The 17 Yr Olds Ultimatum SAGA

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
121

He knows, but he doesn’t care, and you cannot make him care. All you can do is change your own behavior.

I am glad you did not go pick him up. Did you use the Bummer Line on him?

He will not drag the family down, not if you don’t let him. So quit spending all your energy on him and concentrate on your other children.

Yes, you’re going to have sick feelings in your stomach. But until he realizes you’re not going to bail him out he won’t to change, because you will be there to rescue him.

Tell your other children that they are not to lie for him. Ever. Have your 15 yo call the landscaping boss and apologize for lying and that the 17 yo is not in jail.

Go down to the probation office TODAY.

How many days until the five weeks is up? I would focus on that day, and get ready to change the locks and pack up his stuff. So bright and early on Moving Day, it will be done and over with.

122

17 Year Old just informed me that he quit his job and is looking for another. I knew him moving in with sister was too good a thought. The sister is going to be pissed. He was supposed to move in on Oct 1.

No I forgot to use the bummer line. I was on the other phone talking to someone else at the same time.

I want to run away.

123

Go to court and have him emancipated. Then pack him a bag and kick his sorry ass out of your house.

Do you want to go through several more years of this crap, hurting yourself and him, only to have him hate and disrespect you? Or would you rather bite the bullet, suffer some temporary pain, hate and anger, so that maybe this will stop?

It’s hard, I know you want to protect and help him, but it’s not working. It won’t work. It will only ‘enable’ him to keep pulling the same shit over and over.

Don’t run away, Isabelle. Make him run away.

124

Kick. His. Ass. Out. Kick his ass out! His quitting his job is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. His pissing off his sister is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. Where he’s going to live, and how he’s going to do it, is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. You set a date for him to be out of the house, some four weeks from now. Stick to it, and kick his ass out.

125

  1. control freak! Do you think he’s an idiot? He knows he has to do the chores, there are consequences for doing them and not doing them and he knows those (there are, right?). Ask him if he wants a daily reminder or not and respect his choice.

  2. Rule #1- don’t stress yourself out over him. Do what you gotta do to make yourself at peace. If your moral inner guide says you should go pick this kid up, then PICK HIM UP and get some sleep. Just be clear that you’re picking him up for your own peace of mind than for his.

I repeat: Be sure you understand that what you’re doing is for your own peace of mind. “I need to do this to feel ok with myself” That is a valid reason for doing anything.

If you need to pay for his fireman training to feel like you’re a good mother, do it. BUT don’t expect him to act accordingly.

You’re acting out of self interest, that’s your reward,

not him becoming a fireman, him liking you, him behaving, showing you respect, none of that. It would be nice if those things happened of course, but if you anticipate or expect them, you’re setting yourself up for problems.

Feel like giving him money?

-do it.

But when you do, kiss the money and any hopes you might have for how it should be spent goodbye. If you give him $10 for lunch and you suspect he’s going to buy beer with it, you’ve already paid twice. The $10 is gone, you put it in his hands and trusted him with it; you can’t reneg on that by developing an interest in how he’s going to spend it. It’s a gift, not an investment.

So ask yourself this question before you give him money: “Can I give him this and not care about how he spends it?” If the answer is “no” then don’t give him the money, you can’t afford the cost.

126

Jodi, I know you’re a lawyer and all, so perhaps you know better than I, but can Isabelle kick out her minor child (he’s still only 17, remember)? Isn’t she legally responsible for him until his 18th birthday unless or until he’s emancipated? I don’t know where she is, but, as an example, she could get into some serious trouble doing that if she’s in Arizona, according to this site.

I think she needs to tread veeeeery carefully before she takes any such drastic action. And she should definitely check with an attorney in her state to see what consequences there would be, if any.

127

Not picking on you Jodi, but yours is a good example of advice frequently given here that’s short sighted even though it’s sound and I’ll tell y’all why:

She’s never gonna follow it.

