Texans first, Americans second?

Great Debates
1

The Mrs. and I were recently staying at a resort where we encountered another couple, who within minutes of meeting anyone new, quickly made sure that it was known that they were Texans (an odd behavior I’d previously only noted in Harvard grads).

While that was somewhat odd, what struck the two of us, and most of the other folks we talked to later about it, was their assertion that they were Texans first, and Americans second.

When queried about what this actually meant, they both elaborated that in their minds, the good of Texas was more important than the good of the country as a whole, that Texas had a legal right to secede from the union, and that they thought that the need for secession was becoming greater and greater as of late. They based this last assertion on how Texas would be sucked down by the current recession unless they left the union.

When it was pointed out that secession hadn’t worked too well in the past, they insisted that the Texas National Guard would quickly demonstrate their loyalty to the State of Texas rather than the US by moving to help liberate the state, and that citizens of Texas would quickly enlist to do battle against any US forces sent in to prevent secession.

About this point, my basic philosophy of “don’t engage the crazy persons in rational discussion” kicked in, and I tried to move on to other topics, like “aren’t the clouds pretty? (I was told they are prettier in Texas)” and “I’ve a headache, I think I’ll go lie down now (Texans don’t need to lie down when they have headaches)”.

I initially chalked all this up to being the eccentric opinions of a couple of extreme loons, such as each state or region has. But when I related this tale to friends who’d lived in Texas for over 4 years, they replied that this sort of attitude was really quite mainstream there. Perhaps not majority opinion, but loudly voiced by at least probably 15-20% of the population, and quietly felt by probably another 20-25%.

Further queries directed at other folks that had lived in Texas at one time or another mirrored that analysis.

So what’s the real deal? Is this a mindset held by many mainstream residents of the Lone Star State? Lynn Bodoni, other Texas dopers, can you provide some more informed opinions about this? I always knew Texans were ‘different’, but are they really that different?

2

I can’t wait for elucidator to read this one.

3

Is it just me, or is this actually, literally, anti-American?

4

Those people do sound more than a bit loony, but then I spent ten years in Texas growing up and yep, Texans do seem to view themselves differently than people elsewhere. Personally I put it down to those ten years of independence – relative independence, anyway, since I think most of that time was just getting the paperwork for statehood in order but don’t tell any Texans I said so. :slight_smile:

I like Texas, but once getting away and looking back, it’s more than a little weird sometimes.

5

Interesting. I’ve lived in Texas for about 15 years and I have NEVER heard this expressed seriously. Yes, many native Texans do seem to think that Texas is probably the greatest state in the Union, but to seriously express a secession plan complete with fully developed opinions about the Nat’l Guard’s reaction - never. Granted, my experience has been limited to urban Houston and Dallas. I’m sure that you can find this type of attitude in the state, but I have yet to encounter it.

Frankly, the suggestion that as many as 45% of Texans are closet secessionists is somewhat insulting. For anyone else who weighs in, I’d be interested to hear where in the state these attitudes were encountered.

6

I want to clarify – I never heard anybody actually saying Texas should secede. But there’s something about the way Texans think of Texas that I haven’t encountered in any other state – and I’m talking California, Georgia, Louisiana, Maryland, and now Idaho. I don’t know how to describe it, except that perhaps back when the US was formed people felt similarly territorial about their states, before people started packing up and moving all the time the way we do these days.

7

I’ve read of some extremists but I’ve never personally encountered anyone who would take them seriously. I imagine they’re on par with latter-day “secessionist” movements mentioned in the “See Also” section of the linked article (Alaskan Independence Party, Second Vermont Republic). IOW, whackoes with too much time on their hands. Never, ever have I met someone who claimed to be a patriotic Texan while at the same time being anti-US.

I do introduce myself sometimes as from “Texas – you know, in the US” – or at least I did until GWB got too embarassing in national office.

OTOH, “SECEDE!” bumper stickers still seem to be popular on the roads. As well as “Native Texan” and “I wasn’t born here but I got here as fast as I could!”

I guess you could say that the grain of the idea is there, usually to be referred to in a half-joking way, not seriously for now.

