There seem to be two related aspects to this.
My belief is that homosexuality is wrong. Therefore I wouldn’t use the word innocents. I couldn’t in all honesty.
How I choose to express my opinion on the matter. Would I for example incite hatred against homosexuals (no) or would I defend the right to teach the Biblical position with regard to the issue (yes)?
Do you believe I have the right to hold these positions?
Legal? Of course. Moral? No. You’re causing suffering to people who have done no harm, for no sensible reason. You are, quite simply, voluntarily making the world worse. I’ve never understood why anyone does that.
Okay, your position seems pretty clear, priceguy.
One question: am I causing sufferring and making the world worse by giving my views on this board?
bodwood, could you see yourself viewing homosexuality in the same way that I view gambling? Something that you feel is “wrong” and a “sin,” but something that you understand that other people that you like and respect and consider “good” (like my aunt, who gambles) could not consider wrong?
Could you imagine voting for the rights of homosexuals, based on the notion that just because you feel it is “wrong,” it doesn’t mean that those who feel differently should be denied to enjoy rights or certain things? (I don’t like gambling, but I don’t wish to ban it so that nobody else can enjoy it.) Could you see yourself teaching your kids that while you feel homosexuality is “wrong,” that other people—other good people—view it differently and they are still good people, trying their best to do right in this world? And for this reason, it’s wrong to deny such people their rights? Could you see yourself getting to that point?
Yep. Can you get to giving a sensible answer to the question “why” now?
Less than you would by doing so in almost any other forum, but yes. By promoting discussion on the subject through representation of the other side, you’re probably bettering the world in the long run, but holding the position you hold is just, well… evil, for want of a better word.
You seem to think that I should leave you alone and respect your “rights” to believe what you believe. Would you leave someone alone if they preached the subjugation of women, fascist dictatorship, female genital mutilation, forced weddings, child weddings, or mass murder based on their beliefs?
Evil? Well, there’s a nice twist.
If you think I’m evil, then what should be done with me?
Nothing in particular. Why do you ask?
Would you accept promotion of the things I mentioned due to beliefs?
Sheesh, could someone just come over here and smack me the next time I write one of my little novellas? I don’t know why I let myself think there’s ever any point to it.
I don’t understand that first bit at all, so no comment.
But yes, I can write that you’re telling me that I’m wrong, because that’s exactly what you’re doing. I’m not sure if you’ve picked up on this, because I haven’t mentioned it very often on these message boards, but I’m a homosexual. If you announce that you believe that homosexuality is wrong, then you’re telling everyone that you believe I’m wrong.
You simply can’t distance yourself from the issue, especially if you call yourself a man of principles. At least show me the respect of acknowledging that you’re judging me. Don’t say, “Hey, don’t look at me. It’s God who’s judging you.” I’ve got my own relationship with God, and we’ve reached a detante over the whole homo business.
That’s the bit that’s relevant to this thread: we have to take this kind of talk personally.
“Not least” because it is unnatural? What are the other reasons?
Look, I’m honestly not just being belligerent. I’m not trying to tell anyone what to think. I’m not telling anyone to change his religious beliefs. I’m not telling anyone to go screw himself.
All I want is to know that if someone is saying that I’m wrong for being a homosexual, and is teaching his children that he believes that homosexuality is wrong, then he can explain why.
I believe that lying is wrong, because it hurts people. I believe that being cowardly is wrong, because it’s selfish. I used to believe that being homosexual was wrong. I spent years trying to come up with a reason for this, and I came up with nothing. If you can say that I am not an “innocent,” then I want to know what it was that I did. All I’ve heard so far is that it goes against what’s written, and that it’s “unnatural.” I won’t deny that it’s unconventional, that it’s uncommom, and yes, even that it’s difficult. But that doesn’t equal “wrong.”
The Bible does say that it’s wrong – if that’s good enough for you, then that’s your answer. End of discussion.
