PriceGuy, when I said that gender is the part you can’t see, but know is there, I pretty much meant that other people, as well as me, would know it’s there. Unless you’re doing a lot of tap-dancing around your own gender, i.e., someone who is externally a woman, but internally a man, it will be apparent to everyone around them. Sure, people have had to (and still do) cover up their true identity due to society’s inability to accept gender “mis-assignment”, if you will, but when you see a man who is really a woman inside, I think it is quite apparent to everyone around them. Are there people that are truly bi-gendered? I guess I’ve never heard it put that way (assuming that bi-gendered is different than bi-sexual). Is it possible?
You are correct, I didn’t read all the other posts before posting my comment, sorry.
I also now see that part of the question not contained in the original post is whether I would still be friends with my best friend if he propositioned me sexually. It’s hard to say without actually being in that situation, but I’d like to think I would still want to be his friend. I wouldn’t be willing to have sex with him, since I’m not attracted to him phsyically, but that doesn’t mean I would “dump” him.
For what it’s worth, I also have a number of female friends with whom I am very close and to whom I am not sexually attracted. I think your question, as posed, is really independent of gender. Anytime you have a friend that you are not attracted to, for whatever reason, it is likely to become difficult if that friend suddenly tells you they are attracted to you. I have had a couple of close female friends tell me that they were attracted to me, a feeling I could not reciprocate. In one case, the situation ended in tears and I never spoke to the woman again. In the other case, we remained close friends (she ended up marrying somebody else and is very happy).
Instead of phrasing it as a gender or sexual orientation based issue, why not simply ask whether you would dump a friend who expressed sexual interest in you if you are not sexually interested in them?
Regards,
Barry
I don’t agree. Any transsexuals (or is it transgendereds?) around here? What was it like growing up? Could anyone else spot that you were in the wrong body?
If you’re referring to me saying that I don’t have a strong gender identity, I’m not calling myself bi-gendered. I have a man’s body and I can’t say I dislike it. I’ve never felt like I’m in the wrong body or anything. It’s just that I can take it or leave it. I would very much like to be able to switch back and forth for a couple of months before making my final decision.
I’ve never understood people saying they “feel” like a man or “feel” like a woman. I’m not belittling the experience, but it means next to nothing to me personally.
I still don’t think you’ve read closely enough. That’s not the question. Ignore the use of the word “dump” in the original post, it was obviously a bad choice.
The question, re-phrased, is this: If a very good, deeply loved male friend expressed romantic interest in you, a straight male, why would you reject the idea of a relationship based on his gender?
I don’t consider someone who won’t sleep with members of both sexes “shallow.” I can see where a bi-sexual person wouldn’t be able to understand that, but a homosexual person won’t sleep with people from the opposite sex, either. You are in the minority and it doesn’t make the rest of us shallow by any stretch of the imagination. I’m also not attracted to young guys, fat guys, smelly guys…nothing wrong with that! I’m glad you’re bi… but the rest of us can’t be faulted for how we are. We is who we is.
Priceguy:
Dear Priceguy:
I met someone wonderful. Easy to talk to, funny, smart, truly excellent company, the bestest friend I’ve ever had or could imagine having. When we’re together nothing else matters, you know? Except that he wants to do sexual things with me. I do things with him because it seems important to him, but I’m pretty icked out about it and it makes me feel squirmy and gicky and I’m starting to get mad because he doesn’t notice or care how he’s making me feel. I don’t get it – if he’s horny why can’t he just jack off? I guess it’s mostly my fault because I haven’t told him how much I don’t like it, and at first it seemed like such a shallow thing to let get in the way of us being together, but now it’s getting in between us anyway.
Got between us. 'Twas a long long time ago and I miss him sometimes anyway.
I’m sorry, sex with a guy is like…I dunno, like having someone lick the insides of your nostrils when you’ve got a head cold, and then they want you to reciprocate. Takes all kinds to make a world, I guess, huh? Can’t help it – I just can’t go there and I think it would be profoundly dishonest to be other than, umm, straightforward, about that.
Good question, by the way.
PriceGuy said, “The question, re-phrased, is this: If a very good, deeply loved male friend expressed romantic interest in you, a straight male, why would you reject the idea of a relationship based on his gender?”
The answer, a clearly as I can state it, is: Because I’m not gay. And I’m not bi-. That’s the difference between gay, straight and bi-. Am I grossed out by it? No. Would I maintain the friendship? Yes, if it was possible. Would I sleep with someone of the same sex because they were attracted to me? Probably not.
Again, the base assumption is loaded and is assuming that if two straight men like to be with each other then the are thinking of each other in romantic terms. What you keep missing is the concept that the two people may not feel romantic toward each other, even though they enjoy each other’s company.
It’s not shallow. If the one person isn’t interested, he isn’t interested. It happens even in opposite relationships – sometimes a man and a woman, both straight, are great friends but do not want a romantic or sexual relationship.
