You know, that’s one of the funniest things I’ve read all day. People still use phrases like “ungodly pagan”?
Jesus Christmas, where the hell are these people coming from? Is the Internet Jackass Generator stuck on bigotry? How did the Straight Dope become the primary costumer for the IJG?
We’ve got deadbird and Sweet Willy stinking up the place over at GD and two --count 'em, TWO-- bigots giving each other handjobs right in this very thread.
They are like cockroaches, they keep multiplying and coming out of the woodwork. You can try pound some sense into them, but they’ve got that nasty, thick protective exoskeleton of ignorance for protection. Where’s the Raid?
Ok, two things. First, Jan’s book. Just look at the co-authors name. It is very descriptive.
Billy B. Baty
Second, Skemper. Let’s see, three posts all to this thread. All in support of Jan and his creative thought processes on social relations between human groups.
cough Sock Puppet or Ass? cough
:wally
But, to feed the troll, where in the bible does God give a guarantee of peace? Now, I am Christian enough to know that God would help, but we aren’t dealing some backwood tribesman who has never heard of God before. These people in Africa aren’t just sitting around a fire, with no clue as to politics, the problems in their country or the people in their world. These people are in the loop on the things that effect them. The days of being the “first white missionary to meet the natives” are over. No place is that behind, anymore.
And God won’t fix anything, because people like Mugabe don’t want peace, fairness or any thing the world populations considers “good” if it costs him one penny of what he wants. This isn’t about race, it is about one man or small group who wants power over the general population for personal services. This is truly the heart of what makes slavery. Slavery is not a black /white issue, it is a power issue. Africans had slaves of other African tribes, long before European people ever came close to Africa. Even then, it was a power issue. Any ruler with too much power, that is the ability to personally take your property and life, has enslaved their people.
To sum this up, the only people who can be free are people who want to be free. Jan, I believe you wanted a solution fro the western world? Here it is. The people need to take care of it themselves. May sound cold, but unless as a people they “buy” their freedom, nothing America does will last. Mugabe could easily be brought down be the people of his country. Half of them ay have to die to do this, but it would be the only lasting way. The price of freedom is blood. Look to the history of any country with what is perceived as a free country, and history will show the blood paid by the people to gain this freedom.
Hmmm, well. Guess I will step down from this high horse that I see to have gotten up on. Damn, start out with a small joke and it all rips loose.
Bhudda
Actually, I can assure you that Skemper is NOT Jan’s sock puppet.
http://www.africancrisis.org/default2.asp
His website-she posts in his guestbook, and his message board, and I have e-mails from each of them. They’re not the same person.
They’re just both nuts.
Yep, I’d better tell my non-Christian black friend to get out his Voodoo doll and start hexing you.
:rolleyes:
Err, being the smartest presidential candidate during the 2000 elections is, IMO, nothing to be proud of, since none of them would make a member of MENSA look like Homer Simpson.
To Guinastasia
Here is the First Amendment:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press; or the right of he people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
The Origins of the Amendment:
Remember: all that is needed to understand a certain phrase or clause in the Constitution is to apply what Alexander Hamilton called the “unsophisticated dictates of common sense.”
It is easily discerned that Article 1 of the Bill of Rights was lifted directly out of the Virginia State Constitution. The Virginia Constitution in its clause makes it plain that Article 1 was there to secure the position that no one Christian sect would have dominance over another Christian sect. General Christianity was considered the State religion. This clause was never meant to take Christianity out of government life. At the time this clause was written (both Virginia and Federal) there were no other established religions in Virginia or any other State or Colony.
Now some quotes form the founding fathers and court decisions:
United States Supreme Court, 1952 –“We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being … When the state encourages religious instruction or cooperates with religious authorities by adjusting the schedule of public events to sectarian needs, it follows the best of our traditions. For it then respects religious nature of our people and accommodates the public service to their spiritual needs. To hold that it may not, would be to find in the Constitution a requirement that the government show a callous indifference to religious groups. That would be preferring those who believe in no religion at all over those who do believe …We find no Constitutional requirement which makes it necessary for government to be hostile to religion and to throw its weight against efforts to widen the effective scope of religious influence.”
