Well, sort of – but your analogy possibly breaks down when you consider that any decent salesman knows it’s all about VOLUME! VOLUME! VOLUME! and if this prospect isn’t panning out then immediately cut your losses and move on to the next one. That’s how these guys do it!
In addition, what I’ve heard from my woman friends is that if there’s a man who won’t leave you alone and/or obviously can’t gauge body language/lack of responsiveness, a lot of the time if you turn him down flat, he’ll call you a bitch or otherwise behave unpleasantly.
Oh, I think that this guy definitely needed an oral testicular insertion, no matter what your marital status was. Perhaps Qadgop could give us some ideas.
“Bitch” is usually one of the NICER things that a man like this will call a woman who has the nerve to turn him down, IME.
Sorry this is so long. But I want to respond to everything, as well as make my own point. And you guys frown on multiposts.
But that’s the thing–these situations are nowhere near equivalent. The first one is a gift, and you’re not supposed to say bad things about gifts. It just doesn’t really matter if she thinks you like it. With the second one, there’s no time for the bride to fix it, so there’s no point in telling her it’s bad. It will only serve to make her feel bad.
But, with the guy, there’s no time restraint, and letting you think you like him has a big downside, if this thread is to be believed. He may not get the hint. It may make him feel bad, but more direct language will make sure he knows what’s going on.
So I think your second response is best. It even manages to try and cushion the blow, without being misleading.
Nope. As you’ve already admitted, one requires body language to be effective. Or multiple uses, if that doesn’t work. Guys are bad at reading body language. I don’t know if it has something to do with the physiological differences in our brains, or if it’s just that guys have been socialized to be more direct, and don’t need to read body language as often. Heck, probably both.
Another difference between guys and girls. Guys are generally more flattered in this situation, and maybe just get annoyed if she asks a bunch of times. But she likely won’t, and will just pine for him, dropping hints occasionally. And the guy is likely to ignore (or miss) the hints and enjoy the company. Heck, having a woman around him makes him seem more attractive. But that’s a whole other thread.
As for me, I think the OP has it right. It’s the best of both worlds. Drop the hints, and hope he gets it, but, if he doesn’t, be more blunt. But I’d prefer her escalate more quickly. The second time I’d prefer something soft and hard, like: “I’m sorry, but I’m just not attracted to you that way.” If you really mean it, I might add “We can be friends, but only if you never ask me out again.” That would be clear to me, and I’d rather be friends than nothing, but I can understand if you think it would make him think he has a chance. Perhaps something like “I’m sure there’s someone else who would like you,” if you’re worried you hurt his feelings too much.
matt_mcl’s post is something I’ve only seen if the woman goes from dropping hints to being rude. But, if he’s right, I understand why women obfuscate so much. But the consequence of obfuscating is that the guy may not get it right away.
Oh, and OP: your guy is a moron. Most women I know would have a restraining order on the guy, and on anyone that makes it all the way through your “saying” no routine. I actually think you’re a bit too nice, MeanOldLady.
Our friend alice’s dad stalked her mom into marriage. It’s lunacy, I tells ya! Now that I’ve already multi-quoted, I’m too lazy to find her post, but it was a tale of the stalker prevailing. Which is… good?
People can, but it can be hard because some people are so terrified of perceived as not being nice, that they dance around the issue, and hope the other person takes the hint. 1) I’m not one of those people, but 2) if someone has to wash her hair every time you ask her out, take the hint.
Don’t tack on “I wish I could.” Just say “I don’t want to.”
I’ve been a sales (wo)man, and when people give conditional responses, yes, you should address the conditions and adjust until you get to a yes. “I have to ask my wife.” Great, let’s talk to your wife. “I don’t have time.” Super, let’s establish when you do have time and talk then. “I don’t like the rate.” Good news! We’re lowering your rate. “I hate you, and I hate your product, there is nothing you can do to convince me to purchase this. Please stop calling me, and leave me alone forever.” Err, sorry to bother you.
No?
Not to mention a bizarre coincidence. Of all the people to stalk her mom into marriage, it turns out to be her dad!
Wait . . .
Of course, any salesperson who didn’t give up after that wouldn’t be a salesperson, he would be an idiot. And so would any guy. There are definitely crazy asshole guys. And there are even more guys who are just a little bit clueless and take too long to get the hint. On the other side, there are some women who are pretty lousy about giving a clear no and there are a few who are remarkably bad at it.