8

I grew up in San Antonio and lived north of Dallas for more than ten years, and I never met a person who held that strong of an opinion regarding the sanctity of Texas.

Oh, sure, there’s a lot of joking about it, some posturing, and some ego strokes. You can find pasta shaped like the state, for heaven’s sake. But the two you talked to were total loons, and most Texans would find them tiresome, to say the least.

9

I think your opinion is biased. And that just because a war was fought, and won, by the Union doesn’t mean it’s right.

There is nothing prohibiting Secession in the Constitution of the United States. The illegality of secession was only established by Texas v. White in 1869.

My view is simple - Self determination is key. While I don’t think that any state has reasonable cause for secession, they should not be prevented from doing so. It violated the principles that founded this country and the principles of Self-Determination that this country agreed to (and had a major part in forming,) in the United Nations Charter.

10

You realize the vast majority of the people who express these opinions are expressing them with their tongues in their cheeks, correct?

I’m sure it’s annoying, but so is constantly hearing “In Ohio we have <insert favorite restaurant, grocery store, etc.>. Why aren’t there any here?” Or “In New Jersey we usually do it like <insert some sort of regional behavior>. It’s so weird the way you do it here.” Or “Why don’t they sell <insert favorite regional food or brand> here? That’s all they sell in Michigan.” Or my favorite - “No one here knows how to drive in snow!” (Hint - it’s not snow, dumbass, it’s ice, and judging from the national news clips every winter, y’all don’t do any better on ice…or snow for that matter!)

People can be annoying no matter where they’re from. I can’t imagine why you’ve fixated on those yahoos.

11

We overlapped with them at the resort for 5 days. They returned to this theme constantly. That’s a long time to keep up a ‘tongue in cheek’ schtick. And I’m a pretty good judge of BS, frankly.

And I’m certainly not fixated on them. I mention them here only because I was told by others that this attitude is more common in Texas than in other states. So I asked for input from others. Fighting ignorance, y’know?

12

Mad you have to pay people to work on your plantation?

13

In the very few times I’ve visited the lovely state of Texas I noted that if there is one thing Texans are really fucking serious about, it is being from Texas. There is a huge amount of state pride there and there is nothing necessarily wrong with that.

But still, nothing as extreme as those people. That’s just loony.

14

My opinion? I do not yet hold an opinion about whether or not their assertions are mainstream in Texas. That’s why I inquired here.

15

That’s cute. Because I’m for the rights of secession, I’m obviously for slavery, too. :rolleyes:

One can be for something, in principle, that another group supports, and not share the entirety of their world view.

If you look into the civil war, slavery was only one of the issues, although the main one by many definitions.
I do not now, nor have I ever, owned a plantation. Nor has anyone in my family, as far as I know. I’m also a northern boy, and was raised North of the Mason-Dixon line.

16

My mistake, I meant your premise, that secession hadn’t worked out well in the past. Although you are correct, that doesn’t necessarily mean it was the “correct” outcome.

While I’m staunchly pro-rights (anti-slavery, thank you 2ply), part of that is self-determination.

17

Speaking as a Texan, Todderbob, I don’t consider your hobby horse to be a welcome addition to this thread. Injecting your civil war revisionism is off-topic, not least because most Texans in my experience draw a pretty clear distinction between Texas on the one hand and the down-home-in-Dixie “South” on the other.

Not to say that slavery isn’t an ugly component of Texan history for its part, though. For instance, I believe it’s a topic of some debate among historians to what extent the Texians of 1836 were fighting abolitionist Mexico for their “rights” to own slaves.

But one way or another, it’s our history, get it? Not some Song of the South gimcrackery.

18

Well, as long as you are upfront about your views…

I am aware of the Civil War.

19

I’ve met those people! So either this is a stunning coincidence or that opinion is held by more than one pair of Texans.

(I haven’t had enough conversations with enough Texans to say whether than opinion is mainstream.)

20

The only experience I have in Texas was spending around a combined 8 hours in the Houston Airport. Based on this experience, I found the native Texans to be as much American as I but also very proud of their space faring technology.