Straight people, please answer me this

1 Differences in brain structure. You brought this up yourself, but only to dismiss it. I think you should reconsider that. The brain the most important physical aspect of who we are, not, as you would have it, “body shape”.

2 Pheremones. I’m surprised no one has mentioned this yet.

3 In straight people, the drive to reproduce compels us to seek out members of the opposite sex. Of course some people are gay, and some straight people don’t want children, but on the whole this is a very powerful force.

and finally

4 The soul. Of course I am opening a can of worms just by mentioning this. Does the soul even exist? Is there any way we can define it, other than to say that it is that aspect of a human being that is not physically tangible? If it does exist, do the souls of men and woman differ in some fashion?

I confess I don’t know the answer to any of these questions. But I think it would be foolish to simply dismiss them.

I suspect we have an unbridgeable gap here. I definitely “feel” that I am a man, and not a woman, but my experience of this feeling is entirely internal to me. I don’t think I could explain it to you any more than I could explain color to a person blind from birth.

Priceguy, I think that you’re seeing this from an angle that most of the other folks here aren’t EVER going to be able to understand (not better, not worse, just different). You seem to be what I would term ‘gender blind’. I myself am approaching that state… let me see if I can create a comparison here.

Most people have different ‘non-negotiables’ for their partners. Some folks have to have someone with ambition, some folks need to have a person they can respect, someone who’s proud. Some people need a ‘successful’ partner (while others can live together, happily, as starving artists for decades) My non-negotiable is intelligence. A person can be kind, funny and gorgeous, but unless there is a reasonably functional brain in that pretty head of theirs, I WILL NEVER BE ATTRACTED TO THEM. It is part of what attracts me to that person. It is part of their personality.

Now, in the two seperate physical sexes, there are differences - most notably hormones - that affect personality. If you think hormones level differences don’t make a difference in a person’s personality - ask a woman with PMS. You get to view multiple personalities in the same person, so to speak, simply due to chemical changes that are entirely due to that person’s gender. Men and women are both predisposed to produce certain amounts of hormones - some men produce more estrogen than others, some women produce more testosterone than others, and so we get people who have the opposing gender’s stereotypical personality traits - aggressiveness, submissive behavior, interior decorating. You get the idea.

In these personality traits that are generally far more prevalent in one sex than another, many people may have their ‘non-negotiables’ in terms of the traits they want and need in a partner. Sure, there may be a man out there that a hypothetical, relatively straight guy might be VERY interested if his personality were in a woman’s body - but if this guy is relatively picky and doesn’t ‘klick’* with many people in the first place, he might never meet this person. If he’s not expecting this person, as a man, to be compatible with him, the relationship might never proceed to the point where they would discover a romantic attraction (since sex might not be first in either one’s mind)

Does this help at all?

*Thanks Bippy - I use this word in the same manner myself, hope you don’t mind me borrowing it here.

I would just like to say, for some people intimacy is more important than sexual-attraction. Sexual-attraction can even build because of intimacy. That’s why there are old couples who are still making love. Yes, I’m sure there are men out their that wouldn’t let the fact that they can’t have sex with the woman they love faze them. A lot of it also might have to do with how the woman feels about herself. Will she constantly dwell on the fact that she can’t perform sexually? Will she, (as well as the man), make bedtime so depressing that neither one of them could ever be happy at night? I’m sure there are some people out there who would find a way to make the situation bring them even closer together.

Of course you could probably counter with; “well can’t you be intimate with a friend who happens to be the same sex as you?” The fact is, it’s not that “black and white”.

On another topic:

Let’s say a man falls in love with a female who used to be a man. Would it be wrong or unusual for that man to loose his attraction to the female, once he finds out she used to be a man? Let’s say the deceit wasn’t an issue, (which it most certainly would be). I don’t think it would be wrong or unusual. I personally couldn’t be with a female who was once a man. Even if there was attraction before hand, and everything was so perfectly changed/altered that I wouldn’t have noticed she used to be a he to begin with. The reason is; now I know. This was information that came late in the game, but I still know and have factored it in. I would like to point out that I am NOT a homophobe. Not even close to one. I admire some men, and the way they look. I see beauty in men. I can look at a man naked and not cringe, or look away in disgust… but when it comes down to what sex I want to have a physical relationship, the answer is %100 female. You could say that the man, is now, a female, but I would still see that person as a man, (perhaps others see her as a full-fledged female, and that’s is FINE). You might think that this would HAVE to be a guideline I set for myself, because of our society’s influence. I am telling you, it isn’t. The best example I can give is this: You can meet a woman, fall in love, and have a sexual relationship with her… until you find out she’s your adopted sister. Even if you can be “tricked” at first, doesn’t mean you will, (or CAN), compromise you BUILT IN guidelines.

