Ignoring the “bloviating”, yes it is.
Sure, slavery has nothing to do with Black charity workers in America…
…who just magicked all that wealth into the USA from outside without any relation to the past US situation, I’\m sure…
Because of cause the end of the Civil War reset all the economic injustices of slavery and wiped the slate clean for all that followed after…
Not remotely. One is based on uncomfortable truths about the origins of White wealth, and one is based hipocrisy.
The mere throwing of a big gala is not the performative ass-kissing the PoCs in my cites are complaining about, though. Charities can still do that sort of thing without expecting their PoC employees to be the house Negros at the event.
Demonizing success certainly is a strategy someone could go with.
I mean, that’s not what I said at all, but you probably think that reading comprehension is a tool of white supremacy, too.
What I said was that slavery has nothing to do with the wealth of most wealthy people in modern day America, which is true.
If your point is that some immigrants in the late 1800s made money by proving goods and services to former slaveholders, that’s certainly true, but they also made money by proving goods and services to people who were not slaveholders - including former slaves.
Again, that’s not what I said. Is responding to my posts instead of whatever delusional fantasy you imagined oppressive, too?
What about wealth that isn’t tainted by the Original Sin of Whiteness?
(I think it’s pretty clear that there’s nothing Liberal about this kind of racialized nonsense, so I’ll reiterate that this is the wrong thread for this brand of idiocy).
In other words:
It appears that this is exactly what (some of us) are looking for.
I repeat: this shit is illiberal.
OK, first of all, if we’re going to discuss this, we need a term for the people groveling to the donors that doesn’t implicitly assume that the grovelers are minorities. What term would you prefer to use instead?
Oh, so now there IS a job that white people can’t do? /s (hopefully that doesn’t need to be stated, but…)
Best typo of the month (so far).
Not a typo. Nutpicking - finding some obscure no name and using person that to make some partisan point.
vs calling out theft and rapine.
I’ll let you know when you display any.
“Anything” means “the wealth of most wealthy people in modern day America”, now, apparently. Yeah, I definitely didn’t read that.
And also, not true.
Modern America is based off the back of slavery and theft. Most wealth is based off of it, and that means most wealthy people owe their wealth to it. “Oh, Zuckerberg’s dad was just a dentist! Oh, Gate’s dad was just a lawyer!”
No, it’s not.
So you weren’t saying wealth created after 1866 couldn’t be related to pre-existing economic injustice suffered by PoCs in the USA? What was your point, then?
Someone’s got an overactive imagination about what people think - like the way you seem to imagine PoC charity professionals are driven by hate. Paranoia getting to you?
When you find the wealth that isn’t based off intergenerational theft, let me know and I’ll happily tell you.
Skeptical like these yahoos,
No, more like this yahoo:
So your strategy is to force people to feel guilty? It won’t work. It’ll never work. You can rally people against an outside enemy, but you can’t rally them against themselves.
You know me. You know where I come from, and I’m sure you believe I should feel guilty about some things. But you are never going to be the one to convince me, because from you, it’s an attack - and the normal human response to being attacked is to fight back. Same thing about these white American moderates. If demand that they feel bad about themselves, their perfectly reasonable response will be to tell you to go fuck yourself. You push someone, they’ll push back.
If you want to get people on your side, stop tryin to get them to feel guilty, even if you believe they are guilty. Appeal to their principles, their empathy, their compassion, their sense of justice. Don’t tell them that they’re the bad guys, even if they are. Let them come to that conclusion on their own.
I feel, and I don’t think I’m way out on a limb on this one, that thanking volunteers and donors is generally a polite thing to do. I certainly wouldn’t want that to be my job. Fortunately, if I wanted to work for a charity, there are plenty of jobs that don’t involve that.
It apparently sometimes does, according to that last cite. But it’s certainly not the only or even main strategy I’d recommend to PoCs in charity work. Lots of ways to approach donors other than trying to guilt trip them.
This is where we differ - White fragility isn’t reasonable, it’s just weaponized offense.
