Is that also true of any liberal who compared Bush to Hitler?
The stupid liberal idea thread is thattaway. >Points<
ETA. Although I’m interested. Can you name a mainstream Democratic candidate who did this, with a citation? If so, put it in that thread.
Keith Ellison did. But I’m not really interested in having that discussion on the liberal board. I just wanted to know if you regard such a comparison as a stupid liberal idea.
Just want to qualify this as Republican politicians and not republicans in general. Also, I missed a preposition.
Sanders certainly sucks at messaging anyway and I doubt Democrats have any interest in disputing Paul’s characterization since anything that damages Sanders is good and anything that damages socialism’s reputation is irrelevant.
You can’t think for yourself?
Which explains the absence of citation. The Hon. Kieth Ellison is my representative, and is about as radical as hot dish.
If Berine gets elected, the republicans’ heads will assplode in gobs sputtering outrage. That’s genocide at work.
Dorothy Parker! How much would you pay to see her in one of these debates? That would rock.[sup]*[/sup]
Why all the fuss over the word ‘socialist’, anyway? I thought it got redefined as “someone who wants to raise the top marginal tax rate to 39.6%”. About seven years ago, I think it was.
- In her prime, obviously. I understand she’s lost a step or two recently.
Well, the Republicans have put in so much effort in recent years frantically slapping the “socialist” label on every vaguely centrist policy position they see, they shouldn’t really be surprised if the rest of the country has more or less figured out that “socialist” now just means “anything Republicans don’t agree with”.
Really?
So you mean that public schools constitute a free-market, user-pays system where the costs are covered by the people who use the service? You mean that, as a childless couple, my wife and i can opt out of having our taxes used for public schools?
The problem with socialism in America is that is attracts a whole lot of “No true Scotsman” contortionists like you, who, rather than acknowledge that there are parts of our system that operate on market principles and parts that are socialist, define any redistributive programs that you dislike as socialist, and any that you do like as non-socialist.
If polls from the last few years are any indication, that could be changing. A Pew Research Center poll (pdf) from 2011 found that more young people (ages 18-29) had a positive view of socialism than had a positive view of capitalism. Fully 49% of young people had a positive view of “socialism” while 8% had neither a positive nor negative reaction.
And that poll is based simply on the use of the word “socialism,” which is, as you correctly note, something of a “dirty word” in America, thanks in part to the historical association of socialism with authoritarian communist states, and thanks in part to people like you who do everything they can to demonize the word and eliminate all nuance and complexity from the national discourse.
If 49% of young Americans see the basic term “socialism” in a positive light, I’m willing to bet that there would be considerably more who support specific socialist proposals and policy directions. I’ve seen it myself in college students. I’ve seen some react against Obamacare using anti-socialist rhetoric that they get from people like you, but who are then interested and impressed when i explain how a single-payer health system works.
And almost a million Americans voted for Eugene Debs in the 1912 presidential election, with about the same number voting for him as a write-in candidate in the 1920 election, when he was serving a 10-year sentence in federal prison for violating the WWI Espionage Act (he spoke out against American involvement in the war).
Upton Sinclair got 38% of the vote in the California gubernatorial election of 1934, and this despite the fact that every major newspaper in the state conducted a partisan and often defamatory campaign against him, and FDR and the national Democratic Party hung him out to dry, giving him little or no public support.
As George Orwell once said about a similarly-abused epithet;
[QUOTE=George Orwell]
It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley’s broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that’s a crucial point in terms of the political debate.
It’s one thing to take America’s historical hostility to the word “socialism” and use it to your political advantage, but there is a danger of it backfiring on you if people begin to actually look at the policies themselves, and decide that some of the things you are labeling “socialist” are actually things they like and want.
I would really like to see the entire clip of the speech in which Elllison mentions the Reichstag - I’ve seen a couple of few second clips, but never the whole thing. Do you have it? Ellison was so firm in his insistence that he did NOT compare Bush to Hilter.
Reading that Daily Kos post was a really weird experience for me, because on several occasions I’ve cited Obsidian Wings for having the best analysis/writeup of the orgins of “Fifty Shades of Gray” to be found on the Web.
I had no idea they did politics, too. Smart people over there!
Tennessee Conservatives fight against religion in schools!! Okay…so it was a particular religion-Islam-that brought on this hypocritical display. Allah forbid the poor tykes should learn the origin of algebra. Gotta nip that there indoctrination crap in the bud!
The problem with Ellison’s Reichstag analogy, which he recognized and regretted in later interviews, was that the Reichstag fire was intentionally set with the purpose of discrediting the Nazi’s political enemies. He wasn’t explicitly willing to go there and therefore the analogy was poorly considered. The part that is entirely correct is the exploitation of tragedy, but I don’t believe, nor does he believe, that the Bush admin was directly responsible in the same way the Nazi’s were.
With careful management and feeding, this might have been developed into a Big Hairy Ass Deal, but after eight years, the prospects have dimmed.
Never the less! Bad, Hon. Keith Ellison (D-MN), bad! Go lay down by your water dish! (I think three servings of campaign dinner lutefisk would be the appropriate sentence.)
Hey, when they’re stupid enough to try and pass laws that cannot but be turned around to bite them square in the 'nads, I say stand aside, let 'em and invest in pop-corn futures !
It doesn’t work that way in Conseramerica. Anything that hints of Islam(even wrongly) will be stomped on, while Christian references will still be seen as “traditional”, not religious.
I’m not surprised but, I realize a good part of why people make such associations and the reason socialism is a dirty word to some extent is because of politicians, like Randy Paul, making inflammatory comments to get the right-wing base worked up into a froth. It’s because people like him play on the ignorance of the conservative base about the difference between a freely elected person who holds socialist ideas and someone who is operating in a totalitarian dictatorship.
Exploiting crap like that may well be just politics to you but to me it’s rhetoric intended to polarize and intstill fear in people, something the GOP seems to specialize in these days.