U. S. Supreme Court, Commonwealth v Nesbit, Lindenmuller v The People - identified actions in which the government did have legitimate right to intrude upon religion; these activities included human sacrifice, polygamy, bigamy, concubinage, incest, INFANTICIDE, parricide, advocation and promotion of immorality, etc. Such acts, even if perpetrated in the name of religion would be stopped by the government since according to the court they were “subversive of good order ... and were overt acts against good order.”
Note: The government was never to interfere with traditional religious practices outlined in “the Books of Law and the Gospel”, unless they were against good public order … [for this to happen somebody would have to pervert the law]. Also take note that the government had the right (power) to prevent the promotion of immorality; compare this court ruling with today’s court rulings on pornography that claim it’s a matter of free speech. Our founding fathers would have had the Larry Flint’s of this world locked up.
John Adams, Vice President under Washington and 2nd President of the United States - “The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were … the general principles of Christianity …now I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God … I could therefore safely say … that I believed they (people) would never make discoveries in contradiction to these general principles.”
Fisher Ames who provided the final wording for the First Amendment, which reads: “Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof …”
Fisher Ames was hailed one of America’s premier and most eloquent orators; called for “The Bible always to remain the principle textbook in America’s classrooms.”
James Madison proposed; “The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established.”
Supreme Court Justice James Iredel (appointed by Pres. Washington) - “It is never to be supposed that the people of America will entrust their dearest rights to persons who have no religion at all, or a religion materially different from their own (Christianity).”
Benjamin Morris, historian 1818-1867 – in one of his books he wrote; “The fundamental objects of the Constitution are in perfect harmony with the revealed objects of the Christian religion. Union, justice, peace, the general welfare, and the blessing of civil and religious liberty, are the objects of Christianity, and always secured under its beneficent reign. The State must rest upon the basis of religion, and it must preserve this basis, or itself must fall … this is a Christian Nation, first in name … The chief security and glory of the United States of America has been, is now, and will be forever, the prevalence and domination of the Christian faith."
Daniel Webster – “God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to defend it.” “Lastly, our ancestors established their system of government on morality and religious sentiment. Moral habits they believed, cannot safely be trusted on any other foundation than religious principle, nor any government be secure which is not supported by moral habits … Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens.”
Daniel Webster - “This is the book. I have read the Bible many times, and now make it a practice to read it through once a year. It is a book for all others – for lawyers as well as divines.”
Nathaniel Gorham, George Read and Richard Bassett delegates to the Continental Congress, and signers, helped draft state Constitutions requiring all state officials to profess their faith in God and Jesus Christ and the Christian religion (Delaware and Mass.)
Remember this: James Madison - “I entirely concur in the proprietary of resorting to the sense in which the Constitution was accepted and ratified by the nation. In that sense alone it is the legitimate Constitution …”
George Mason, father of the Bill of Rights - “ All men have an equal, natural and unalienable right to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that no particular sect or society of Christians ought to be favored or established by law in preference to others.”
Charles Carroll, one of the framers of the Bill of Rights and the only Roman Catholic signer of the Declaration, declared that the reason that he and many other founders had entered the Revolution was to ensure that all Christian denominations were placed on an equal footing - “To obtain religious as well as civil liberty I enter zealously into the Revolution, and observing the Christian religion divided into many sects, I founded the hope that no one would be so predominant as to become the religion of the State. That hope was thus early entertained, because all of them joined in the same cause, with few exceptions if individual.”
James Wilson, one of six men who signed both the Declaration and Constitution, a Supreme Court Justice, and one of the men that laid the foundation for the America jurisprudence system. He was also the second most active speaker at the Constitutional Convention – “Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants.”
Note: If religion and law are mutual, bound together, and law – God’s natural law – is the basis of our legal system [then] how can we separate church and state? Law is the basis of our Republic; it is the cornerstone of American government. Religion cannot be separated from the ‘American State’ because it is the basis for the state. Since our very form of government and our legal system were formed from, and based on, God’s natural law and the Bible, then how can we separate church from state? We cannot. The heart cannot be removed from the body without the corresponding death of that same body. However, our government may not impose a national church or prefer any Christian church over any other.