Not seeing how those are ultimately different from guilt, just with fancier words.
And I’m with you here, they don’t have to be overt in raising the spectre of donor complicity. PoCs don’t have to get all up in donors’ faces.
But they don’t have to perform gratitude like Sambos either. There’s a middle ground that @Spice_Weasel wasn’t allowing for.
Should white fundraisers be more obsqueous than POC fundraisers?
Your implication that all positive virtues derive from guilt seems a very harsh view of human nature. I know you to be a principled, compassionate person with a strong sense of justice. What are you guilty of?
No, I don’t think so.
But what PoC fundraisers report is that they are expected to bear a disproportionate share of that - most often being expected to represent or stand in for their perceived communities in ways White workers are not. You can look at something like the last Race To lead report (pdf) to see numbers on the disparity.
I have a harsh view, yes. And humans keep bearing it out.
Lots of things, no doubt. Being a Pollyanna about human nature is not one of them.
But if you mean does guilt drive my compassion, probably a little, yeah. That and upbringing. And in my experience, most of the super-wealthy aren’t brought up that way (or they wouldn’t be super-wealthy)
True, we all remember how Martin Luther King Jr led the civil rights movement by berating wealthy people and telling them that their wealth was inherently oppressive.
Most wealthy people in the US didn’t make their wealth through theft and rapine. Sorry bud.
Yes, I get it, Original Sin logic. Yawn.
That would be a pretty silly point since many former slaveholders were still wealthy in the late 1800s.
But the fact that the wealth of southern landowners was based on slavery doesn’t mean that the wealth of some immigrant to California is “based on Slavery”. I’m sure you can trace some of their dollars back to a slaveholder eventually, but again, that’s Original Sin nonsense, not worthwhile analysis.
Most wealth isn’t based on “intergenerational theft” or any of the other Marxistesque buzzwords you like to throw around.
Pretty ballsy of you to call others “fragile” while you’re over here telling us that the idea of thanking people who give your charity money is mentally devastating to you. It’s hard for me to imagine more fragility than that.
And that really says everything there is to say about you.
I don’t think that @Spice_Weasel is the one who is having trouble with finding the middle ground here.
It is indeed amusing to see @Babale replying to a poster he claimed that he blocked.
I see you Babs! I know you’re looking!
I guess A Letter from Birmingham Jail was ghost-written, then. And Where Do We Go From Here certainly never said:
There are forty million poor people here, and one day we must ask the question, “Why are there forty million poor people in America?” And when you begin to ask that question, you are raising a question about the economic system, about a broader distribution of wealth. When you ask that question, you begin to question the capitalistic economy. And I’m simply saying that more and more, we’ve got to begin to ask questions about the whole society. We are called upon to help the discouraged beggars in life’s marketplace. But one day we must come to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring. It means that questions must be raised. And you see, my friends, when you deal with this you begin to ask the question, “Who owns the oil?” You begin to ask the question, “Who owns the iron ore?”
No, they just live off the benefits of previous bouts of theft and rapine.
More like looking at the very obvious bloodstains on the ledgers.
So bored - yet still going to post a lengthy reply. Not as bored as all that, it seems.
I said “pre-existing economic injustices” and “slavery and theft” not just “slavery”, and that includes the theft of all of damn California from Natives, and the exploitation of the Chinese there later.
Most wealth is. Especially the really wealthy.
Proudhon precedes Marx.
Strawman - “performing gratitude” is not the mere idea of thanking a donor.
And where did i say anything about myself? I’ve cited the people who actually do this work.
Ballsy of you to tell those hardworking people protecting their mental health is somehow, what, too much?.
Was that supposed to be some devastating rejoinder? Not seeing it.
They were the one who said performative gratitude was just part of the job and didn’t allow for PoC workers’ mental health as a concern. Not a lot of middle ground there.
Speaking of - @Spice_Weasel still hasn’t returned to answer the question about whether they still think this is White-led or not.
Maybe I missed it but I’m still not clear what exactly you mean by this. Can you provide specific examples of the sort of activities you find objectionable?