The “all people are bisexual” assumption is flawed, since it is read to mean “all people would like to have sex with the same gender.” This just isn’t so. Also, the assumption merely says that all people have bisexual tendencies, but the strength of those tendencies can be of varying degrees (and I would argue that >not< all people have bisexual tendencies, though some may have them but refuse to admit it).
The point is that many straight men do not want to have sex with other men, either because they aren’t bisexual, they won’t admit their bisexual, or they don’t want to act on their bisexual urges.
What is shallow, however, is assuming that any friendship has to lead to sex. Sounds like Billy Crystal in “When Harry Met Sally.”
I stand by my last post. I don’t see any difference between asking this question and phrasing it thusly:
“If a very good, deeply loved friend to whom you were not physically attracted expressed romantic interest in you, why would you reject the idea of a relationship based on his or her not being attractive to you?”
Attraction is attraction, and if it isn’t there I’m not going to want to have a sexual relationship with somebody. The lack of attraction could be because of gender, but it could also be for any of a number of other reasons.
When you phrase it in terms of gender and sexual orientation, you make it sound like there is something “wrong” or at least inexplicable with somebody not wanting to have sex with a person to whome they are not attracted. And that is because you are limiting it to one specific case. Your question would only be valid if you added that the “straight male” in question actually was physically attracted to the maile friend who expressed romantic interest in him. Then, the question is why would somebody dump a person to whom they were physically attracted, simply because they were the same gender.
I’m not going to have sex with somebody I don’t find attractive. So far, I’ve never been attracted to somebody of the same sex, and therefore wouldn’t consider having sex with them. And I’ve also not been attracted to many people of the opposite gender, and wouldn’t consider having sex with them, either. If there ever came a day when I found myself physically attracted to another man, well, let’s just say I’ll burn that bridge when I come to it…
Barry
Back in the seventies, when we recorded TV programs using a sophisticated molecular system, our brains, it was commonly taught that there were no differences between the genders, other than “body shape”. (The implications with respect to homosexuality, which priceguy understands were not taught. “Common knowledge” was that it was a choice.)
Any parent of both genders can tell you that that theory was a complete and total crock. My wife and I had twin girls, a few months after adopting a newborn boy. We didn’t have time to treat them differently, we couldn’t get out much, and having recently moved, we didn’t have many visitors. The boys and girls played differently from the moment they could play. When we did make it to my sister-in-laws, our boy immediately started playing with the matchbox cars. The girls never paid any attention to them. Large motor skill seems to be more prevalent in boys, fine motor skill in girls, even though let’s face it, they were all tiny.
Now, my wife and I are about as gay as funerals, and we both satisfy many of the gender stereotypes. I orient spatially, I am much better at parking the car, I take spectator sports too seriously, the list goes on. My wife likes flowers, baking, knitting, can only go someplace she has been before, the list goes on. We both share some traits that are “supposed” to be gender specific, but surprisingly few really.
In fact, I think hobbies demonstrate gender differences most clearly. Both men and women ski, but ski instructors will tell you that they learn it differently. Boys want to go fast, girls want to do it well. How many female carpenters (as a hobby) do you know? How many male knitters? There are some, but the difference is eye opening.
In my profession, programming, the guys are much more likely to take their jobs too seriously. I’ve only worked with two women, in 14 years, who considered more than 40 hours the norm, most say, sorry, I’ve got a life. I would be interested to know if it is the other way around in nursing. In physics (university), the women all put in 60-80 hour weeks like the guys, which last through the reproductive years, might be one reason there are so few female Ph. D’s in physics. (Something like 5%) Who is it that spends the most time with the kids? Rarely the guy, although the military often makes an interesting exception to this. When the guy is not stationed away from the family for six months, they bend over backwards to get the parents with the kids.
I think gender differences are fairly large, even if nebulous and full of exceptions. I think it was thing that makes finding a “soul mate” so hard. You need someone you like tremendously, sexually attractive, and yet complements many of your own traits. I’ve often wondered if it is harder for homosexuals to find a compatible complement than heterosexuals. I’ve also wondered if that is why in so many homosexual couples, one seems to adopt more male gender stereotypes, and another more female.
This thread is making my head hurt. No offense, Priceguy, but if you can’t work out what constitutes gender differences from observing the world around you, I hardly think a message board is going to help.
Ditto that, Jjimm.
I happen to think that each of us has a template in our brain, either genetic or conditioned (or both), for the erotic relationship to another person, unless there’s something abnormal and we can only relate sexually to people’s underwear or the Berlin Wall. Whatever it consists of, it’s there, and there’s little that can be done about it.
