“Darling, you know I have the utmost respect for your puny, futile beliefs” :rolleyes:
It doesn’t sound like you two are going to last. In my experience, it’s hard for athiests and Christians to stay in a loving relationship. Granted, it’s possible, just very hard.
Well, RTFirefly, I could say that my list contains your first three points, and then a couple dozen more. But I’m way picky.
I have a hard time maintaining Christian friends… much less anyone that I was supposed to be intimately sharing my life with.
I wrote that when I was still steamy about it. It came off a little harsher then I meant it to. Here’s some points:
Well, I would like if she came to her senses about it, but it’s not “all important” that she does. If it makes her happy, then so be it.
We are both pretty able to leave it be, unsaid, and most of the time it is. But when it does come up (rarely), it’s a… umm… fiery discussion.
In a way, I hope so. But then again, I am not a psychologist, and she’s a woman, so I doubt I know what’s going on in her head. I sometimes get that kinda vibe from her though.
Well, I guess the bi-polar Chrisitians have been spreading. Not Grand Rapids. More east.
I’m not trying to convert her (though that would be nice), I am just trying to get her to understand my P.O.V. Christianity is not all cut and dry, and not obviously right to everyone, and yet this is what she insists. I was just trying to get her to see that it might sound a little less then right/true to some people.
No, I wrote that when I was still a bit hotheaded. I didn’t say that to her.
Perhaps I have misstated that. I meant that I have respect for her right to believe what she wants to, not necessarily the particular belief.
I haven’t had to pretend. She knows how I feel about religion, and I refuse to attend regular church services for her (I will for special occasions), but I don’t try to stop her or anything, and if she wants to go to a church function, instead of out with me, that’s fine. She has a right to believe what she want’s, but I am not going to believe it for her.
Same here. If religion is left out of the equation, then we have all the stated criteria.
I don’t think it came off quite like that.
That’s about all the points that I think need addressing here. Going to bed now… night!
“come to her senses”…
:rolleyes:
Tsk, tsk…
I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to respect the religious beliefs of your friends, families and significant others.
I agree with Guinastasia’s above post (which managed to say a lot in one smilie). I find that athiests, including way too many of the athiests on this board, are some pretty self-righteous people, frequently referring to a belief in God as a “fairy tale” or “fantasy.”
I would never, ever be so callous toward an athiest’s ideas, even though I could not disagree with them more.
I dated a born-again Christian (though certainly not a goody-two-shoes, bland-as-white-bread one) last year and it was one of the most eye-opening experiences of my life. She was one of the most loving, compassionate, forgiving people I’ve ever met, and I left that relationship (she’s now my best friend) with a renewed respect for Christianity and a desire to get more in touch with my own spiritual side that’s led me to attend a Unitarian church that I love.
In turn, I managed to open her up to some new ideas. I’ve showed her some things about evolution that she hadn’t considered before, and we’re now in agreement on it (That evolution has happened, but it’s a mechanism of God’s design.)
Even if you can never agree with her, at least learn to freakin’ respect her. It’s rule no. 1 of any relationship, and it goes for more things than religion.
Perhaps even one would be way too many; to be fair, there are (and have been) some pretty self-righteous theists (and self-righteous holders of various opinions not directly related to religious matters). I find most of the atheists here on the board quite tolerant and understanding, it’s not at all unusual for some of them to contribute to a debate or discussion about some point of theology as if they had accepted the same axioms as the theists.
Of course, Chekmate believe’s he’s right and his GF is wrong, she believes the opposite, but he appears to dismiss that…
The hamsters put that apostrophe in there, not me.
I fear you would classify me as one of the self-righteous atheists, don’t worry though, I don’t count my “self-righteous atheism” as a religious belief, so you go right ahead and sneer.
That I can respect someone and find them to hold untenable beliefs is not in itself a difficulty for me (first and foremost, I would “judge” anyone on how they treat the ROTW).
But, what though is this “callous” of which you speak?
Can you give hypothetical examples of the callous things you avoid saying to atheists? I ask through pure interest – I can’t imagine a thing you could say on the subject that would hurt my feelings, and hey, you just might prick my conscience. Given that it will be directed to me and me only, and that I hereby implore you to do so, please do not demure, go on, give it your best shot.
MT, I don’t think there is the symmetry that you imply:
What kind of “belief” can’t be challenged? It sounds like this should have a punch-line, but there is no ha-ha.
Of course not, nobody ever does (on either side) 
.
OK slight exaggeration.
Yes, it’s a bit worrying that the girl in question seems insecure in that she won’t even listen to the other side of the debate, but it’s not as if Chekmate is exactly going to great pains to understand hers either. There’s a big** difference, IMHO, between “deeply held beliefs that I respect but strongly disagree with” and “ridiculous fairy tale delusions that she won’t wake up from”, why should she bother?
[benefit of the doubt]As others have said, she may be avoiding the issue simply because it is so contentious[/botd]
Saying “There is a god” is a belief that I can respect, though I disagree with it.
Saying “The earth is flat because it says so in the bible” is a ridiculous fairy tale delusion, and represents willful ignorance, which I cannot respect.
It sort of depends on what Chekmate’s girlfriend really thinks.
Chekmate, if you consider this woman marriageble, and want kids, keep in mind the controversy that will erupt when you try to decide how the kids will be raised.
Cessandra: I have a question.
Most christians I know (and I am one too) want their mates to be christian also.
I mean, would you like to think your husband or wife was going to hell after they died?