I recently asked a woman to play tennis with me. I got about as enthusiastic yes as I’ve ever gotten. She said she was excited, said she was going to plan some warm up drills for us to do. She was supposed to get back to me with a specific time to be free. A week goes by and I haven’t heard from her but I figure she was so enthusiastic it’s worth sending an e-mail asking if she still wants to play. I get an enthusiastic e-mail saying she’s free anytime Sunday so I ask if I can pick her up at noon. I never heard from her. I think anyone would agree that enthuiastically saying yes to somebody twice when you really mean no is an inconsiderate bitchy and sort of bizarre way to reject someone. But in my experience she’s an extreme outlier and very few people are that inconsiderate.
I think the psycho men you mentioned who won’t give up are worse… but still, they’re the extreme not the norm, right?
All I’m really getting at is that your supposition that we’re primarily motivated to avoid rejection is incorrect. It’s really not hurtful. I just go on my way.
Honestly, I’m really trying to understand how “Sorry, can’t make it” is so vastly different than “No thanks” in terms of conveying “I don’t like you.” Neither statement goes as far as saying that, right?And neither one requires body language either. But both statements are forms of turning down a date, which is all that matters. The person who is receiving the rebuff still is left wondering if it’s a matter of disinterest or something else in either situation. So I fail to see how “no thanks” is so much clearer than dismissing someone the other way.
It doesn’t matter that in my previous examples, we’re talking about different things. The point is that we tend to resort to ego-sparing diplomacy in situations in which feelings can be hurt. We do this all the time. From the “Do these pants make me look fat?” situations to the “Does size really matter, hon?” kind of questions. So expecting anyone to deviate from that pattern when dealing with strangers or semi-strangers is expecting too much, IMO. If we aren’t always straight with friends and family, acquaintances are certainly not going to dealt with any differently.
I hear this a lot, but I don’t believe in this generalization. Most men in my experience read body language just fine. Some may be bad at reading it, true. Especially when they are drunk. But not so many that this is an accurate statement. The reason I say this is because when I go out of way to send non-verbal signals of interest to a guy, I can tell when he picks up on it. He will usually come over and talk to me. On the converse, my default expression is admittedly not approachable (I always look as if I’m in serious contemplation [which I sorta am]…which is probably why I get told to smile all the time), and as a result I only occasionally get guys hitting on me when I’m out and about. Since my looks are not a issue, I can only assume it’s because my body language is sending men certain signals. They are attuned to these signals and stay away. (If I were a guy I’d probably not hit on me, either.)
I don’t think that guys are bad at reading body language; I think they’re conditioned to ignore it in women. They seem to do just fine at body language and other forms of communication if they’re in a situation where they consider it manly to be able to communicate, for example, with their boss.
I’m saying even a salesperson, who has to be more persistent than would be expected in most conversations in order to make a living, should reach a point where he accepts that no means no.
It is not unusual for men not to accept the first rejection (sigh), but I’ve only been harassed for six years once.
Well I certainly don’t like rejection. I only ask guys out if I’m already certain they like me, and even then, I’m usually too chickenshit to do it. The last guy I asked out married me. Not sure if I’d place that in the successes or failures column, but I did get what I was going for at the time, so I’ll categorize it as a win.
I’m glad that one worked out for you. I believe you don`t like rejection; I think most women probably feel that way. I dislike rejection in some situations. I’ve never had a job but if I ever wanted to get one I’d probably be afraid of rejection. I’m certainly not saying men are unfeeling robots. But when it comes to asking some woman you’re interested in out, being rejected isn’t a big deal after you do it for a while. There are bounds of normalcy that clearly some men in your life have crossed, sometimes by really wide margins. But within a normal range, avoiding rejection isn’t as big a deal for a guy who’s been dating for a long time than it might be for a woman who has rarely asked a guy out or a teenage boy or the occasional straight dope male who doesn’t get out much.
I guess a more accurate thing to say is I’m terrified of rejection. I don’t know how I’d feel if it ever happened. Maybe I’d find it isn’t half bad, but I made a point of only asking people out who I already knew would say yes, so I never found out. I guess there’s still time.
Female here. I refuse to sit around and wait for someone to reject me. If I’m interested, I’ll ask him to do something. The kind of men I like would respect this. I will, however, give someone the benefit of the doubt. I will ask/reach out three times. Maybe once was bad timing and two was kind of vague. I don’t want to assume that everyone else is going to be as crystal clear as I’d like them to be. Perhaps I’m supposed to pick up on a hint, but I haven’t yet. By the third time I’ve gotten, “Thanks, but no,” I’m out. I cease all communication and when/if I see the person out and about (small town, I run into people everywhere), then they get polite greetings, responses to any questions, and that’s it. I think anything beyond that is over-the-top, encroaching into stalker territory.
Just had another thought.
You wonder why a lot of women choose not to be straight, direct, and explicit. The ambiguity of their responses confuses you.
