to Anakin is likely about Darth Sidious’s master, that the life he created was Anakin (hence, why he didn’t have a father), and that it was Sidious himself who killed his master in his sleep and, thus, why he was able to perpetuate the story. Am I reading too far into it, or does this hold water?
Using the Dark Side of the Force to send this to Cafe Society
This Thread is like a tennis ball.
I vote Yoda!
Where does the Thread land next, the Pit?
Another vote for Yoda. In addition to kicking ass like Mini Me-in-a-Wendy’s-on-acid-and-with-a-machete he was the only one who knew exactly what was coming when Papa Palp’s minions began murdering Jedi.
It’s probably a semantical argument, but I’d say that Anakin’s over-confidence does play a factor in how “great” he is. Being strong in the force does not equal being a great Jedi.
Much as being a technical whiz at guitar doesn’t make you a great guitar player, there are many factors that go into being great (or ‘most powerful’), with proficiency in the technical aspects of one’s field being important, but not all encompassing.
In regards to the Obi-Wan Anakin fight, Obi-Wan won that by being a better fighter. He was perhaps outclassed in light saber usage, but he made up for it by fighting smart.
I also felt that this was the whole point of Obi-Wan’s death scene in the first movie. “Strike me down, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine,” or some such. Vader could beat Obi-Wan in a saber fight, but that is a mere part of what makes a Jedi powerful.
How can anyone think Yoda is more powerful than the Emperor? Yoda didn’t make a tactical retreat from Palpatine he was running for his life. Yoda put up a good fight but Palpatine won that day.
Unless someone else has higher ground, I guess.
Yoda get my vote. Of course, as others have said it depends on what exactly you mean by ‘most powerful’. In a straight up fight? Having been in a lot of fights and having studied martial arts I can tell you that winning or losing a fight doesn’t necessarily mean you are the most skillful (or less skillful). It comes down to how you match up with the guy in front of you. There have been people who I have sparred with who I could beat but who could beat other people who I NEVER could beat. There were guys who I could take in a straight up spar but who would own me if we ever got on the ground…and vice versa. So…it would depend on how the fight went, who fought smarter to their strengths (and how those strengths and weaknesses balanced out)…and luck. A lucky kick, a mis-timed strike and things can change in a heart beat.
So, to me Yoda was ‘most powerful’…which doesn’t mean he was necessarily the best guy in a fight. He was the strongest and most knowledgeable in the use and potential of the force though, seemingly knowledgeable about both the light and dark sides of the force…while his only real rival, the Emperor, focused mainly on JUST the dark side.
Besides, Yoda kicked some serious ass and I think he would have beaten the Emperor and simply made a tactical retreat in the face of overwhelming outside forces. At that point things had shifted so that winning would have meant the extinction of the Jedi with both of them dead…and I think Yoda decided it was better to live to fight another day. Showing both wisdom and courage…as well as great skill.
Hands down he is the, um, man…
Soooo geeky. I cringe every time I get into one of these threads, since despite recognizing the ample flaws in this series, I find my self reading so much about them like any ole’ fanboy :D. Must be the universal fascination with badass faux sword-fighting.
Anywho, according to one novel, I think, Mace had referred to late-period ( i.e. his Jedi Master days ) Obi-Wan as the ultimate master of the Form 3 lightsaber style. Form 3 emphasized creating an impenetrable defence above all things, wearing down an opponent until they made a mistake and allowed a counter-stroke. It’s main flaws was that it was apparently less effective against a slew of attackers and it could be slow going against a talented opponent. Apparently all this was incorporated into movie canon and choreography. ( In the first movie as an apprentice he was a Form 4 master like Qui-Gonn and Yoda, but abandoned it after noticing its defensive flaws ).
So in the Obi-Wan/Anakin duel, you’ll see Anakin, an offensively-minded Form 5 master, relentlessly advancing and attacking, while Obi-Wan steadily retreated and defended. The whole “higher ground” thing was a tad retarded, but you could fan-wank it as a frustrated Anakin, unable to penetrate Obi-Wan’s defence, throwing caution to the wind and attacking too recklessly, giving Obi-Wan the opening he needed, aided by his superior position.
At any rate the point is that on technical merits alone, Obi-Wan was in fact supposedly an utterly badass lightsaber duelist and perhaps the one best suited to taking out a headstrong emotional type like Anakin, despite his enormous ability.
Which doesn’t make Obi-Wan stronger than Anakin per se, just well suited to fighting him.
The best is JarJar!!
Anyone who doesn’t think so sleeps with their mother! And or fornicates with farm animals and implements (but not hoes)!
Fuck piss ass!
Happy, Bosda? Next stop the pit.
This post has single-handedly convinced me that I must start reading the EU books. Damn you.
Eh, all the lightsaber form stuff is covered pretty well by wikipedia, which is where I’m pretty sure I got most of the above:
There’s a lot of the lightsaber-form talk in the novelisation for Revenge of the Sith. So you might want to pick up that one.
It’s actually good at explaining a lot of what’s going on. Count Dooku, for example, was very dangerous because the Jedi at the time had been trained to go up against opponents with blasters, and most didn’t have to go all lightsabery all the time anyway; Dooku’s form is excellent against other lightsaber wielders, which is why he’s so easily able to beat Obi Wan and Anakin the first time. The second time through they trick him into thinking they’re still using the same styles, and then switch into using different forms they’ve been working on; Obi Wan into his incredibly-defensive focused form, while Anakin switches into his incredibly offensive form. Since Dooku’s form is based on small movements and turning attacks away easily with the minimum of effort, he can’t really do anything to Obi Wan and Anakin just hits straight through his defense.
Maybe the people in this thread can answer me this somewhat-related question:
In episode II (?), Obi Wan makes an offhand comment to Anakin along the lines of “if you spent as much effort on learning the lightsaber as you do on learning piloting, you’d be an unbeatable duelist.”
I took that to mean that swordplay is Anakin’s weakest area – perhaps to explain why he would later (episode VI) be bested by a kid with maybe three days of lightsaber training.
But people in this thread (who seem to know what they’re talking about) say that Anakin was a lightsaber master. What should we make of the Obi Wan’s comment?
Well, I think you are under-rating Luke and his natural ability. He is sort of like the chosen one character…he has abilities far beyond what training he has had. And he was on Dagoba (however it’s spelled) a bit more than ‘3 days’…plus he basically loses that first duel against Darth Vader (where he gets his hand cut off) and doesn’t win until he has grown into his abilities much more.
I think Anakin was a strong but perhaps not very smart fighter…to impetuous, to emotionally driven to ever be a great fighter. But still very strong.
Probably someone more steeped in SW lore will be along to tell me why all of the above is wrong.