Say a man talked to a woman online, (or on the phone), for a year. The two of them ‘get’ each other, you both “click”! they’ve laughed with each other, cried with each other, had online/phone sex with each other. The conversations are as intimate as they can be. Then they meet and he finds out she is actually a he. It’s really the same thing to me.

I’m not alone, but that’s not to say there aren’t people out there who feel the same way I do. Everyone has different lines drawn. That’s life.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Priceguy
OK, so you’re a straight male. You meet someone wonderful. Easy to talk to, funny, smart, gentle, kind and understanding. The kind of person you want to live the rest of your life with.[/qoute]

See, the thing is, if that person is male, this last statement will not apply to us straights. It’s that simple.

That won’t happen, either, assuming you are describing a romantic relation, which will not happen between two heterosexual men.

First of all: everyone who thinks I’m gay, have just been burned by a man etc etc, please lay off it. As I’ve stated before, I’ve never even French kissed a man. I’ve had a crush on a guy once, and that was eight or nine years ago now. I’m currently in a long-term committed relationship with a woman. I’m asking out of totally honest curiosity. I’m not confused about my sexual orientation; I’ve long known that I’ll fuck anyone I like.

RealityChuck:

No, I haven’t missed that. I do have platonic friends, you know. What I was wondering is why the possibility is ruled out solely due to gender.

Jjimm:

If it’s so clear, why can’t the differences be pointed out? And as I have stated before, I am aware of psychological differences between the genders. But they are not iron-clad. Some men think and act more like women and vice versa. Since there’s no evidence (that I know of) of totally different wiring in males and females, I can’t quite see why this would be the all-exclusive factor. For example, can you think of one question (or five, or ten) that you could pose to anyone at all, and based on their answer ascertain their gender with 100% success?

Weird_Al_Einstein:

Good answer. I think we’re getting close to the truth now.

Venoma:

Actually, it does. And I do believe hormones affect personality. Yep, certainly, no question about it, no ifs, buts or whatevers.

MyFootsZZZ:

I know I’m in a minority of one here, but it wouldn’t bother me. If we were both OK with it (and provided it were legal; we don’t need the hassle of being criminals) and weren’t planning to have children (I know the webbed fingers thing is an exaggeration, but why risk it?) I’d continue the affair.

About the guy who changed sex or the guy who claimed he was a woman online… I’m sorry, I guess I’m beyond help. I really cannot see why this would be a problem. Especially the sex-changer. He even has the body of a woman now, and you didn’t even notice before he told you. I just can’t see it.

Most of the other people who replied don’t seem to have read the entire thread. I have already said that for the people for whom sex and romantic love are inextricably connected, I have got an answer.

So, to sum up:

  1. For some, romantic love and sex are fused together. Fine. I didn’t know that was so widespread.
  2. For others, it’s probably the pheromones. Fine.
  3. For others yet, they probably could be attracted to someone of the same sex, and it just hasn’t happened yet. Fine; this is basically my own situation.

Just realised that a disclaimer is needed: The question “do you have a vagina?” is obviously disallowed.

Honestly PriceGuy, I am not deliberately trying to be obtuse here…I’ve waded through all the posts on this thread and I still don’t understand how you can say someone is shallow for not being attracted to such and such a person. May I ask you a question? Are you attracted to everyone you meet?? And if not, then WHY NOT? If you’re not attracted to someone does that make you shallow? No, it just means you’re not feeling it for whatever reason. I have a hard time believing you are attracted to everyone you come in contact with.

Women don’t make me feel that feeling that I get when I’m in the company of men. I’m not speaking of attraction here. I’m talking about a feeling. It’s a visceral reaction really. With women, for me, there is a feeling of being the same. With men there is a feeling of being different. Maybe it’s the “otherness” (yes, my own word…lol) of men I find sexually attractive? I think blind people are either straight, bi-sexual, or gay right?? How can you say a blind straight man that doesn’t want to sleep with his possibly gay friend is shallow? He’s not basing his decision on the way his friend looks…

Of course I’m not. It’s just that I see physical (sexual) attraction and mental (romantic) attraction as different things. For many people, I’ve learned, they’re mutually necessary.