But why don’t you just ask them for clarification? “Are you interested in me?” “Do you think I’m attractive?” “When you say you can’t make it, does that mean you don’t want to see me or that you really can’t make it?”
If a guy doesn’t express his confusion, how are women supposed to know? Are they supposed to be able to read your mind? If you never ask these questions, is it really her fault that you’re confused?
Before you get angry, I’m just offering this to show that the communication gray areas are a two-way street. At work, if a colleague or a supervisor told you something vague or ambiguous, it would be a no-brainer to seek clarification. But things are different when it comes to dating. For both sexes.
I think that this is true. Some men think that their wishes override a woman’s, in any circumstance, so even if they can tell that she’s not interested, they don’t care. Or they think that just being around a man will change a woman’s mind.
On the one hand, I cannot stand it when women won’t just be straight up (I’m a woman). You don’t have to be a bitch about it, but you do have to own it if you won’t tell a man no.
On the other hand (I should change my user name to Tevya… ) I have never ever ever had a man say, “Ok, well, have a good night” when I clearly, explicitily and politely turn him down. It’s always at least several more minutes of bullshit. In fact, I can’t think of a single time that a man has approached me that he took my answer with grace.
Never? That seems odd. You would think at least one person would maybe walk away and talk to the next person in the line (who will then reject him due to being offended at being a second choice).
How are you defining “grace” here? Seems to me that by mere virtue of having just gotten shot down, one loses at least a bit of one’s apparent composure right there.
What do those “at least several more minutes of bullshit” involve, exactly? Requests to clarify what he did wrong in his approach? Requests that you clarify that if the rejection is personal or impersonal (is there something about him specifically you dislike or is it something about your situation that makes his approach unwelcome? sorts of questions)? Him getting into an angry shouting match and making an ass of himself?
You’ve honestly never been rejected?
Are you afraid of rejection in all areas of life or just romantic ones?
No. I seriously do not ask people out unless I am absolutely, written-in-stone, infallibly certain that they like me too. There have been an unfortunate number of instances where I find out long after I’m over the guy, that he was into me as well, but neither of us had the cajones to make a move. Opportunity wasted! One that immediately comes to mind was a boy who I was unbearably enamoured with freshman and sophomore year, but never put the moves on even though I was pretty dang sure he liked me. I figured, hey, if he were into me as much as I think he is, he’d have asked me out already, yeah? So fast forward to me being over it, and admitting to a friend one day how much I was into this guy. Her response was pretty much, “Well no shit, you were. He was madly into you too, and the whole universe knew it. Nobody has been able to figure out why you two didn’t just bone already.”
I’m a little taken aback, and some weeks later ask another friend, “Hey, was it obvious all this time that I was into SoAndSo?” And I’m again met with laughter. “Yes, you two were so obviously smitten by each other, it was borderline sickening.” Turns out he ended up being too intimidated by me, and I ended up being too discouraged by his lack of asking me out. So here’s this big obvious thing that I didn’t act on because there was a grain of doubt.
Just romantic ones. I dislike failure as much as the next gal, but I’ve never avoided anything for fear of not succeeding. Only when it comes to boys will I not try unless I know for a fact that I will succeed. It’s a fairly shitty and ridiculous way to be, and typing it out makes me feel even sillier about it all, but here we are. I suppose as a dame, I’m used to being approached, and then picking what I like. And in the rare instance I come across someone I like who hasn’t already made a move on me first, I’m usually sure he likes me back, so I go for it. But if there is a single shadow of a thread of a doubt, I am pure chickenshit, and nothing ever happens.
Seriously, typing that out made me feel pretty lame.
Seriously. Off the top of my head, the guy in the park in New Orleans who asked for my number. “I’m sorry, no.” He followed me (Come on! Please? Do you live around here?) for another five minutes. The guy at a party at my house who was allowed to sleep there by my roommate because he was too drunk to drive who wouldn’t take no when I told him he could NOT sleep in my bed with me. Guy I worked with who asked me out and I said, “That’s very sweet, but I’m not interested” who stood there and asked me why not why not why not. The guy this last weekend at a bar when I was out with friends. “Sorry, I’m not here to meet men, I’m just here to hang with my friends.” Who stood there and kept talking and talking and talking until I said “I’m going to get back to my friends now” and turned away from him. Guy one year on New Years Eve asked me to dance. “No thanks. I’m just going to hang with my friends.” Come on, it’s just a dance blah blah blah.
Hell, the first time this happened was in 7th grade! Guy asked me to be his girlfriend. Wouldn’t drop it as we were walking down the hall to class. Begging and begging.
It’s like when you get telemarketed and you say no thank you and the caller persists and persists. It’s annoying. It’s disrespectful.