By the time I finished writing my post Evil Captor already had another one up so I will clarify that in my last post I meant the one he did at 10:32, not the 10:47 one.
As for this:
I agree if you mean purposefully denying it because you (not EC, but the person in the hyp. situation) think it will make you virtuous or pure, etc. Or did you mean in any case? I think people should wait til they’re ready and willing. But if you don’t find anyone you want to have sex with until you’re past puberty, then the perverse/unatural thing to do would be to have sex just because you’re a certain age.
When I was in high school, one of my good friends would make out with guys, give them blow jobs, do everything but have actual sex. She bragged about being a virgin, because it made her ‘pure’. Anyone see the irony in this?
Yeah, I started having sex when I was 16. Does that make me a bad person? Absolutely not. Yes I’ve slept with guys I barely know. Yes I’ve slept with close friends. Yes I’ve slept with people I love. For me, sex is a way of expressing myself.
And I’m a hell out a lot more pure than the virgin who was blowing the whole senior class…
This isn’t always the case y’know. My first time (no I wasn’t married) wasn’t painful or anything. It wasn’t that great of sex (as I have found out since) but it definately wasn’t painful or anything.
As to virgins, if they want to stay that way. All the power to them. I have had friends try to hook me up with a guy who, though he stands by his beliefs, is so desperate to get laid he’s going to pop the question to the first girl who looks at him more than twice. I’d rather have someone who wants to get married to me because he wants to spend the rest of his life with me. Not because he just wants to profess that he is no longer a virgin.
As a former virgin who felt she wouldn’t have sex till marriage, if you want to stand by that. Great. Stand by your convictions. Just don’t look down on me because I decided not to stay a virgin.
I have to go along with yosemitebabe on this one. Yes, sexually active women used to be called sluts and whores, but I haven’t seen that attitude in years except as something old fashioned and to be ridiculed. And that’s just women. How popular is it to be a male virgin these days? The culture war you’re describing is over, EC. I hate to break it to you, but you won.
As for the OP, I think he’s being more contemptuous of people who espouse virginity than they ever were of him.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Banquet Bear *
**…wow, since when was virginity a cult?
People make a big deal out of it because it is special-it’s a time of your life that once it has gone you will never get back again.**
Still fundamentally different from my viewpoint. I see people who are no longer virgins as people who have gained something valuable (sexual experience) not people who have lost something valuable.
** And in today’s society-where music video’s routinely have barely dressed girls being role models for 11 year olds singing about sex, I think that there is nothing wrong with saying ‘I saved all my purity and innocence for my wedding.’"**
Oh, please. Talk about your false dilemmas! If we don’t buy into the cult of virginity we have 11 year olds having sex? Such crap!
Frex, I’m perfectly in agreement with laws and mores that protect the very young from sexual predation by older people. It’s not because they have some special quality of sexual innocence, it’s because I agree with the notion that the parents should be able to protect their children if they want, and because I think it’s good for kids to be given the freedom to develop sexually at their own rate without older people pushing them to engage in sex. Got nothing to do with virginity being a good thing in and of itself.
Well, isn’t that “special!” , for goodness sake, where does she say she is better than you there???
This argument is disingenous, too. Very frequently the social conservatives who push abstinence strongly state that preserving virginity before marriage is proof of moral strength, or “strength of character” over those who do not. Are we supposed to ignore this when evaluating claims that saving one’s virginity until marriage is something special?
**If you think that “society’s so f*cked up is because people have hang ups about sex.”, can I suggest that few of today’s problems in society are caused by the worlds virgins, and if you insist they do, I would demand a cite… **
You have a full mastery of the art of debating by evading the point. When did I say that virgins were responsible for “today’s problems in society”? Jeebus …
C’mon. I said specifically that I wasn’t against VIRGINITY itself. Basically, I’m indifferent as to when or how you have sex … that’s your decision. I just don’t think there’s anything special about virginity.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yosemitebabe * So why single out the concept of virginity as so unnatural when we do a jillion “unnatural” things all day?
OK, that’s fair enough. Saying something is “unnatural” isn’t by itself a sound basis on which to condemn it. But you know, denying sex isn’t the same thing as denying facial hair. When you hit puberty and your sexual parts come online, you are primed to have sex, and if you are female, have children. The fascination young people have with sex is hormonally driven – you don’t need any stupid-ass media to make it happen. Sexual feelings are like a great river flowing through the psyche. Dam it up, and it tends to express itself in other ways, sometimes not healthy ways. Frex, certain Catholic preists. Frex, Muslim suicide bombers.
I would argue that denying something as powerful and deep as the sexual impulse is MUCH MUCH MUCH more than "unnatural’ in the sense that not growing a beard is unnatural. I would argue that past a certain point, it’s psychologically unhealthy.
** What do you want them to do?**
As I have already said, I don’t care what they do. It’s their choice. Just don’t expect me to respect them for being virgins, because I don’t.