Also, it is quite common for people who are only romantically interested in physically attractive people to be considered shallow. I just wanted to know people’s opinions about why it’s shallow to not date fat women, but not shallow to not date women at all.

Very interesting question. I’m more and more leaning towards Weird_Al_Einstein’s pheromone explanation. Seriously, Shana, that’s the most thought-provoking thing I’ve heard in this thread, and probably this week. No jokes. I’m going to have to think long and hard about this.

This is controversial. As far as research validates the hypothesis, it seems to work for women only.

Look, male/female is not just a physical characteristic. I have no idea where you got that from. There is the difference of one whole chromosome, which affects a ton of things include hormones, brain structure, sexual organs, and psychology.

I understand there is a whole spectrum. I am comparing the typical case on both sides. Don’t bother with exceptions.

I know. But is it externally detectable? Are these supposedly world-shaking differences obvious to an observer that is oblivious to the subject’s physical characteristics and voice? As I’ve said before, while gender may be very important to the person him- or herself, to anyone else it’s just physical. Can someone please point out the difference? I’m really not trying to be difficult, but people keep mentioning the differences but not explaining what they are. Tell me like I’m a 4-year-old. What are the externally obvious non-physical differences between the genders?

Shana, “otherness” is a perfectly valid word (it appears several times in my thesis) and it’s very appropriate to what you’re describing.

Venoma, if I understand what you’re saying correctly, I don’t think I agree. Those personality traits that are more common to women than men - I don’t think they form the basis for my attraction to women. I’m not attracted to “the female personality” although I can be attracted to a particular woman’s personality.

Priceguy, you’re asking for this to be explained to you as if you were a four-year-old, when it’s too overwhelmingly complex for a four-year-old to understand. Scientists don’t even fully understand sexual orientation, although they may someday in the future. I think you will have to accept that this is a mystery for now.

It’s not sexual orientation I want explained. I want to know what externally detectable non-physical differences there are between the genders. Everyone seems to take them for granted. I want just one hard obvious difference pointed out to me.

Priceguy: Let me try this again by asking you this question:

“If a very good, deeply loved friend (of either gender) to whom you were not physically attracted expressed romantic interest in you, would you reject the idea of a relationship based on the fact that were not physically attracted to that person?”

If your answer is no, than all I can say is that gender is one of many factors for us “straight males” that determines whether or not somebody is attractive. I have close friends of both genders, and if I’m not physically attracted to them (whether because of their gender, their weight, the shape of their face, the way they smell, what have you), I’m not going to want to have a physical relationship with them. Why are you so hung up on gender?

If your answer is yes, then all I can say is that you are a better person than the majority of people I know. I’ve had good friends that I really wished I could be attracted to, since we were so good together and had so much in common, but I was just unable to get over the fact that I simply wasn’t attracted to them physically, and I need there to be some physical attraction in order for my motor to get revving on all cylinders.

Bottom line: If you are hardwired in such a way that you can enjoy having sex with somebody you don’t actually find sexy, I say more power to you! But most of us simply don’t work that way.

Barry

Godzillatemple: Please. We’ve been through this. Several times. Once again (I hope for the final time): people for whom romantic love and sexual attraction are inextricably connected have nothing to prove to me. I have been given their answer, it’s a good and valid answer. I’m happy. My question has been answered.

You take it for granted that sex and romantic love are mutually necessary; can’t have one without the other (or at least romantic love is impossible without sex). I don’t. It’s that simple.

Nor do I, PriceGuy. But I have to get “the vibe” for sexual contact. And I don’t get that from women. Or fat, smelly guys. It has nothing to do with what I “want”. It just is. It’s not easily described, but everyone knows it when they get it. Now, if you are wired that you get the “vibe” from both men and women, good for you! But it’s not a conscious effort on your part. You’re just built that way. And you’re in the minority. Waaaaay in the minority.

I wonder…
If you consider yourself ‘strait’ what would you feel if you found that you were falling deeply in love with someone of the same sex, you even find yourself fantasizing about them, it makes you feel a little uncomfortable but the love is still very strong.
Do you,

  1. Reassess yourself, and start to think of yourself as ‘a bit bisexual’

  2. Repress the feelings, and run awway from the one you are in love with

  3. Consider yourself still ‘straight’ but secretly express your love to the other person.

  4. Say ‘what will be, will be’ and runa way with the other person

or other…

Cheers, Bippy

Me too. But I don’t have to get it for romantic love. That’s my point. I can have romantic love without sex. I prefer to have it with sex, it’s easier to fall in love with someone I’m physically attracted too, but it’s not necessary.