Abraham Baldwin, signer of the Constitution – “A free government … can only be happy when the public principle and opinions are properly directed – by religion and education.”
Noah Webster –“To Christianity we owe our free Constitutions of Government.”
Henry Laurens, Member of the Continental Congress and a delegate to the Constitutional Convention – “I had the honor of being one among many who framed that Constitution … In order effectually to accomplish these great ends, it is incumbent upon us to begin wisely and to proceed in the fear of God; and it is especially the duty of those who bare rule – to promote and encourage piety [respect for God] and virtue and to discountenance every degree of vise and immorality.”
Note: The Bill of Rights was designed to keep specific issues like religious expression out of the power of the Federal government and place them into the States where the citizens would have power and recourse against encroachments upon their liberties. In almost every State convention that adopted the Constitution, amendments to guard against the abuse of power were recommended. In almost every State Constitution the promotion of religion [Christianity] was one of the first duties of the State.
It is easily apparent to anyone who reads the words of our Founding Fathers that these same men who prohibited the establishment of religion (particular sects of Christianity) also encouraged religion. FACT: The Founding Fathers did not equate encouraging, promoting or endorsing religion as an establishment of it. The Congress, which passed the Bill of Rights, requested George Washington proclaim a day of “Public Thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts, the many and signal favors of Almighty God.”
You decide for yourself, whether George Washington, affectionately called the ‘father of his country’, and the majority of the Founding Fathers - or the courts of today - understand /understood ,the meaning of the Establishment Clause.
Alexander Hamilton sited the truth about mortal men - “Why has Government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without constraint …”
Note: At the time of the Declaration of Independence, Prof. Montesquieu was one of the most esteemed writers about government. From him came the separation of powers theory rooted in the Bible (Jeremiah 17:9) that man naturally tends toward corruption. A belief in God and His just reward or punishment, would be the basis of keeping government restrained. There is no morality or justice without God.
U.S. Supreme Court 1892 – “No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation (State or National) because this is a religious people … this is a Christian nation.”
President George Washington, in his Inaugural Address, REMINDED THE PEOPLE THAT - “ [T]he propitious [favorable] smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained.”
Note: Do you know that Washington’s Inaugural Address is no longer read in some of America’s schools? In the year 2000, a Federal district court in Kentucky ruled that speeches by George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Dwight D. Eisenhower, etc. cannot be taught in the public school system because they violate ‘the wall of separation of church and state’; the teaching of these writings would be unconstitutional.
The reason should be self-evident. The liberal Marxist/ Humanists don’t want us, or our children, to know we are a Christian nation; that our system of law came from God Himself – and if we are to continue as a nation, we must return to obedience to God. Remember the phrase ‘wall of separation of church and state’ does not appear in any of our founding documents – it does appear in the Russian Constitution!
John Hancock, signer – “The very existence of the Republic … depends much upon the public institutions of religion.”
The Northwest Ordinance (Federal law considered one of the four foundational or organic laws) requirements for statehood … declared; “religion, morality and knowledge being necessary to government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.” Our framers of the First Amendment and Constitution believed that teaching of religious principles (Christianity) was the most important duty of the state.
Excerpts from the Northwest Ordinance –July 13, 1787
It is hereby ordained and declared by the authority aforesaid, That the following articles shall be considered as articles of compact between the original States and the people and States in the said territory and forever remain unalterable, unless by common consent, to wit:
Article 1 – No person, demeaning himself in a peaceable and orderly manner, shall ever be molested on account of his mode of worship or religious sentiments, in the said territory.
Article 2 –The inhabitants of the said territory shall always be entitled to the benefits of the writ of habeas corpus, and of the trail by jury; of a proportionate representation in the legislature; and of judicial proceedings according to the course of the common law…
Article 3 –Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.