Have you ever mopped a disgustingly filthy floor? You know how the water in the bucket smells after that? Do you think you’d like the taste of it? Leaving aside the salutary aspects, do you think you’d enjoy the flavor of warm, fragrant mopwater? No, considering that the very smell of it makes you dry heave, the chances are that you wouldn’t like the flavor. What if a company made a mopwater-flavored soft drink, nutritionally identical to a regular soft drink, but with the delicious taste of mopwater? Would you drink it? Why not? You drink orange soda, don’t you? Root beer? Ginger ale? Why not Mop Soda? Are you shallow? Or is a subjective preference for sweet, savory beverages over mopwatery foulness an integral and unchangeable part of who you are?
What you’re describing is love. It’s extremely unlikely to occur between to straight males. We don’t even think in terms of the rest of our lives, when it comes to other guys. Either they’re someone we want to hang out with, or they’re not.
There’s no “dumping” involved. That presupposes a romantic relationship which, under the terms you defined, can’t exist. The guys are straight. Therefore, at best, they’re friends.
Your whole premise is flawed, and it makes me wonder if you aren’t trying to understand why a guy with whom you thought you had a relationship “dumped” you. If that’s the case, it’s basically the for the same reason that cow wouldn’t understand it if you brought her flowers. She’d just eat them, because she’d have no more idea you had romantic feelings for her than the guy did. The “relationship” just doesn’t exist, in their worlds.
I’m trying here, I really am. What I object to is that you insist that if I do not say that I’d date the girl, that i am basing that just on her gender. I don’t see how you can determine how I make decisions on who I’m attracted to, since I have no clue myself. I am simply not attracted to all sorts of people. So far, as much as I’d like to be bi, not one of the people I’ve been romantically attracted to has been female. I think its just worked out that way. Not one of the people I’ve been romantically attracted to has been blonde either, and I’m not degrading myself for being shallow that way.
So my answer is no. I’d reject the idea of a relationship based on not being attracted to her. If I was attracted to her, I wouldn’t reject the relationship. I’m assuming I wouldn’t be attracted to her based on past pattern of the people I’m attracted to. But if I was stuck to pattern I wouldn’t be dating my current SO either.
Sorry if that doens’t make logical sense, but love and lust and attraction and people in general are not ruled by logic. Just as it doesn’t make sense not to be attracted to everyone who could be good for you, it doesn’t make sense to be attracted to people who are bad for you. Sometimes people just are. There’s a huge amount of biological wiring that just is and people follow regardless of logic. To make things difficult, we are just beginning to study this stuff, so its still largely guess work. For added complication, everyone is different.
OK, Priceguy: I have read every post in this thread, including all your responses to them. I believe you have been suddenly and unexpectedly confronted with some feelings you weren’t prepared to deal with.
While the people responding to your questions have tried to be kind and helpful, there’s a limit to what can be gleaned from a message board.
I would suggest that you contact a qualified counselor, or meet with an IRL support group. You seem very confused about your sexual orientation, and are trying to rationalize this to the point that the world is wrong for not seeing things your way, or not seeing things as you would like them to be.
Good luck.
I would be happy to have a sexual relationship with anyone I found sexually attractive and who found me sexually attractive, if we “klicked” together. That illusive “klick” is hard to define, but would be caused be shared interests, enjoyment of each others company …
I do not require the gender or birth-sex of a partner to be pre-specified. Now strangely enough I have never found a male person sexually attractive, and so for now I am a heterosexual. Now if some time in the future I met a male person whom I found sexually attractive, I may want to have sex with them, but if they don’t find me sexually attractive in return, I would not have sex with them, no matter how much we “klicked”. If he resiprocated my lust, and we “klicked” then all’s well and dandy, I would have no problem with a relationship with that person any more than I would have problems with a similar relationship with a woman. There is no shallowness in finding some people sexually attractive and others not, such feelings are just human nature. Shallowness occurs when someone accepts or turns down someone for issues not based on mutual attraction (such as he isn’t ritch enough, she doesn’t like my friends …)
My 10 cents worth, Bippy
could it be becausehe’s a frickin’ Guy?
BTW, it is possible for two heterosexual men to love each other. It’s called “friendship.”
Actually, If I could be a girl, not a fat girl, not a too skinny girl, but a cute girl. Not necessarily beautiful, but attractive in an athletic kind of way. I would be so attracted to other girls. Oh, I could tease the guys, give them a show. Kissing other girls. Oil wrestling other girls. Bump and grind dancing with other girls. I think it would be awesome in a girls body.
I want to be a cute, slutty looking, athletic, lesbian. Except for periods, and pms. Oh yes, and bladder infections.
I could ask, if physical attraction is so unimportant why should it matter if this warm loving relationship becomes sexual?
How is it shallow for someone not to want to have sex with someone he loves but doesn’t lust after? Lust is a part of sex. What the hell is wrong with lust?
Isn’t the other guy in your scenario making romantic advances to the first guy because he’s physically attracted to him? Or why not stick to the long conversations?
If you refuse to fuck someone because they don’t turn you on, for whatever reason, you’re not shallow. You’re reasonable. If you refuse to have the long conversations etc. just because they don’t turn you on, you’re shallow.