Bippy: Since I don’t consider myself straight, I cannot answer your questions. I have been aware and comfortable with my attraction to men since I was 14 or 15, and I cannot remember ever having fantasies that I went around feeling uncomfortable about.

Since I have trouble believing in the ironclad concepts of gay and straight I prefer not to label myself, but if I had to, I’d call myself bisexual, leaning towards straight.

I’m a little confused myself after reading this thread, but in a way it seems that Priceguy is asking why sexual orientation plays a role in our decisions about who is suitable for a romantic relationship (defined here as a loving friendship that includes sexual attraction). I think that sexual orientation is a matter of biology, not choice. I also think it sets us up, subconsciously, with a whole set of characteristics we find attractive in a romantic partner; physical characteristics are the most obvious, but behavioral characteristics are just as important - those are the “vibes,” that “klick,” that people are referring to here.

Let’s take the example of an online relationship, since physical appearance isn’t an issue (assuming no web cams, exchanging of pics, etc.). Say I start chatting with someone who becomes a wonderful friend. I can talk to them about anything, they make me laugh, they soothe my pain, I can’t wait to talk with them at the end of the day, I miss them badly when they aren’t online… all the sorts of feelings I would have for someone I was falling in love with IRL. The feeling appears to be mutual, so we finally make arrangements to meet in person. I’m nervous, excited, butterflies in the stomach and all that, waiting for that friend to appear…

Now, it so happens that I’m a straight female. And when the friend walks in the door and turns out to be another woman, I’m floored, and greatly disappointed. You see, I never asked what her sex was - I assumed it, based on the way she talked to me in chat. Her style of expression was just like the style I find in men that I like, so I made the assumption that she was male based upon a completely non-physical trait. When she turns out not to be, the romantic attraction just switches off for me, because I’m straight. The chemistry just doesn’t exist for me in the absence of body form I’m wired to be attracted to physically - they are part and parcel of the whole package that is me, and I can’t change it the way I might change my shoes.

That identification of a person’s sex from behavior doesn’t just apply in potentially romantic situations, either - I think it happens all the time, because we are constantly evaluating those behavioral cues, consciously or not. A male friend of mine once decided to play a joke on me by IM’ing me as a female (female ID, saying he was a female). Now, I didn’t realize it was him right away, but I could tell almost immediately that it wasn’t in fact a woman, because the way this individual talked to me was distinctly NOT feminine… I didn’t have to see a face to know it.

I have also talked with other people who either fooled others or found themselves fooled by mis-represented gender online (for whatever reason). If they were fooling others and were caught, it was because they slipped up by saying something, or behaving in a certain way, that wouldn’t be expected of the gender they were emulating. If they themselves were fooled, it was because the other person did such a good job of behaving like a member of the sex the fooled person was attracted to.

Of course there are plenty of people in this world whose behavior is not masculine or feminine, per se. In that case, we might rely more upon physical cues to figure out what gender a person perceives themselves to be - and that would come from their choice of clothing, physical mannerisms (like the style of walking), etc.

Does that make any sense?

On preview, I see that Priceguy is making a point about romantic love without sex. I think this is a matter of different definitions. Romantic love, to me, includes the possibility of sex (or thoughts of sex), whether it happens or not. If you love someone deeply but sex (the act, or thoughts thereof) never enters the picture, then it is simply a friendship, albeit a very special one.

What would be an example of an “externally detectable non-physical difference”? I think it is sexual orientation you want explained. What else are we talking about here?

I have a spaces, in my life for other people to fill. Some of those spaces are for erotic relationships. In order for another person to fit into one of these spaces, that person must have “womanhood” as an essential characteristic of her being.

It’s the “essential” part I think you’re having trouble with here. Are you asking “What does it take for a person to contain the essence of womanhood or manhood for the purposes of erotic relationships?” Because that’s rather simple:

In order for a person to contain the essence of womanhood, and therefore be a possible candidate for an erotic relationship with me, I must believe that she is a woman. When you look at it that way, it becomes clear that other people’s “gender” is something we project onto them, rather than something innate to themselves. Likewise, our own “gender” is something we project onto the image of ourselves, rather than something innate to ourselves.

Why do we do this? I think I can speak for most other people in the world when I say “because we like it”. We realize it seems silly to you. But we don’t really care.:stuck_out_tongue: :wink: