Wondering why you got killed by scum is a scum tell…
Johnny Bravo, the town cop, has been killed
it is now Day 2; Day 2 will continue for 48 hours
Damn.
And I was only two days from retirement.
Don’t worry, the rest of us will be joining you soon.
Say what? I’m going to chalk this down to the scum tactic of ‘the offense is the best defense’. Nicely done, posting this just before Nightfall, so that everyone gets to spend 24 hours thinking this over without me having the chance to reply. But I think you’ve overplayed your hand, and revealed yourself as scum in the process. So:
vote Mosier
The big thing that happened Yesterday was Johnny’s claim. The big discussion that we had, was whether his claim was legit or not. You asserted that 1) **Johnny’s **claim was ‘the worst possible move’ from the point of view of town’; and 2) making a false claim would have been a great strategy for Scum. Those two assertions make **Johnny **look like scum. For me to question your thinking about the central issue of Yesterday is not to ‘steer the discussion away from anything productive’ but to look at the key question that is to be asked, which is ‘is Johnny’s claim legit’.
In the end, your logic does not hold up, and we now know that Johnny’s claim was legit.
To suggest that I hounded you about your late vote, is to misrepresent my point. I did not care when you voted, I cared what had changed your mind. You ended up saying that it was because time had passed by and there had not been a counter claim - which I said was fair enough. Of course, even after that (post #47) you still maintained that Johnny’s move had been ‘the worst possible move’. Now that’s what I would think of as ‘steering the discussion away from anything productive’ - I mean, what purpose could such a statement possibly have? Even if you’re right, why bring that up?
If you find my post #44 disingenuous - please point out where I’m wrong, where I’m clearly seeing things that aren’t there. If you don’t find it helpful, do better. All that you’ve done so far has been to cast doubt upon Johnny, by 1) saying his claim was bad from the point of view of Town and 2) that it would make great sense for Scum to make a claim like his. Both of those claims made **Johnny **look like possible scum - and neither of them was well supported.
Let’s start this day off right.http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16155313&postcount=54
Curse you! Beaten to the punch due to iPhone limitations!
We’ll see what the others think. I have a feeling you’re gonna fry, scum.
Well, shit, if all you’re going to do is taunt me, I should warn you: I have a black belt in taunting.
Perhaps you should just address some of my points against you, though (see, I’m steering you towards doing something productive here!)
Yes, when not on phone. Can smell scum even when driving!
If “the offense is the best defense” is a scum tactic, why did your very first post do absolutely nothing except cast suspicion on literally every other player?
I stand by my position that the cop claiming first thing day 1 was the worst possible move. He sacrificed himself in a 1 for 1 trade, when we had absolutely no leads on who the other scum was and we only need 1 wrong lynch to lose. There was everything to gain by waiting, and nothing to gain by jumping the gun. If he waited, a scum false claiming cop might have given us more information, or we might have lynched your scummy partner without Johnny exposing himself. Now we’re likely to lose. The fact that Johnny turned out to be the actual cop doesn’t make it a better move on his part, and doesn’t negate my logic. You saying it does, doesn’t make it so.
Everyone knows that’s not true. I never “changed my mind” regarding Johnny. I said I was going to wait for more information before casting my vote, and that’s exactly what I did. And you DID hound me on my late vote. It’s pretty much the only thing you talked about the last half of the day.
At the end of the day, when there wasn’t any time left for actual scum hunting.
I didn’t bring it up. YOU did, while demanding that I explain my reasoning for voting late. The last two posts to address this statement I made are both *your *posts. So answer this…why are you so goddamn determined to rehash this argument over and over? I thought it was a bad move, I explained why, and you disagree. Why didn’t it end there?
I didn’t accuse of being wrong. I accused you of trying to fling mud and hope it sticks. There was nothing productive in that post. You said “from my perspective, you’re all scummy!” while using about 500 more words than necessary.
I think I made a reasonable argument for the possibility that Johnny could have been false claiming. And, I think scum were more than happy to trade with the cop.
If you don’t agree, then ask yourself this question. Do you really think town is in a better position today than we were yesterday? We’re still lynch or lose (with a worse ratio. Yesterday was 2/6 and today is 1/4), but now we have no cop. No reasonable person could say we’re better off now, but Johnny basically guaranteed we’d be in this situation by claiming yesterday. You’re saying it was a good move, and you just won’t let it go, as if this one little issue is what the game hinges on. It doesn’t!