Daniel Webster, ‘defender of the Constitution’ asked, “What is an oath?” … “It is founded on a degree of consciousness that there is a power above us that will reward our virtues or punish our vises … our system of oaths in all our courts … are founded on or rest on Christianity and a religious belief. …There must be a firm conviction on a person’s mind that falsehood or perjury will be punished either in this world or the next or he cannot be admitted as a witness. If he has not this belief, he is disfranchised [not admitted].”
Note: Many States in the 1700 and early 1800’s would not let atheists testify in a court of law because they couldn’t swear an oath. Their testimony was not considered as valid.
James Madison –“Such a government [without an established religion] will be best supported by protecting every citizen in the employment of his [own] religion with the same equal hand which protects his person and his property; by neither invading the equal rights of any Sect [of Christianity], nor suffering any Sect to invade those of another.”
Note: Madison is called ‘the Father of the Constitution’-maybe he understood the 1st. Amendment. The duty of government is to protect our rights, given to us by God.
John Jay, member of the Continental Congress and original Chief Justice of the Supreme Court - “ Every member of the State ought diligently to read and to study the Constitution of his country … by knowing their rights, they will soon perceive when they are violated and be the better prepared to defend and assert them.”
A Section On:
Thomas Jefferson and ‘The Wall of Separation of Church & State’
Note: In 1947 U.S. Supreme Court based a decision on and introduced as evidence a “wall of separation between church and state”. The court heard a complaint that a public school reimbursed a public transit for the cost to bus both private and public school students. They based their decision mostly upon a private letter written in 1802 by Thomas Jefferson. The court ruled that public monies could not be spent on busing of children to private schools.
Current history books and professors call Thomas Jefferson a deist and claim he was against any government involvement in religion, and that he believed in total separation of church and state. They claim him as one of the least religious of the Founding Fathers. Let us take a look a Thomas Jefferson, using his own words. [Webster’s 1828 Dictionary definition of deist: one professes no form of religion, but follows the light of nature and reason, as his only guides in doctrine and practice.]
Thomas Jefferson, committed himself as President to pursuing what he believed to be the purpose of the First Amendment; [paraphrasing a long speech] not allowing the Episcopalians, Congregationalists, or any other denomination to achieve the “establishment of a particular form of Christianity.”
Note: In his letter to the Danbury Baptist Church, Jefferson did mention a wall of separation of Church and State but he also explained that this was to keep government from controlling religion, not religion from government. He went on to say that through religion government is “to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural rights in opposition to his social duties.” Natural rights were an important legal phrase in Jefferson’s day; natural rights included “that which the books of the law and the Gospel do contain.”
Natural rights then incorporated what God himself had guaranteed to man in the Scriptures. Natural rights meant that religious liberties were inalienable rights (God given and not to be taken away). Jefferson assured the Baptists that following their natural rights they would violate no social duty or governmental laws. He assured them that the issue of religious expression was above (out of the hands) of Federal jurisdiction. You will read the entire letter later in this lesson.
If Thomas Jefferson believed that a wall of separation of church and state existed that meant religion had to be kept out of government; then why would he, the very Sunday after writing to the Danbury Baptists, attend church with the largest congregation of Christians in America – the church met in the House of Representatives of the U.S. Congress. He attended that church virtually every Sunday for the next seven years of his presidency. Thousands joined together to worship God there each Sunday.
Proof we have forgotten our history: Thomas Jefferson was in France while the Constitution was written; in fact he did not return until one month after the Bill of Rights was added.
Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Dr. Joseph Priestly, correcting information Priestly was planning to publish, said this - “… and all say it was yourself more than any other individual, that planned and established it [i.e… The Constitution]. I was in Europe when the Constitution was planned, and never saw it till after it was established.”
Thomas Jefferson - “God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure if we have lost the only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
Thomas Jefferson - “Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in any religious discipline has been delegated to the general [Federal] government. It must then rest with the states.”
Thomas Jefferson – “Those who labor in the Earth are the chosen people of God … whose breasts He has made His peculiar deposit for substantial and genuine virtue.”