  1. Isabelle, I’m guessing you’re of hispanic/latin descent, right? Either way(based on your prior post saying you lived at home till 22 or so), your culture dictates that kids live with their parents till married.
    Now, that’s becoming a bit americanized and is translated to “when they move out” but there’s no push to get kids out the door at age 18 like in anglo culture (speaking as if there is one anglo culture -my apologies).

In the latino culture (as if there was only one) generally one does not abandon one’s children at any age. It goes against a mother’s moral code to kick the kid out. The child is viewed as a part of her, not a discrete individual. In essence, Isabelle would consider herself a sinner to kick the kid out.

  1. Isabelle is enmeshed with this kid (sorry to put it so bluntly). To kick him out of her life would be the emotional equivalent of ripping out her liver. More acurately, it’s like they share the same vital organs, and she can’t send him away without letting her own go with him.
128

You are probably correct, SHAYNA, that since he is not technically emancipated she is responsible for his welfare, including shelter – but only, I would maintain, if he cooperates in the extension of care by following the house rules.

Under Florida laws, it appears that a person in ISABELLE’s position can have her child declared a “child in need of care” and have the state step in to take over, but that is a long drawn-out process.

If I were her, I’d be calling his probation officer, asking what my options were and where I could get some help. And in light of the fact her son is 17 and a half and able to support himself, I would have zero compunction about kicking his ass out. This is not a child who does not have the sense and apparent ability to take care of himself. If he cannot follow the house rules he can LEAVE.

It does make me curious, though – what are the terms of his probation? If they included following the house rules, minding your parents, keeping a fixed address or holding down a job – he may well be violating probation. In that case, he’s already the state’s problem and it is doubly reasonable for ISABELLE to ask for some help in handling him. And if she was really nice, she could go talk to the probation department not becuase her son has already violated his probation but because he’s about to – something like “he’s not minding, he’s not cooperating in the house rules, I’m at my wits’ end and I’m about to kick him out, at which point he’ll be violating his probation.” If the son has a “come to Jesus” talk with the PO in which it’s explained to him that he can shape up and be cooperative or he can go to jail, maybe he’ll see the light a little bit.

But I would absolutely say “You obviously don’t like it here because you refuse to follow the basic rules of the house, so you need to find someplace else to live. You said you’d be out in four weeks, so have your arrangements made by then.”

This is all said with the awareness that this boy will be 18 in less than six months. If we were dealing with a younger child, or one who did not have a history of being able to find and keep a job (if he wants to), my answer would be very different.

129

Nope. I am Italian/French Canadian

My concern is I am responsible for him until he is 18.

130

GRECK, I think the idea that ISABELLE is culturally incapable of exercising some tough love with regard to her son both assumes facts about her we don’t know and is insulting to Latino culture – as if it requires you keep feeding and housing some adult free-loader who disrespects you and does nothing to contribute to the upkeep of himself or the household… You also wildly misread my posts and my position when you say I am encouraging her to “abandon” him, which is crap. Insisting that a nearly-emancipated minor who wants to be treated like an adult actually act like an adult is hardly “abandonment.”

I NEVER said she should “kick him out of her life.” YOU may have said that but I did NOT. I said she should kick him out of her HOUSE. That does not preclude further contact with him, support of an emotional variety, or, heck, even of a financial variety when he seems to understand that he’s going to have to change his behavior if he wants her help.

This is not an all-or-nothing proposition, where she has to cut him out of her life entirely if she insists he respect her. To the contrary, her position should be “I love you, and I want what’s best for you, but you simply cannot treat me or my house like this anymore. This is not a hotel, this is not a restuarant, and I am not a taxi service. If you can respect me and the rules of my house, then you can stay. If you can’t, then you need to go. I willl still love you either way.”

Hell’s bells, what do you suggest? She just continue to fork over food, shelter, and money because he’s too irresponsible to keep his job, too immature to follow the house rules, and too short-sighted to budget his money? Oh, that’s right, that’s what she has to do because she’s Latina. You guess.

I can’t make her follow my advice. At the end of the day, I don’t care if she does. But if it was my son, I would kick his ass out.

131

Call his probation officer, ISABELLE. At least talk to someone at the office. Tell them you need help, and they should be able to refer you to a program where you can at least talk to someone who might have some better ideas.

132

I’m not sure of his “condition” of probation as he is changing hands right now. He is going from “intense” probation to the Dept. Of Juvenile Justice Probation. The rules are going to be different.

The original probation stated that he lived at home, maintained an 8PM curfew, attended NA meetings weekly, did house chores, attended at least one college course per week, gave weekly drug analysis, permitted random room searches by the police, was in college full time or worked a minimum of 32 hours per week, gave a monthly oral report on NA literature (I think that’s it)

I was informed that his new probation officer will give him new rules to follow but was told to expect along the same lines of sanctions as previously directed by the Sherriff’s Dept. I have a call into the Dept. of Juvenile Justice as of this afternoon. I am waiting for a call back.

Somewhere along the line I think I was told that if he didn’t follow the rules from the Dept. of Juvenile Justice that they would return him to 'intense" probation.

While on intense probation a police officer comes to the house every 2 days at odd hours to check to make sure he has made curfew. Since no one has been around…he has taken advantage

133

i’m sorry, greck, but i think your advice here is just flat-out WRONG.

so far all that Isabelle has been doing HAS been “what makes her feel comfortable with herself”. and the results appear to royally suck.

trying to change your behaviors and reactions, PARTICULARLY in dysfunctional situations, is going to cause discomfort, Amen, Hallelujah. changing ANY habit causes a certain amount of discomfort. and this is one whopper of a change in behavior for Isabelle. i would have been shocked and surprised if she HADN’T second-guessed herself all night long. (although losing a night’s sleep certainly bites.)

BUT
IT
NEEDS
TO
BE
DONE
!

she’s got to learn to disengage from these parasitic twinings that exist between the two of them. biggest lessons i gleaned from Al-Anon: 1) always doing the same thing in the same circumstances, and expecting a different outcome, is the definition of insanity; 2) the only person you can actively change is YOU; 3) the other members of the dysfunctional relationship WILL NOT WANT YOU TO CHANGE (will, in fact, try every trick they can to push you back into the same role you always used to play); 4) the surest way to change how it all affects you is to change your attitude and reactions to what happens, AND TO STOP (in a loving manner) SUPPORTING THEIR DYSFUNCTIONAL BEHAVIOR (i.e., no lying to the boss, no “making everything right” when they screw things up.)

maintaining her “comfort zone” isn’t going to help either one of them, in the long run. either she’s going to learn to let go of him eventually, allowing him to learn life’s lessons even if it means taking the falls, or else they’ll may well have a bitter, mutually-resentful relationship between them for the rest of their unhappy lives.

134

Whatever happened to “living happily ever after?” Yeah that’s what I want! Give me a dose of that please.

And for the record I kicked my daughter out of the house!!!
I simply said “I love you but you are no longer welcome in my home” This happened when she was about the age of 19 or 20. The reason I kicked her out was because she was smoking pot and I caught her growing it at my house. I warned her 3x and on the last time I found it that was it. It hurt like hell but I had 3 other kids to worry about. Our relationship was very rocky for about 6 months but she finally came around. She now says it is the best thing that I could have done to her.

So I have the inner strength to kick 17 year Old out but I am worried about what I am responsibel for until he is 18.

135

Jodi, her son won’t be 18 for nearly another year, not “less than six months.”

I’m not saying I disagree with your hardline approach. If you peruse some of her other threads you’ll find at least one where I said pretty much the same thing and, in fact, called her on her inaction in pretty strong terms, as I recall. I don’t know if she “forgot” about that thread or just “conveniently” ignored what I posted because she didn’t like what I had to say (I was pretty much the first one in there who didn’t give her the “oh, poor pitiful you” song and dance), but she never came back to post in that thread again.

But throwing a minor child out on the street with no means of support or shelter is just plain bad advice. It’s parents like that who (even inadvertently) sic their unruly, disrespectful, law-breaking offspring on the rest of us in society. I think Isabelle has an obligation to help her son by any and all means necessary (INCLUDING calling his probation officer!!), as well as an obligation to the community not to let this idiot loose to wreak havoc on her neighbors (and all of us who pay taxes that will undoubtedly go toward supporting this loser).

Isabelle, at the very least, listen to Jodi about calling this kid’s probation officer. Do it NOW! And do it EVERY HOUR ON THE HOUR UNTIL YOU GET RESULTS. Given that I and my fellow citizens have a stake in this boy’s behaviour, I humbly request that you do something about this NOW.

Thank you.

136

Sorry I don’t know which thread you are speaking of but I usually stay pretty inter-active with my threads. Sorry if you felt I was neglecting your post. It wasn’t intentional. Even if I didn’t like the advice I think I would have said something.

I do not want any pity. I just want someone to give me the RIGHT awnser that will solve my problem RIGHT NOW. THIS MOMENT! I am frustrated and at witts end. I will gladly auction him off to the lowest bidder. Do I have any takers? He has good teeth. Stands 6’2" Is strong, good looking, the girls all love him.
He knows how to spend money, enjoys fine diningand can sell anything of no use to a homeless person.

137

Isabelle, you’ve been given the RIGHT answer by NUMEROUS people here. Let me see if I can make it any freaking clearer…

Get off the computer and

CALL HIS PROBATION OFFICER – RIGHT NOW!

And KEEP calling until you get some results!

Jesus, no wonder your son doesn’t listen – neither do you!

138

I understand this whole situation is extremely frustrating for you and your family but no one has a magic wand that will make him straighten up and be responsible RIGHT NOW. This problem did not happen overnight and it will not fix itself overnight.

It sucks he grew up without a dad. He needs to get over it. So do you. Either you did the best you could for him or you didn’t. It is irrelevant. You cannot reqind the clock and start over again - you can only work from here. 17 is not a baby anymore and he has to either adapt to live in this society or jail is not the worst thing that could happen to him. You have to stop giving him so much that he does not deserve and has not earned. But you know all this and it is hard and it is certainly not a route destined to earn you a popular win with your son. That’s too bad. Sometimes the road we have to take is a hard one and it hurts while we are on it.

There are a lot of things in life that are not fair. Either we can wait around and complain about them and see if a magic fairy will come and right all the unfairness in the world or we can do everything we can to deal with what is in our lives right now the best we can. I gave up waiting for the magic fairy many many years ago - he ain’t coming!

139

SHAYNA, when I’m wrong I admit I’m wrong and in this situation I was . . . possibly not 100% right. :slight_smile:

ISABELLE, SHAYNA is more the voice of reason than I. You probably can’t kick him out without emancipating him first – which you can do if you want to, but you have to go to court first.

BUT . . . the fact that he is BREAKING HIS PROBATION is a big, big deal and the probation department should be helping you. He is NOT working 32 hours a week, he is NOT meeting his curfew, he is NOT doing household chores. The fact that he is between probation officers is their problem, not yours. Talk to his old probation officer and ask who is being assigned it. Talk to the supervisor and ask when the reassignment will be taking place. Start calling, keep calling, and do not take no for an answer. The fact that you probably can’t wholesale throw him out into the street – as he so richly deserves – doesn’t mean your only choice is to have him in your house leeching off you and being disrespectful. Call probation EVERY DAY. TWICE a day even, until you get some help. And ask his new probation officer to work with you to get your son to shape up for as long as he remains with you.

No one can solve your problem except you. Your situation is a tough one, but no one can fix it but you.

140

And another thing, you can certainly argue to his old probation officer that your son’s case should NOT be reassigned AT ALL, because undoubtely the reason he is coming off intense probation and being scaled down to a lower level of supervision is because he was complying. Well, he’s not complying anymore, he’s breaking probation, so they shouldn’t be lessening his level of supervision anyway.