What post are you talking about? Number 31? Number 41? How do you mean ‘very first post’?
There is obviously something to gain by claiming right off the bat - you avoid having to counterclaim and fighting an uphill battle convincing people. I mean, there’s a discussion to be had here about the pros and cons of Johnny’s move perhaps but you’re so willfully ignoring obvious things to be considered here that I don’t think you’re serious about that discussion.
Might, might. We might also have killed Johnny because we did not believe him counter-claiming a false cop-claim. Or just because he got unlucky on the first day, when there is often little to go on. Again, you’re ignoring obvious scenarios here.
Me saying it does not make it so, but me showing step-by-step where your logic falls apart does.
First you did not vote for Septimus, then you did - it’s reasonable to ask you what changed in the mean time. You say it’s that time elapsed without a counter-claim, and I’m fine with that, like I said. If I addressed it in more than one post, it’s because it took you a long time to come up with that answer. But it’s by no means ‘the only thing * talked about the last half of the day’. After I voted for Septimus in post #44, I wrote two posts, numbers #46and #53. In #46 I do ask you again ‘what changed for you between post 33 where you’re reluctant to vote Septimus, and post 42 where you end up voting for him anyway’, but I also ask about why you think scum claiming cop is a good strategy for scum. In post #53, I again address the issue of the false scum claim and the merits of Johnny’s claim. That’s about 90 per cent of that post - all I say about the timing of your vote is “Fair enough - I see that point.” How on earth is that ‘hounding’?
Because I thought that it was scummy to be second guessing Johnny’s move, a move that had already been made and could not be undone anyway. You were basically saying ‘what Johnny did made no sense for Town, but a lot of sense for Scum’, and you were doing so on the basis of reasoning that does not hold up. That, to me, looks like you’re going for a situation early in Day 1 where people might start questioning Johnny’s claim and perhaps start a little bandwagon against him. Unfortunately for you, people did not take your bait so you gave up on the plan and voted for Septimus anyway. But yeah, if someone claims cop and someone else starts coming up with some flawed logic that implies this claim might be a false one, you’re damn right I’ll bring that up.
Meh. What have you done that is so much better? What efforts did you make to be hunting the second scum? Nothing, is what - instead you’re accusing me on grounds that I questioned your scum tactics.
Comparing yesterday to today is not what we should be doing. Of course we’re worse off, but we might have been worser off if **Johnny **had not claimed. When we lost the doctor, we knew that we’d lose someone during the night. Yesterday, there were four of us, today there’s three, that was always going to happen. If one of those three had still been a cop, that would have improved our situation but only marginally - the cop probably would not have more information, or if he did he might not convince us. And if **Johnny **had not claimed, there’s still the possibility that he might have gotten miss-lynched during D1 or night-killed during N2.
Again, the big alternative scenario that you’re ignoring here but that is a major part of why **Johnny **did the right thing, is the possibility of a miss-lynch during D1 and a kill during N2. If we had not killed **Septimus **but, let’s say, me, we’d now be looking at a 2 v 2 situation. You and **Septimus **would be two smiling mother-fuckers, posting "Hi, we’re **Mosier **and Septimus, we’re scum, and we’re both voting for Enderw24. Then you get a tie, and a night-kill, and game-over.
Now this is not the first time this has been pointed out. Enderw24 made this point in post #51, **Johnny **made it in post #52, and I made it again, unoriginally so, in post #53. And yet you claim in post #70: “I stand by my position that the cop claiming first thing day 1 was the worst possible move.”
At this point I think I’d just like to hear what Enderw24 and Mahaloth think, I’ve made my point is clear enough. You keep repeating things that are false, you’re ignoring obvious counter arguments made by 3 out of the 5 people in the game other than you, and then when people point that out you’re like “OMG you’re hounding me” and “you keep coming back to this unimportant point”. It is important, and it keeps coming back because you’re not listening.
Wall’o text. Scum! Get him!
Vote: svejk
I have zero idea. It’s a coin toss for me, between Mosier and Svejk. I don’t get the “scum spat” vibe; the game is too small for that kind of tactic. Heck, I’ll flip a coin.
Vote Mosier
It was a die, not a coin toss. 1-3 meant Mosier. 4-6 meant Svejk. It landed on 3.
I have a lean, but it’s nothing I can quantify at the moment. I want to read through the thread again.
In the meantime, I want to throw something out there. This actually isn’t a 100% lynch or lose situation. Should we tie today we survive the night with 2-1 on the players. That means toMorrow would be the LyoL situation and we could eek out one more Day’s worth of clues through a stall.
I’m not necessary advocating that option, just saying it’s a possibility.
That’s actually not a bad idea. It’ll make our ratio tomorrow better.
True, it will make *your *ratio better - but it will make *ours *worse. Now you’re facing three town, tomorrow it will only be two.
Enderw24, it certainly is a possibility to force a tie if you’re unsure, but I’m not sure how much time will help you, how much more information will be provided for instance by the night-kill. I’m definitely not unvoting Mosier.
Do you really not see why trying to find scum among 3 people would be better than trying to find scum among 4 people?
I suppose you have a point there, I must admit I had not thought of that. But then there’s also the downside that you have less brainpower to do the thinking and figure things out - so in that sense I’d rather have three town hunting scum than two, and generally speaking 2v1 is a worse ratio than 3v1. In the circumstances, I don’t think a tie will help us much because I don’t think the scum night kill will make our job any easier (IOW I don’t think **Mosier **will kill me tonight and solve the mystery of whether I’m scum or not). I suppose there is still a possibility that I’m all wrong about Mosier and that in fact it’s **Mahaloth **or Enderw24 that are scum, and if either of them bit the dust that possibility would be ruled out. And more time might lead to more clues and info to base a vote off of, there’s that too. Personally, I’m pretty sure about **Mosier **being scum, and other people might feel differently, and I could see it if for instance **Enderw **wanted to force a tie by voting for me.
So I’ve read through the thread again.
Vote Švejk
His posts from yesterDay pinged me. I didn’t say anything then because there’d be no point. We were voting for Septimus. I wanted to see what else would happen.
Part of it, I think, isn’t the “wall of text” per se. It’s that it’s been my experience scum will often be too helpful and too involved in games. Scum have an incentive to stay active in the game and I’ve seen numerous times that excitement translates to throwing information at us in an attempt to show how helpful they can be, without actually coming to a conclusion.
One of the cases in point is post #44, which has already been harped on by other players. But Švejk outlines a case on every single player but comes to no conclusion other than it’s possible any of us could be scummy. Ayup. We could. But that doesn’t help anything other than for him to be able to point to it later and say “see what I wrote? I was against him all along!”
On the flip side, I disagree with most of what Mosier has said this game, but it hasn’t pinged me. I’m reading it as a genuine disagreement on viewpoints on the best way to play the game. I think Town can disagree with one another and still work together.
Meanwhile, while Švejk and I tend to agree…there’s something I just find off about the posts. So that’s who I’ve placed my vote with.
Well fuck. That’s really too bad - and I hate it that you can’t say much about your vote than that there’s something ‘just off’ about my posts.
As for post #44, the only one that’s mentioned it is Mosier, for obvious reasons. It’s not as though anyone else has brought it up. I can see why that post could be suspicious, but at the same time I’d point out that in it, I don’t question Johnny’s logic, so there’s not a case against ‘every single player’ - also, with regard to you and to Mahaloth, all I did was point out that neither of you had made your justifications very clear, which is definitely true. I did that to get a conversation started, to find out what people were thinking, not to build a case. Not much that I wrote in there really forms a solid foundation for a case against either you or Mahaloth.
As for the ‘wall of text’ thing - yeah, my posts are long because I want to be complete and thorough and address a lot of things. I think it’s the best way to play this game and I don’t think it should be held against me; I would not hold it against anyone or see it as a scum tell - quite the opposite: scum don’t write a lot because the more they write, the easier it is for them to slip up and accidentally reveal something. I’ll note that **Mosier **has not responded to any of my points made against him in post #71. How is that not more damning than anything I did in this game?
I’m not sure what else I can say to convince people that I’m town. Ender’s vote has bought us some time (assuming that nothing changes) and I think the ball’s in his court now: how do you want to use the extra time? What else (if anything) do you want to know?