Did he ever ask you if you wanted to be saved or explain the gospel?
Personally, I’ve never been lucky enough yet to have ever dated a Chrsitian, much less married one.
!
Just posting to emphasize that VANILLA speaks of Christians she knows, and her own Christian beliefs.
I am a moderate Christian, and most of the Christians I know (including me) do not believe that everyone who is not Christian is going to hell.
No criticism of V. or her beliefs implied.
No disrespect to you either, Jodi, but
What exactly do you consider a christian?
Its supposed to mean someone who realizes they are a sinner, Jesus died for their sins, they accept him as their savior.
So they won’t go to Hell!
If no one goes to Hell, what did Jesus die for?
And why be a christian then?
I guess nowadays chrsitian can mean whatever one wants it ot mean, including one in name only.
I would like your thoughts on this.
What upsets me, is that he’s asking her to examine her beliefs, not for the sake of doing so, but because he seems to want her to convert to his way of thinking.
I find that offensive.
How about offer her a deal-she looks at Christianity from an outsider’s point of view…and you take a second look at Christianity?
Turnabout is fair play, after all.
Are you saying that, in order to respect her, I have to respect everything about her, all of her opinions, views, and values? I do respect her deeply as a person, and she is a good person all around. I just happen to strongly disagree on this one point.
I know that there will be controversy over the kids, and we have talked it through, over and over again, and have come to a workable, agreeable compromise about it.
When did I say that I wanted to convert her? I think that yeah, it would be nice, but if she’s happy with religion, then I’ll let it be. Whatever floats her boat. I just want her to stop judging me on my lack of it, I a was trying to get her to see where I was coming from. That maybe I wasn’t a sheep that has strayed from the path of righteousness. Maybe I did have a good reason to not believe in God.
I find it offensive that she will not even take a look at the problem from my side of the equation. I find it offensive that she will not even consider that I might be right. I find it offensive that she dismisses my opinion, out of hand, without even giving it any thought, after I have given so much thought and consideration to hers.
I was born in a Christian family. All of my family members are Chrsitians. I was raised a Christian. Trust me, I have looked at it for a second time. And a third. And a fourth. I have looked at the possiblity of it more times then I care to remember. She has never looked at the possibility of her being wrong. She refuses to look at it. She refuses to see it as a possibility.
Are you saying that, in order to respect her, I have to respect everything about her, all of her opinions, views, and values? I do respect her deeply as a person, and she is a good person all around. I just happen to strongly disagree on this one point.
I know that there will be controversy over the kids, and we have talked it through, over and over again, and have come to a workable, agreeable compromise about it.
When did I say that I wanted to convert her? I think that yeah, it would be nice, but if she’s happy with religion, then I’ll let it be. Whatever floats her boat. I just want her to stop judging me on my lack of it, I a was trying to get her to see where I was coming from. That maybe I wasn’t a sheep that has strayed from the path of righteousness. Maybe I did have a good reason to not believe in God.
I find it offensive that she will not even take a look at the problem from my side of the equation. I find it offensive that she will not even consider that I might be right. I find it offensive that she dismisses my opinion, out of hand, without even giving it any thought, after I have given so much thought and consideration to hers.
I was born in a Christian family. All of my family members are Chrsitians. I was raised a Christian. Trust me, I have looked at it for a second time. And a third. And a fourth. I have looked at the possiblity of it more times then I care to remember. She has never looked at the possibility of her being wrong. She refuses to look at it. She refuses to see it as a possibility.
Oh, gosh, you guys are so young to be so rigid. Keep in mind that the late teens/early twenties are a time of intense change and self-discovery. Things you firmly believe right this minute are going to shift, and waver, and reassert themselves in new forms as you grow into adulthood. You may have a spiritual reawakening…many teens go through a period of doubt and rejection, only to rediscover faith as they learn more about the world.
You said you have a good reason not to believe in God. Was there perhaps a single event that made you change your beliefs? I’ve had friends who rejected religion after a loss such as the death of a friend. What was the catalyst for you?
I think some of the other posters had a point…she may just not want to argue with you, partly because you have made such a study of this, and she may feel intimidated by your more expert vocabulary of debate. All she may have is faith…powerful, confusing, and not easily explained, especially when someone keeps saying “prove it”. You can’t prove it…and at 20 she’s still discovering what she believes, as you can attest.
Be prepared to do battle about this for a very long time. Ask yourself why winning is so important. Ease up and keep discovering things about yourself…it really never ends.
chekmate, I am on your side on this one. I dated a fairly fundamental Christian for three years (I’m a Pantheistic Neo-Christian myself, with an ongoing search for beliefs that ring true in my soul), and it was a stifling experience for me. We had exactly the type of conversations that you’ve related here; a perfect example of our differing belief systems was that I believed I was doing what was right for me; he knew what was right for everyone. I was open to being tolerant of his beliefs, but he kept trying to convert mine.
Long story short, you probably don’t have a future with this woman. If you do stick together, you may be shortchanging yourselves. I’m now engaged to a man who beliefs are very similar to mine, and I can’t believe how long I spun my wheels with someone who would never accept me until I changed to be like him.
This seems to me to be a largely meaningless proposal, since atheists tend to have arrived at their beliefs through careful scrutiny of previously held or indoctrinated beliefs, usually Christianity, in these sorts of discussions.
In other words, I’ll betcha Chekmate is an atheist because he already has considered Christianity…and rejected it.