Furt said, “As night fell, the Dopers sat in a circle around the fire, arguing about who had the biggest, baddest wang. Tuckerfan and Samarm talked about the pain they’d inflicted. Jack Batty said something about congress. The fire slowly died as others spoke of length and of girth, of flexibility and staying power, of the glorious wonders that lay coiled and quiescent in their underwear, boastful tales of sexual wonder drifting off into the ether.
Furt lurked silently, slowly stirring the coals with his penis.”
OH. My. God. That’s hilarious!
You’re really not helping your argument by suggesting that celibacy is the reason for child molestation or terrorism. Not one whit.
And you’re not gaining any points with the “natural” argument either. You do know that somce girls are hitting puberty, beginning to menstruate and capable of bearing children at age 10, right? Are you really holding forth that 10 year old girls should be having sex and children? Do you really think that’s a good idea just because it’s natural and possible?
You still haven’t suggested why or how choosing not to act upon hormonal/natural/psychological/physical impulses is a bad thing, or that it’s unhealthy. As previous posters have pointed out with a number of pointed examples, we control our impulses all the time. We don’t defecate wherever we please. We don’t eat the chocolate cake. We don’t punch the ass who cuts us off and steals our parking place. We don’t jump on whatever person sexually excites us.
You’re putting forth the theory, you’re couching it in psychological health terms. How about a cite of any study or psychological theory that says that abstaining from sex beyond the beginning of puberty – your assertion – is psychologically unhealthy or damaging?
I won’t hold my breath.
We’re free of the animal imperative to propagate the species through as much reproduction as possible. We benefit from the ability to pair-bond in a fashion rarely seen in any other species, pair-bonding having strong biological benefits because of its emotional benefits.
There is no proof do that those who choose to wait to engage in sex until a point which they have chosen (as opposed to the point which you, Evil Captor, think appropriate) are denying their desires as opposed to simply controlling themselves and redirecting those impulses in other means.
What do you say about those who don’t want to wait, but have no luck in procuring a partner. They’re not having sex either, are they unnatural? What about those who are in relationships who don’t have sex for a period of time for any number of reasons? Are they unnatural, too?
It’s an argument fraught with so many logical holes as to be void on its face.
And I find it interesting that so many are so willing to suggest psychological deviance in those who choose celibacy but would never accept the POV that there’s just as strong an argument for deviance in the opposite behaviour, too. This kind of judgmental attitude is pretty sickening.
I don’t know what’s more pathetic and patently disgusting: the presumption that this is the standard experience for all women during their first experience with intercourse, or the concept that having sex with women can be appropriately referred to as “doing” them. Though I’ve got to say that use of such phrasing certainly sheds light on a (particularly immature, misogynistic, self-indulgent) overall perspective about sex which illuminates a lot of comments in this thread.
Here I go, posting before I’ve read the whole thread, but one-side statements like the following really piss me off.
I would suggest simply not marrying someone with a jealousy problem. I wasn’t a virgin when I married - and neither was my husband. When I was engaged to my husband we used to hang out with another couple, the man being the boyfriend I had had before my husband (and yes, a man I had sex with) and they guys got along great (and yes, my husband was fully aware that the other man and I had had a sexual relationship) and no one was jealous. I certainly wasn’t jealous of my former boyfriend’s finacee either. We had parted amicably quite some time before, then moved on to other relationships with no illusions that we were going to get back together or that the other person was going to remain celibate for life, pining away. Maybe I just hang out with mature people who have an understanding about relationships. I certainly have never been jealous of any other of my husband’s former girlfriends, either. Certainly jealousy is a factor for some people but by no means all.
What about an STD passed on to her? You’re assuming he’s a virgin, too?
Let’s take these one at a time, shall we?
HIV/AIDS may be commonly transmitted through sex, but it’s not at all the only means of transmission. Leaving aside IV drug abuse… You are aware that there are teenagers and young adult walking the face of this earth who caught HIV from their infected mothers before birth? Blood transfusions are still a risk factor. ANY contact with blood is a risk factor - medical personal have contracted HIV while caring for HIV postive patients, no sex involved. So it is quite possible to be virgin in every sense of the word and still have HIV, and even to pass that virus on to someone else.
STD’s means “sexually transmitted diseases”, but they are often enough transmitted through other means. Syphillis and Gonnorhea are what normally come to mind, and transmission through means other than sex are rare (although it has occured - usually blood-to-blood contact during care for an infected patient). However - things like simple yeast infections can be present in the genital region in virgins as well as non-virgins. A virgin with an untreated yeast infection is quite capable of passing it on to a new and still-virgin spouse. Herpes is another one - the common cold sore virus can also infect the genitals. A lot of people pick up cold sore Herpes as kids - long before they have sex - but if they engage in oral sex with active cold sores they can pass that “STD” on to another virgin. Critters like public lice can be transmitted through dirty laundry or bedlinens - in other words, by sleeping in the wrong bed in a skanky hotel room. In other words, a lot of diseases that are commonly transmitted through sex can also be passed on through other means. Although being a virgin increases your odds of not having an STD, is does NOT gaurantee this.
pre-marital pregnancy/abortion is, unquestionably, a risk of having sexual intercourse prior to marriage. However, just because you have sex before marriage does NOT mean you will experience either of the above. I certainly didn’t. Most of my friends never did. The only close friend I have who has ever had an abortion did so twelve years after she was married! (And yes, she was still married to the same man). Responsible use of birth control goes a long way to preventing that.