Thomas Jefferson - “I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”
Thomas Jefferson – “ I consider the doctrines of Jesus as delivered by Himself to contain the outlines of the sublimest system of morality that has ever been taught but I hold in the most profound detestation an execration the corruptions of it that have been invented …”
Thomas Jefferson - “I am a desciple of the Lord Jesus Christ”.
Note: As President, Thomas Jefferson signed bills which appropriated funds for chaplains in Congress and in the armed forces. In ‘ The Articles of War’ 1806, he “earnestly recommended to all officers and soldiers, diligently to attend divine services”.
In 1816 Jefferson wrote in his own handwriting “a wee book” for his personal study entitled “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, Extracted Textually From the Gospels in Greek, Latin, French and English”. A table of contents titled, “A Table of the Text From the Evangelists Employed in this Narrative and the Order of Their Arrangement”.
Thomas Jefferson – “A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian; that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.” Note: This quote came from a catalog Jefferson had written listing all the books in his library; it was written on the title page describing the first works in his library, his own Bible, a well-worn four volume set.
Thomas Jefferson declared that religion is; “Deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support.”
Read the epitaph on Jefferson’s tombstone, which he wrote himself; “Here lies buried Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence, author of the Statutes for Religious Freedom in Virginia and father of the University of Virginia.”
While he was a member of the Virgina legislature, Thomas Jefferson drafted religious liberty laws and the Statutes for Religious Freedom:
-
A bill to punish Sabbath breakers -
A bill to punish religious worship disturbers -
A bill appointing days of Fasting and Thanksgiving -
A bill to fine ministers if they failed to perform Divine Services on the appointed days -
Virgina Statute for Religious Freedom
Thomas Jefferson - “I have always said, I always will say, that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands.
-
The Doctrines of Jesus are simple and tend to the happiness of man. -
There is only one God, and He is all perfect. -
There is a future state of rewards and punishment. -
To love God with all the heart and thy neighbor as thyself is the sum of all. These are the great points on which to reform the religion of the Jews.”
Thomas Jefferson – “I am for freedom of Religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendance of one sect over another…”
Thomas Jefferson’s Prayer for the Nation - "Almighty God, who has given us this good land for our heritage; we humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy favor and glad to do Thy will. Bless our land with honorable industry, sound learning and pure manners. Save us from violence, discord and confusion; from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way.
Defend our liberties and fashion into one united people the multitudes brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues.Endow with the spirit of wisdom those to whom in Thy name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that through obedience to Thy law, we may show forth Thy praise among the nations of the earth.
In the time of prosperity, fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in days of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail;
All of which we ask through our Lord. Amen"
NOTE: From the Heritage Foundation, read in Washington at their annual conference December 9, 1998.
While he was president, Thomas Jefferson was also chairman of the Board Of Education in Washington D.C. … He insisted on two books, and only two books, to be taught in the public schools –The Bible and Watts Hymnal.
Note: In 1904, the fifty-seventh Congress, in an effort to restrain unethical behavior, voted; “That there be printed and bound … for the use of Congress, 9,000 copies of Thomas Jefferson’s ‘Morals of Jesus of Nazareth’ … 3,000 copies for the use of the Senate and 6,000 copies for the use of the House.”
“I personally feel this action should be repeated for today’s politicians - I just wonder if they would actually read it.” Joseph R. Larson
There are more religious quotes and actions of Jefferson, but I think you can now get the drift. You can either believe Thomas Jefferson himself, or today’s educational elite.
Guinastasia
Now that you are calling me nuts, I know that you are running out of ammunition. Now I think I have proved that America was founded as a Christian country. Get me some quotes from the founding fathers to prove me otherwise. Note the quote from Charles Caroll, the only Catholic signer of the Declaration.
Love,
SandyYou know what’s sad?
Your post just made me really freakin’ glad I’m not American.
I’d like to apologize on behalf of thinking Americans for this unfortunate occurance.
Even if (and I do mean if) it was, it certainly isn’t anymore.
Things change.
Racism goes out of fashion.
Deal with it.
barf
and, of course, what you fail to point out is that one thing our FF’s were absolutely fanatical about was the concept of “religious freedom”. ya, know that whole amendament to the constitution thing?
go figure.
Um, Sandy, I’d like to see things from your point of view-unfortunately, I’m afraid I can’t fit my head that far up my own ass.
:eek:
We really, really need the jaw dropping smilie. Bit time. Either that, or the little guy whose hair stands on end.
(Or dammit, can’t we have Smashie back?)
Anyhoo-first, to Sandy-um, cite?
Oh gosh. I think we have to shut down the SDMB now. EVERYTHING HAS BEEN ANSWERED! WE NOW KNOW THE TRUTH!!!
Sheesh. This is like a train wreck.
BTW, Sandy, um, I hate to break it to you, but um, Jesus wasn’t a Christian. Did you know that? Isn’t that AWFUL?
He was-get ready-a JEW.
Oh my god! What will we do NOW???
Where oh WHERE is Polycarp? sigh
And we thought Wildest Bill was bad…
Folks, I’m stunned. I am seriously, SERIOUSLY stunned. BTW, this person has told me that she actually has a MASTERS in-get this-EDUCATION. Oy vey.
My head hurts. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
Um…weren’t some of the FF, I dunno-Deists?
Ouch…like, um…wow.
So, Skemper, with your commanding grasp of Bartlett’s Familiar Quotations, perhaps you can answer a question for me: If the Founding Fathers were such ardent Christians, why isn’t Jesus mentioned once in the Declaration of Independence? If the framers of the Constitution intended this to be a Christian nation, why do they go to such laborious lengths to avoid specifically identifying God in Christian terms? If they meant this to be a Christian nation, why did you have to quote everything Thomas Jefferson wrote except the Constitution of the United States to prove your point?
Frankly, if I went through all the writings of so prodigious an intellectual as Jefferson and qouted as selectivly and without regard to context as you do, I could prove that he was a worshipper of Great Cthulhu. Nice try, David Duke, but no cigar.
Have you ever heard of a little thing called the 14th Amendment, Skemper? You know, that thing that makes the 1st Amendment applicable against the states?
Also, I want a cite to that alleged Kentucky district court opinion throwing Washington’s Inaugural Address out of the schools. I strongly suspect you have completely misrepresented whatever the court said, if indeed it said anything at all. And make it snappy, lest I conclude you have no credibility at all.
Well, whatever the source of South Africa’s problems is, it isn’t lack of Christianity. After all, 68% of South Africa is Christian. Zimbabwe is 45% Christian, which isn’t quite the majority but it’s still a significant part of the population.
Well, even if your statistics are right, it is 32% of SA and the 55% of Rhodesia that is causing trouble. It does not take alot to poison the brew. Also, just because someone calls himself a Christian does not make him one. In fact, these regimes persucute the black Christians worse than the whites. Here is a link from Jan’s site that shows pictures of what these monsters do to missionaries and to blacks that did not support the regime. I warn you the pictures are gruesome, so look at them at your own risk. http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/N2524.Interlincx/B980014.3;sz=468x60;siteid=C319;ord=46319408?
I’ll second that one, Minty. I’d like a cite for that as well.
sigh
BTW, you STILL haven’t answered my question-what about Christ himself? He was NOT a White European.
Or the fact about J. Edgar Hoover…
Mein gott! That’s horrible!
Such godforsaken things as:
“Register a domain name for 3 years - includes 1 FREE year!”
I’m shocked, shocked.
Hey, I got some quotes for ya. All bolding is mine.