It wasn’t good enough for me, and in all honesty, I don’t think it’s good enough for anyone else to base their moral system on the writings in a book – any book – unless that moral system makes sense to them. If for whatever reason the Bible said “Thou Shalt Kill Indiscriminately,” or “Thou Shalt Do Whatever Feels Good,” I like to think that I would know better.
PG, I don’t support any of the things you listed. But in the case of some of them at least, I’d have to say that those who preached them should be subject to the weight of the law. I hope you’re not suggesting that people who believe homosexuality is wrong and speak out to that effect should be similarly subject.
Sol, what can I add? You’ve said it all for me.
This IS something that all Christians, at any rate, should think through and decide their position on. I’ve done that; you’ve done that. We don’t agree. I don’t see that as a particular problem, although in terms of education, it will cause more debates. But then I’m not on any school board; neither am I a public figure, so the likelihood is small that my sphere of influence will extend much beyond my family.
I have strong opinions (not unique round here), and many of them seem to be of a minority nature. So, discussing them in a forum like this is something I find quite enervating.
I already hoped so, and that wasn’t the question. Would you support a person’s right to preach those things, based on his or her beliefs? Would you let them stand unopposed?
That’s how change starts. You can decide if you’ll use your sphere of influence, no matter how small, to make the world better for people, or if you’ll just maintain the status quo and be satisfied with not making it worse.
Be grateful for your family, your wife, and your child or children. Some of us are still not allowed to have those things.
Wow. Just wow.
I admit that on this topic, my position falls somewhere between bodswood’s point of view and the position yosemite is encouraging him to adopt. Truth be told, it’s closer to bodswood’s, but has nothing to do with religion, as I am an atheist. It’s more about the ick factor. And my intolerant attitude has certainly been reinforced by the ravings of militant gays on this board. (Yes, out of petty spite. Hey, I’m only human.)
But holy shit, those quotes above hit my worldview like a punch in the gut. The fog is beginning to lift and mine eyes are starting to clear.
Kudos to you both, matt_mcl and SolGrundy. Your eloquence is breathtaking.
Okay, first, let’s clarify three words. When you say “homosexuality is wrong,” you really mean, “homosexual acts are wrong,” right? Because otherwise, your position is completely unsupported by the Bible.
Second, when you say “homosexual[ acts are] unnatural,” what the hell do you mean by “unnatural”? Please don’t just give a synonym; I want you to confront the evidence that animals in the wild perform homosexual acts all the time. I’d also like you to confront the fact that animals in the wild never debate their sexuality, much less on a messageboard. Explain how referring to homosexual acts as unnatural is either true or morally relevant.
Third, and this is just a nitpick,
I’m not sure that word “enervating” means what you think it means.
Sure, you can teach your kids that gay people are wrong, just as I can teach my kids that Jews are evil, or that Christians are a bunch of ignorant hatemongers. No law can stop either of us. That doesn’t change the fact that by doing so, we’re making this world we live in a worse place.
Daniel
Daniel
As a Christian, I’ve never understood the whole homosexuality (or homosexual acts) is/are wrong thing as a basis for opposing the rights of homosexuals. Even if a person has balls enough to isolate someone else’s sins and ignore their own, Jesus teaches that God causes the sun to shine on good men and evil men alike. People who look down on homosexuals while holding themselves to be morally superior remind me of the story Jesus tells about people who take the best seats at weddings. They will be embarrassed in front of everyone when the host tells them they have to move to the back to make room for other guests. Instead, the legalists should be assuming that they themselves are condemned above all others. After all, they use the law to measure with, and according to Jesus, the same means by which they measure will be used to measure them. Anyone who has eaten a shellfish or worn a polyester blend has committed an abomination in the eyes of God. Personally, I would fear invoking Gpd’s law against my fellow man. I think it’s rather like pissing in a hurricane.
Regardless of the general idiocy of claiming something that happens in nature all the damn time to be unnatural, bodswood, do you understand that there are things in the universe besides what happens inside your own head? Why do you start arguments, and then justify all your positions by talking about your “feelings”? You did this in the evolution thread too - it was enough to “feel” a certain way, and you expected everyone to take that as some sort of argument. News flash: no one gives a crap how you, or anyone else, “feels”. Only in your own head is it enough for you to “feel” a certain way, and act with no other thought.