Also, there’s the question of how you define “virgin”. Does that mean no penetration - which is how some folks view it - in which case oral sex does not elminate one’s virginity? (Under that definition, I know a few lesbians who are sexually active but still virgin) Or are you defining it as all sexual contact whatsoever? (In which case kissing prior to marriage may be forbidden - and there are cultures like that).
Never been a boy, although occassionally I’ve been horny.
I don’t advocate sexual activity for young teenagers. Hell, I kept my legs crossed until I was over 21. I wasn’t “saving” myself for marriage - I wasn’t planning to get married - but I was self-aware enough to know that I wasn’t ready in high school.
I don’t “dis” those who choose not to have sex - whether remaining virgin or simply going through a celibate phase. I think people have lost sight of the idea (if they ever had it at all) that “sexual freedom” includes the option of saying no. I do, however, think the obession some people have with “virginity” goes overboard.
Think about a few other ugly facts of life - the young girls who, through no fault of their own, have been sexually abused or raped early in life. Aside from the trauma of such an occurance, how do you think such a girl feels when she hears a lot of talk about how she should be virgin on her wedding night? That choice has been stolen from her. When I was in high school I had a couple friends who sobbed hysterically while I hugged them because this asshole had come through getting all excited about how wonderful virginity was and these poor girls got the message (intentionally or not) that they were dirty, unclean, and sluts because someone else forced sex on them. How about the girl who had sex too young, realized her mistake, and has kept her legs crossed since? (Yes, it does happen that way sometimes). Is she less pure than someone who has never made a mistake? I’ve yet to hear a promotion of pre-marital virginity that doesn’t made some rather harsh judgements about people.
Also, by portraying this issue as an either/or virgin/non-virgin situation isn’t realistic, either. One can have a sexual relationship, then go years without sex. Yet I’ve know women who, once they lose the virginity, feel compelled to continue having sex.
I’m all in favor of celibacy as an option. If you talk about voluntary restraint from sex as an option - one that can be exercised throughout life - you put a whole different slant on it, don’t you? And please don’t call is “secondary virginity” or anything like that - it’s a shitty phrase. Hell, even Catholic holy order don’t insist on virginity - it’s a vow of celibacy.
Banquet Bear said, "People make a big deal out of it because it is special-it’s a time of your life that once it has gone you will never get back again. "
Well, I don’t know about the rest of the women here, but the first time isn’t all that great. It was quite a while until I actually enjoyed the way I always THOUGHT I’d enjoy it. It definitely gets better with time. The first time is like the first waffle…
tlw, while I would love to quote your entire post, I’ll just say Thank You! Well said!
Oh, and by the way, it appears there are a number of “big dicks” in this thread. I tend to call 'em ignorant assholes where I come from, but to each his own.
I was a virgin til the age of 26.
I am so glad of that.
Some of my friends were not virigns at age 12, and I thought they were cool and I wasn’t because of that.
Of course, I was wrong.
I had sex with 5 men, one of which was my husband.
I was used when i had sex with the 4 guys who weren’t.
If he really loves you, he’ll marry you.
If he doesn’t love you, then he’s just using your body to get off.
I know most of you don’t agree with this, but I certainly believe it.
I cannot imagine having sex with someone unless I love them and expect to be with them forever.
Thats just IMHO, though.
For what its worth, yes, theres no worries about diseases, no unwanted pregnancies, no regrets.
BTW, yes, it was painful the first time (and I waited 5 years for teh second time[different guy].
But there was no “learning to have sex” thing I went through.
It just comes naturally.
How much of the reason that it’s “painful for the virgin” the first time is due to the constant barrage of being told that it will be painful?
Is it a kind of mind-over-matter thing, where if you’re a girl who is told all her life that the first time she has sex, it’s going to hurt like hell, you believe it to the point that it does hurt like hell?
Is it one of those things that girls become so convinced of that it becomes true, like a self-fulfilling prophecy, because believing that it’s going to hurt will keep them from having sex for as long as possible?
I wonder because I didn’t have that drilled into my head, and my first time was actually really good, and the guy and his big penis never knew I was a virgin.
Anybody have any idea on that? Does it hurt because people believe it will/should? Is less attention paid to making it feel good because people believe it’s supposed to be bad the first time?