“As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion; . . .” - Article XI, Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary (Treaty of Tripoli), unanimously approved by Congress and signed by President John Adams
“[Ashbel Green, Presbyterian minister] often said in my hearing, though very sorrowfully, of course, that while Washington was very deferential to religion and its ceremonies, like nearly all the founders of the Republic, he was not a Christian, but a Deist.” - Arthur B. Bradford, Presbyterian minister
“Washington was no infidel, if by infidel is meant unbeliever. Washington had an unquestioning faith in Providence and, as we have seen, he voiced this faith publicly on numerous occasions. That this was no mere rhetorical flourish on his part, designed for public consumption, is apparent from his constant allusions to Providence in his personal letters. There is every reason to believe, from a careful analysis of religious references in his private correspondence, that Washington’s reliance upon a Grand Designer along Deist lines was as deep-seated and meaningful for his life as, say, Ralph Waldo Emerson’s serene confidence in a Universal Spirit permeating the ever shifting appearances of the everyday world.” - Paul F. Boller, Jr., Washington and Religion
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” - James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments
“Some books against Deism fell into my hands. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short I soon became a perfect Deist.” - Benjamin Franklin, his autobiography
“No man on earth has less taste or talent for criticism than myself, and the least and last of all should I undertake to criticize works on the Apocalypse (Revelations). It was between fifty and sixty years since I read it and then I considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy, nor capable of explanation than the incoherence of our own nightly dreams. I was, therefore, well pleased to see, in your first proof sheet, that it was said to be not the production of St. John, but of Cerinthus a century after the death of that apostle. Yet the change of the author’s name does not lessen the extravagancies of the composition; come they from whomsoever they may, I cannot so far respect them as to consider them as an allegorical narration of events, past or subsequent. There is not coherence enough in them to countenance any suite of national ideas. You will judge, therefore, from this how impossible I think it that either your explanation or that of any man in ‘the Heavens above or on the earth beneath’ can be a correct one. What has no meaning admits no explanation!” - Thomas Jefferson: In His Own Words, page 360
“RELIGION: Your reason is now mature enough to examine this object. In the first place divest yourself of all bias in favor of novelty and singularity of opinion. Indulge them in any other subject rather than that of religion. It is too important, and the consequences of error may be too serious. On the other hand shake off all the fears and servile prejudices under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. You will naturally examine first the religion of your own country. Read the bible then, as you would read Livy or Tacitus. The facts which are within the ordinary course of nature you will believe on the authority of the writer, as you do those of the same kind in Livy and Tacitus. The testimony of the writer weighs in their favor in one scale, and their not being against the laws of nature does not weigh against them. But those facts in the bible which contradict the laws of nature, must be examined with more care, and under a variety of faces. Here you must recur to the pretensions of the writer to inspiration from god. Examine upon what evidence his pretensions are founded, and whether that evidence is so strong as that its falsehood would be more improbable than a change in the laws of nature in the case he relates. For example in the book of Joshua we are told the sun stood still several hours. Were we to read that fact in Livy or Tacitus we should class it with their showers of blood, speaking of statues, beasts, etc. But it is said that the writer of that book was inspired. Examine therefore candidly what evidence there is of his having been inspired. The pretension is entitled to your inquiry, because millions believe it. On the other hand you are astronomer enough to know how contrary it is to the law of nature that a body revolving on its axis as the earth does, should have stopped, should not only by that sudden stoppage have prostrated animals, trees, buildings, and should after a certain time have resumed its revolution, and that without a second general prostration. Is this arrest of the earth’s motion, or the evidence which affirms it, most within the law of probabilities? You will next read the new testament. It is the history of a personage called Jesus. Keep in your eye the opposite pretensions 1. of those who say he was begotten by god, born of a virgin, suspended and reversed the laws of nature at will, and ascended bodily into heaven: and 2. of those who say he was a man of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions to divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition by being gibbeted according to the Roman law which punished the first commission of that offense by whipping, and the second by exile or death.” - Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Peter Carr
"Every person, of whatever religious denomination he may be, is a Deist in the first article of his Creed. Deism, from Latin Deus, God, is the belief of a God, and this belief is the first article of every man’s creed.
"It is on this article, universally consented to by all mankind, that the Deist builds his church, and here he rests. Whenever we step aside from this article, by mixing it with articles of human invention, we wander into a labyrinth of uncertainty and fable, and become exposed to every kind of imposition by pretenders to revelation.
"But when the divine gift of reason begins to expand itself in the mind and calls man to reflection, he then reads and contemplates God and His works, and not in the books pretending to be revelation. The creation is the Bible of the true believer in God. Everything in this vast volume inspires him with sublime ideas of the Creator. The little and paltry, and often obscene, tales of the Bible sink into wretchedness when put in comparison with this mighty work.
“The Deist needs none of those tricks and shows called miracles to confirm his faith, for what can be a greater miracle than the creation, and his own existence?” - Thomas Paine
“The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion. Not any thing can be studied as a science, without our being in possession of the principles upon which it is founded; and as this is not the case with Christian theology, it is therefore the study of nothing.” - Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, page 187
“It is only in the Creation that all our ideas and conceptions of a Word of God can unite. The Creation speaks a universal language, independently of human speech or human language, multiplied and various as they be. It is an ever-existing original, which every man can read. It cannot be forged; it cannot be counterfeited; it cannot be lost; it cannot be altered; it cannot be suppressed. It does not depend upon the will of man whether it shall be published or not; it publishes itself from one end of the earth to the other. It preaches to all nations and to all worlds; and this Word of God reveals to man all that is necessary for man to know of God.” - Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
“Those who invalidate reason, ought seriously to consider, whether they argue against reason with or without reason; if with reason, then they establish the principle, that they are laboring to dethrone, but if they argue without reason, (which, in order to be consistent with themselves, they must do) they are out of the reach of rational conviction, nor do they deserve a rational argument.” - Ethan Allen, Reason: The Only Oracle of Man
“Such people as can be prevailed upon to believe, that their reason is depraved, may easily be led by the nose, and duped into superstition at the pleasure of those, in whom they confide, and there remain from generation to generation; for when they throw away the law of reason, the only one which God gave them to direct them in their speculations and duty, they are exposed to ignorant or insidious teachers, and also to their own irregular passions, and to the folly and enthusiasm of those about them, which nothing but reason can prevent or restrain; nor is it a rational supposition that the commonality of mankind would ever have mistrusted, that their reason was depraved, had they not been told so, and it is whispered about, that the first insinuation of it was from the Priests.” - Ethan Allen, Reason: The Only Oracle of Man
Okay, while I’m sure a number of the founding fathers were Christian, some of the quotes he gave seem wierd to me, given other things they are said to have said. Has one of us got a bad source, or are we both reading too much into words from men long-dead?
“The manifest object of the men who framed the institutions of this country, was to have a State without religion, and a Church without politics – that is to say, they meant that one should never be used as an engine for any purpose of the other, and that no man’s rights in one should be tested by his opinions about the other. As the Church takes no note of men’s political differences, so the State looks with equal eye on all the modes of religious faith. … Our fathers seem to have been perfectly sincere in their belief that the members of the Church would be more patriotic, and the citizens of the State more religious, by keeping their respective functions entirely separate.”
-Chief Justice of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Jeremiah S. Black, from a 1856 speech on religious liberty
“Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between church and state.’”
-Hugo L. Black, U.S. Supreme Court Justice, majority opinion in Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947)
“The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach.”
-Hugo L. Black, U.S. Supreme Court Justice, majority opinion in Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947), last words
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The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature … [In] the formation of the American governments … it will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of heaven … These governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
-John Adams, second President of the United States, quoted from A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1788.
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved – the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.
This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.
-John Adams
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Wasn’t it under his Presidency that the US signed a treaty which included the line “the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”?
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The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew, Peter Carr.
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82
I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology.
-Thomas Jefferson
Oh, and someone he seemingly failed to mention, does that mean he really wasn’t a Christian?
When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
-Benjamin Franklin
Edit: See Protesilaus got there first. Hey ho.
You sick twisted fuck. Thomas Jefferson, author of The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, and one of the primary framers of the constitution, was a firm believer in the separation of church and state. He sought to provide all people the freedom to worship as they saw fit. Jefferson:
Just because Jefferson and the founding fathers largely held Christian beliefs, let us not so be so bold as to assume they would compel others to share them. The colonists arrived on the shores of N. America to escape religious persecution (among other factors) and the founding fathers were not about to commit hypocrisy.