Don’t get me wrong - how you feel is very nice, but the minute you start using your “feelings” to try to determine what rights others should have, you’re an asshole. I have my own feelings about what’s wrong and right, as does everyone, and if you weren’t a moron, you’d see that having everyone go around imposing their feelings on others makes for a pretty crappy world for everyone.
Once again, it’s very nice that you have certain feelings, and I don’t try to convince people that their feelings are wrong, since how you feel is irrelevant to me. If you try to use those feelings as a justification for limiting any of my rights, then we have troubles. Laws are made on the basis of more than “feelings”, because as you don’t seem to understand, other folks have different feelings from yours, and their feelings are just as relevant! Lots of liberal Christians are ok with gay people, and a number of Christian churches perform gay marriage. So your statement that being gay is unbiblical is clearly only, once again, your own “feelings” about the Bible. I don’t understand how gay people manage to be Christian, but they’ve worked it out, as we can see by Mr. Grundy’s example. So make whatever claims you like about the Bible; the rest of us will still believe that (1) in a secular society, the claims of any religion are irrelevant and (2) you’re clearly wrong, since so many Christians disagree with you.
And likewise, it shows why so many of your ilk are so bound and determined to claim that being gay is a choice, even though science and our own human experience ought to tell us otherwise. After all, while I’m very happy being queer, I sure as fuck wouldn’t have chosen the harder path, and very few other people would have either. But then again, I’m using science and logic here, and you’ve made it clear that science and logic are only useful when they reinforce your feelings.
Trust me, I don’t consider you a dangerous person. More of an idiot, with mild undercurrents of “asshole”. And I consider you an egotist because of how convinced you seem to be that everyone else cares so much about your feelings. But don’t worry, I don’t consider you dangerous at all.
Does it happen that someone is quite solidly monosexual, and suddenly switches teams? No. Any more questions?
Ok, I’ll humor you a little. Those people who were straight for years and years, and suddenly went gay? Yeah, they were attracted to men all along, and were either faking their way through the straight world, or bisexual.
Why do you rely so heavily on what you “could certainly imagine” and so loosely on what you can see around you? I mean, seriously - I can imagine all sorts of things. Right now, I’m at work, but I’m imagining that Goran Visnjic and Adrien Brody are wrestling naked on my floor. Does that mean it’s going to happen? Unfortunately, no. Can you imagine someone suddenly switching teams? Sure. Does it happen? Not really. I mean, could you go gay if you tried really hard? You know, work at it until you were attracted to men, and really wanted to have some hot gay sex? If not, then why do you think the rest of us did?
Anyway, bodswood, congrats. You’ve illustrated quite clearly that the people who disagree with me often do it with no attention to reason or, indeed, anything going on outside of their own heads. Now, I know people who are still coming to terms with gay rights, and yet manage to be pretty solidly reasonable about it. So I haven’t quite moved into spectrum’s camp yet. But suddenly I’m feeling a lot less sympathy for the anti-gay crowd.
Wow, you’ve really learned the Disingenious Fundamentalist Debating Tactic of ignoring questions posed to you and only picking on one little thing in a respodnent’s post, haven’t you?
If you won’t answer simple questions posed to you, then you’re not worth the effort it takes to type a reply.
And yet, you do.
Regards,
Shodan
Wow, whatya know – a thread containing gay-bashing and general right-wing evilness, and here comes Shodan, defender of all that’s wrong in the world. Right on time.
Yes.
What am I guilty of?
There is little to no difference between opposing gay equality and inciting hatred of homosexuals – one is just a delayed reaction form of the other. And frankly, by teaching your daughter to hate gay people as you do, you ARE inciting hatred against homosexuals.
And don’t confuse what you think the Biblical position is with “the Biblical position.” Your position is merely your opinion, your interpretation, and nothing more.